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Yesterday I participated in a 2,000pt tournament held at my friendly neighborhood Rogue Trader. There was another huge showing of 12 people (this was maximum capacity for the current arrangement, down 1 table from last time). I carried a Warriors of Chaos army located HERE (Let's have another go: 2K Tourney list). There were 3 other WoC players, as well as a TK player, OK player, O&G player, Skaven, Dwarves, DoC, HE, and 2 Lizardmen players.
The tournament was a themed tournament, which is something that my store is becoming known for. To celebrate the release of the new LM armybook, the tournament was a “Return to Lustria”. There were special pieces of terrain involved:
Bogs: the flat stands that we use to mark the outlines of a wood, without trees. They count as difficult terrain, but Lizardmen may use their “aquatic” rule to bypass them. They do not provide cover, or block line of sight.
Dense Foliage: 3” and 5” radius stands of trees which are assumed to be infinitely high (can’t fly over) and very dense. They were difficult terrain, but also blocked LoS completely.
First- let me tell you that this is not a boastful report. I had my army completely shattered and handed to me in a cheap paper bag. But it’s being (Our list sucks)argued in our forums that WoC can’t be played competitively. I’m just arguing my findings. Please though- keep your criticism of my playing here, and your criticism of the army/game/playstyle/book etc. in the appropriate threads.
So without further ado...
Game 1: WoC vs. Skaven (massacre, Skaven favor)
Special Rule: Drain Magic- roll a die at the start of each turn. This number is removed from any Casting Dispell attempt, as per the High Elf ‘Drain Magic’ spell.
This Skaven player went on to take 1st place, as a very smart but also very shrewd and almost rules-lawyering general. When we rolled to place terrain, he placed the trees and bogs along the fronts of both deployment zones, and although I tried to place cover in the board center as best I could, it just wasn’t enough.
When the game began, he had a 6man Jezzail team, 2 Ratling Guns, a unit of skirmishers, Globadiers, WL cannon, a Caster Lord, and 2 Lvl2 Casters.
Magic was pretty severely hindered by the Drain, especially since it seemed that every time I rolled a spell or dispell, it had numbers removed. He rarely tried to cast, because he was too afraid to fail and hand dice to Villitch. However, his shooting still worked fine, and my army never made it to his lines. My hounds were killed by ratling gun fire, my knights were baited into a combat against Slaves, my Marauder Horsemen were gunned down by more ratling fire. The WL cannon sniped Villitch, and my warriors were march blocked. My marauders were killed off by a unit of Rat Ogres. I was left with a good portion of my army alive, but I’d done precious little damage to his army. In fact, Misfires, Miscasts, and a bouncing Contagion spell had caused him to deal himself more damage than I had.
Game 2: WoC vs. DoC (massacre, DoC favor)
Special Rule: Idols- no table quarters, instead there are 3 idols equally space on the center of the table, each worth 100vp.
This game looked quite promising. One of the other WoC players had just smashed this guy’s army. He was friendly, I’d played him before, and he took 3rd in the competition. He fielded a healthy unit of BloodLetters with a Herald on a Juggernaught. Beside them was a fair sized unit of Plague Bearers with a Herald BSB on a Palanquin. He also fielded a Herald of Tzeench in a unit of Horrors, 2 units of Flamers, and 2 units of fliers (not sure what they are) and 2 units of FleshHounds. He was very fast, and very maneuverable. I placed terrain to try and protect my flanks, and then prepared to sit back and pepper him with magic.
This actually all worked out just fine, until I became too confident in my “Cruise Missile Marauder” unit, and tried to set up a charge against his Flesh Hounds. I misjudged how fast those hounds could move though, and he charged me and slaughtered me, bringing him behind my army. I prepared to charge him in the flank with my Warshrine, but that just tied him up for a few turns trying to kill it. I made the same mistake charging my Knights against his BloodLetters, only to be butchered in two turns and then have him crash into my Chosen. My marauders were killed off by a combined charge from Flamers and Horrors, and my warriors went down when he collapsed most of his army onto them.
It had been going well, as I had been targeting him with magic and smashing his maneuverable units and then trying to set him up for a charge. I felt that this was the second most successful game of the day.
Game 3: WoC vs. Lizardmen (massacre- Lizardmen)
Special Rule: Torrential Downpour- as Rainlord, except that instead of regular move restriction, each unit has a -1 to their total movement value. This meant that Warriors only moved 3, and marched 6.
Also a very successful game, however I made a mistake when selecting terrain. I planned to deploy in a corner this time, and he built a “marsh fort” along one side. It slipped my mind that skinks are aquatic, and I thought that it would make a good wall for my army. It did, but I was on the wrong side of the wall. He closed off the mouth of the “fort” and forced me to either fight his army, or slog through the marshes at a ridiculously slow pace. I opted to just gun it for the opening, hoping to engage half of his army with all of mine. He cast Mistress of the Marsh several times with his Slaan, but I usually let it go and continued to simply outpace my army. He was locking me down to fight skinks, and as we all know- they would be doomed, while their shooting was inneffective against the rain and my armor.
For the first 3 turns I had his army on the ropes, as I was finally able to cast successful Gateways that he was forced to dispell. Villitch took 5 dice from one of his failed dispells, and actually cast every remaining Tzeentchian spell except for Pandaemonium with them, all successful. I was trying to get a functional casting of Steed of Shadows through my book to make use of the “hero cannon (the exalted hero cannon. yes a cannon that shoots exalted heroes instead of bullets)”, but I was unable to do so. LM have a bound spell with the same effect however, and it was ultimately a JSoD who unsuspectingly took down Villitch. At that point, he began to tarpit my army, cast several more spells, and finally just collapse on me. My knights were gunned down by the bogs where they had been slowed then hit with a Skink/Kroxy unit, my Marauders suffering a similar fate. My chosen were hit by Kroxigors, and my Warriors found themselves on the recieving end of a charging Stegadon. What had been a good game, quickly deteriorated after losing just 1 of my casters. Of course, he rock-dropped my hounds, and then baited my Marauder Cavalry all game with a unit of Terradons.
The final scores left me in absolute last place, which is irritating after always taking places in the upper half of the listings, and having a 2nd place victory under my belt as well. The other WoC players posted up similar results, with only 1 of us cracking into the top 7. The medal standings were
-Daemons of Chaos
I have determined my next course of action will be to paint my Vampire Counts, and purchase more of them so that my Res-heavy army can function properly, while simultaneously building a full mounted Chaos army. Ideally, the full Cavalry will be a somewhat better choice, as I’m used to playing heavy cavalry forces with my Elves.
I have to say... I think you lost badly because you're playing the wrong army.
If you want to sit back and hide in a corner go Empire, maybe Dwarfs or somesuch. Chaos Warriors do not hide in corners, if you want to win build an army designed to take the fight to your opponent (and then take the fight to the enemy!), take Conan's advice.
"Conan! What is best in life?"
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of the women."
Hiding in corners is for weaklings. Any turn where there is no close combat phase is a bad turn for WoC.
All mounted is a good way to go, I field 4 units of 6 Khorne Cav and they smash almost everything in their path, get lots and lots of dogs to act as shields and charge blockers etc and you will do well (I field 7 units of dogs).
Last edited by Drachen Jager; April 15th, 2009 at 05:53.
At the Newbie: Actually, I will tell you that running headlong is NOT the best way to play certain combat armies. The reason that I was willing to hold my army back in the second game was because I actually outmagicked a DoC army. The guy's army focused on short range shooting, and lethal hand to hand, alongside a deadly tarpit unit. WoC like combat, and as long as the enemy is willing to come and get some, I see no point in wasting chances to soften him with magic first.
And yes- i actually play several armies: VC*, HE*, WE*, O&G, Empire, Brettonia, Dwarves,
DoW, and of course my WoC*. All of the asterisked armies have been taken to tournaments and done well, save for my Warriors. Thank you though for the vote of confidence on the mounted list.
David: to help you on your quest for knowledge, i offer this-
I saw that 10man units of KNIGHTS was a big theme for the armies. 2 of the other 3 armies fielded atleast 1 massive unit of knights. Also, warriors with 2x weapons seemed to be the order of the day. Only 1 of us fielded a JuggerLord, and nobody went with discs. There were also NO daemon princes in attendance, even within the DoC list. Granted, none of us did noticeably well, but that was the order of the day for the warriors: plate armies.
Anyway, I question the entire point of this thread. You bring a very sub-par list to a tournament, admit to making a bunch of mistakes, and end up doing poorly. Then you make some silly claims that WoC can't be competitive and that you're going to start playing a VC list. Eh?
WoC are fine. Your list needs work. Your playing tactics might, too, if that report was a normal thing and not just a bad day.
That's uncalled for.
If you'd like to join and participate in the community of LO, good, but this is not the way to do it. You're jumping to conclusions about an established and respected member of the LO community.
All of us, please keep posts positive and constructive. Constructive criticism, that's a good thing. Trading insults, not so much.
Last edited by DavidWC09; April 15th, 2009 at 17:15.
I posted my list up several weeks before the tournament. I had another thread linking to it, and then the week of the tournament I put another link to it in another thread. I was asking for list advice, and I really couldn't get any. I mean- I got a few responses, but I guess everyone just pulled their punches since nobody came out and said "the list is crap- go fix it".
And I didn't make any silly claims about them not being competitive. If you click the first link that I give after my List, you'll see that I've been defending the Warriors as a competent army. I'm just saying that they aren't the right army for me personally. I'm at a loss for how to use them effectively. I can operate VC (pretty simple) and HE, and even a demanding army like WE, but for some reason the warriors just feel totally alien to me.
I won't be abandoning them, but I'm going to switch back to VC while I build them back up as a cavalry army, and test them out some more.
The point of the thread is that I promised I would leave a battle report whether I won or lost, so that people could learn either way. Even if I failed horribly, I accomplished what I set out to do- play my WoC to the best of my ability, and let people make the judgment call on their own. If I hadn't meant to post the report, I would have taken VC, and given the armies in attendance, I'd probably have cleared 1st place by a mile, considering that our reigning champ took a new LM army and barely cleared the top 10.
What was offensive about my comment? Was it that I was standing up for myself and pointing out that, though I may be a newb here I know a thing or two about Warhammer and don't have to take crap from people when I give them good constructive advice?
So sarcasm and name calling are OK but pointing out relative win/loss records is not OK? Or is being a newb and talking back to a more senior member the part that's not OK?
And who's jumping to conclusions? Me or you? The conclusions I drew were from reading several of his posts, yours, apparently, were not based on anything but a bad mood.
Last edited by Drachen Jager; April 16th, 2009 at 05:28.