Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I have recently purchased the Dark Elf, High Elf, and Lizardmen Army books for 7th edition, I intend on buying more books for 7th edition, catch up on what is up in 7th Edition and then decide from there what is for me as I get back into this game of Warhammer.
One thing that is bothering me is something I was told. I was commenting on a proposed chaos demon army list that from 6th Edition knowledge did not conform to what I was seeing and was told that in 7th, Chaos is no longer allowed to mix and match their army lists with Beasts/Demons/Warriors.
Now I would not have a problem with this, if there was in "In Universe" explanation for it. For example, after the Storms of Chaos campaign was over, if the Dragon Ogre Shaggoths had all of a sudden stood up and declared that Chaos is their enemy and that they the Dragon Ogre Shaggoths are the direct respresentative of the Ancient Dragons that existed on the world before the Old Ones....and if all Beastmen everywhere renounced the Chaos Gods. If that had happened, I would have had no problem with applying to 7th Edition army lists that Beasts no longer are "with Chaos".
But as someone whom still has his 5th edition books, and was reading on the history, it is clear that they are revising history to make it look like there was never any 'cooperations' between Demons/Warriors/Beasts ever. Even direct times where Beast Lords and Chaos Warriors and greater demons are involved, I can see the revising of history directly in the Dark Elf and High elf books, where it makes it seem like it never happened.
Is that being too "up and tighty" about the rules or history? I won't deny that it just does not seem Chaos if there is not some mix-and-matching. I just can't imagine a Khorne themed chaos army that does not have BloodLetters, Chaos Warriors, Chaos Knights, and a Bloodthirster on it for example
Hmmm, on the one hand I agree with you. From my memories of earlier editions of the Chaos Army Book, it did seem really characterful to have Daemons and Mortals in the armies together, and you're right in that it's hard to imagine a Chaos army without both.
But on the other hand I can sort of make sense of it. Daemons would have their own agenda, surely, their own desire to destroy or dominate the world or whatever it is they're after. So why would they lower themselves to working with mere mortals to achieve their aims?
But then again, the Chaos Gods often favour their champions with gifts, do they not? So it doesn't make sense to completely remove the degree of cooperation between the factions of Chaos.
Then again, it might just be something that was overlooked. I've noticed GW often then to focussing on a specific period of the armies' history when they work on a new book, and we all know they often make mistakes so they may just have done it unintentionally.
I dunno. To be honest I haven't been keeping all that up to date with changes, and thus can't really decide whether it's a good or bad idea. I do tend to like things left the way they are, though, unless the new version is an obvious improvement.
I agree. I had actually seriously considered a mixed army, but I was still in the planning stages when they switched it around. (Which is frankly WAY better than switching right after I bought the models.)
As far as an explanation goes, the best explanation I can give is thus...
Beastman 'Phoenix' is walking through the woods, being all for Chaos and stuff. He then spots the chaos chosen mortal 'DavidWC04'. He says to himself, "Those humans are weak and pathetic compared to my hairy hide. There's no way I'd let one of those pretenders into my awesome herd." Of course, DavidWC04 hears this with his mutated good ears and cries out, "Why, you beastmen are far from the chosen of Chaos, for it is we, mortal men who hold the most favor. You are far too ugly to be the gods' favorite." By now both Chaos champions are charging each other ready to kill one another.
Other than the need to reference mods, this story describes that it can best be justified that the three chaos powers (four if you count Chaos Dwarfs) simply see themselves as better than the others and have no respect for anything otuside their respective faction. Only when some big bad event like Storm of Chaos happens do they unite. Of course, this is not the way things were, but that's the best I can think of.
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.
Generally it takes an exceptionally powerful Chaos Lord to round up the disparate elements of a human horde, ;et alone forcing follwers from dark forests and from the Chaos realm to follow him. I disgaree with the restrcitions whereby they are all treated as non-allied armies, but I would like to see framework to act as a catch-all Chaos Horde - perhaps repalcing Rare choices with choices from another book like Dogs Of War.
Geographically, a Beasts army represents the marauding warbands from the forests. That is not to say there are no Beastmen in the wastes, nor that there are no warriors in the forests.. much like saying that there ARE Empire armies that contain nothing but cannon, and Bretonnian peasant armies. Froma Game balance perspective, it's easier to limit your degress of freedom in an army. If you have a Warriors list, and then bring in say Tuskgor chariots and Blood Letters, you are replacing a unit in an list with a unit from another list, and need to refactor accordingly. Rather than give Chaos players that much tactical flexibility (which isn;t a bad thing IMHO) GW designers opted for a single book solution. They have ditched the allies concept in lists, and now treat the three Chaos lists as disticnt armies, why should mean more variation in each list and more models and specialist units....
Join the LO army system! http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...t&uniqueid=910
I am sure this was all considered from a business aspect point of view, where this decision to "limit" the interchangability of Chaos was done on the basis of A) 3 army books to sell instead of 2; and people will buy more models of one list then some here and there for 3 lists.
be that as it may, obviously I KNOW that in campaign style settings, they will relent and allow mix-and-matched Chaos Armies, for example, Archaon having disparate units at his command; or an Egrim Van Horstman list that is demon of Tzeenecht as well as Warriors in them.
I can see some reason to limit beastmen to be sure ,and think my "The Dragon Ogre Shaggoths declare the 4 chaos gods an abomination to nature and how the Ancient Dragon's of Warhammer have endowed us" and all beastmen everywhere agree and turn on Chaos, I would find that infinitely more palatable.
I don't think that it was done for a business purpose. It would have been far better for business to vastly overpower the list to sell more of it (Vampires, DarkElves) and then produce 3 separate books with the option to mix armies, providing of course that you have the correct book to reference the units.
I think that it was done for balance. Imagine, being able to mix Marauder Horsemen with Beastmen Skirmishers based around an anvil of Blood Letters. It would be infinitely difficult to balance the list, and it would be incredibly difficult for other players to keep track of what exactly their fighting.
I don't think that it's really a matter that they never fought together, or that they don't ever fight together, I think it's actually a matter of location. Chaos Warriors descend from the North, Beastmen already live in the Old World, and the Daemons attack up from the South. For that reason, an average small skirmish or day of battling really doesn't see a mixture of armies, not to mention the inner strife of the armies. In large campaigns, they can set themselves aside for the greater cause, but on a day to day basis they're going to look at eachother as another enemy to fight against.
My friends and I are currently in the midst of planning a massive game that features a Daemon, Warriors, and Dwarves and Orks (Chaos Dwarves) facing off against the Dwarves, Empire, HighElves, and Lizardmen. It's intended to be a bring'n'share battle to get some new players converted within our RPG/TTG club. A battle report will be written of course!
Imagine if you will, that in the aftermath of the unsuccessful(!) Storm of Chaos, all the evil elements started blaming each other for the failiures;
Daemons saw their Mortal auxiliaries as weak, dying too quickly or running when the going got tough. They only want souls. All else is naught.
Mortals saw Daemons as selfish and destructive, and Beasts as too unreliable. Their goal is enslavement and overlordship.
Beasts saw Daemons as too petty and unconcerned, and Mortals as too obsessed. Plunder drives these fickle beings.
Nobody talks anymore, that's the problem. At least until the next fruitcake comes along and punches everyone repeatedly until they give in to his demands...
Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
But the thing is, that is way Chaos had always been. It leads to some real nasty stuff.I think that it was done for balance. Imagine, being able to mix Marauder Horsemen with Beastmen Skirmishers based around an anvil of Blood Letters. It would be infinitely difficult to balance the list, and it would be incredibly difficult for other players to keep track of what exactly their fighting.
For example one time I was taking a 2000 point (5th edition) Skaven army and they knew I was coming in with it being led by Grey Seer Thanqual on a Screaming Bell.
So my chaos opponent came with a Khorne Themed Chaos Army.
Yes, he had Bloodletters, Chaos Knights, Chaos Warriors and a unit of Khorne Minotaurs.
Made it a pretty tuff fight, but my Skaven as I recall barely prevailed.
But that was the nature of the game anyway.