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Being a bearer of dwarven cannons I have, in prior games, targetted generals for assassination that was less than subtle. Only a few failed Look out, sir! rolls and I've made life easier.
But is this ethical? The man or woman or creature or hellbeast with a cannonball engrained into their abdomen would say "Never!" while even the occasional fellow dwarf will agree with the fallen hero/villain.
It's hard to imagine engineers NOT seeing their target as one blurts out "Holy Hells! That's -such'n'-such-, the bastard who shaved Marvin Fatbeard down to a stubble! We'll show him.... boys, load up the cannon and aim for the one in the fancified armor!"
Well, that just my dwarves... very easily agitated. But is this ethical, ultimately? Is it accepted in practice? Is it cheesy to the max? Is it wrong to win? Wait, don't answer the last one. I know it's right... let's rephrase it politically. Is it wrong to win with tactics that work? Wait, no, that doesn't fit either...
Every whisper of the future from the Warp speaks of a hundred battles lost, a thousand lives devoured and a million enemies born. -- Inquisitor Lord Babel
Cheesy? No, not really, since there are several ways of disrupting it:
1st you get a 'Lookout Sir!' dice roll (which is basically some kind of 2+ ward save) should your general buzz along the battlefield all alone, then it's his own fault.
2nd most generals will be equipped with a ward save or regeneration which in combination with the mentioned 'Lookout Sir' means even further protection.
3rd you can always put some screening units between the warmachine and the general, provided the enemy won't deliberately overguess (but from previous games you should know how good your opponent can estimate distances). I personally don't mind if the guess would just land 2 incest in front of the screen (after all, you could roll a '2' on your artillery dice and thus hitting the nominated unit). And with skirmishers as a screen you might even be lucky enough to have no model in the screen that's in line with the general (since in 7th ed you have to nominate a model as a target, you can't just point to point xyz on the table)
4th there is enough 'sniping' stuff around (hochland long rifle, several spells) which won't allow a 'Lookout Sir!' (some even don't require LOS) so a cannon (or other war machines) are not at all cheezy.
Besides, there is always the possibility to inflict just one wound with the cannon and even the risk of a misfire (granted, the dwarves have runes against that, but that makes the war machine even more expensive)
So no worries when aiming for the opponent's juicy targets
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
Being a Chaos player, obviously I can't agree with any half-baked justification for having my expensive and powerful characters cannon-sniped by some dishonourable Dwarf or Empire player!
There's not much I can do about it if you want to cannon-snipe, it's just one of those flaws in the Warhammer rules system, but if you did it to my characters, I would not forget...
"Peace, through superior firepower."
The keen eyes of a wood elf highborn mere inches away cannot pick out a character in a unit with his bow, so how in hell is a cannon from across the battlefield supposed to?
I'm sorry, but even with "Look out sir" and all that I think it's just plain unsporting.
een killed by cannon fire since they're such an obvious target. A general's command would no doubt have been marked by a banner, giving his own army a rallying point and the enemy a big target to shoot at.
For example, from the US civil war:On 4th August the rebels, under Breckinridge and Lovell, made an attack upon our forces at Baton Rouge. The rebels lead 15,000 men; we about 4000, under General Williams, who was killed by a cannon-shot at the commencement of the fight. The fight lasted three hours, and the rebels were repulsed. A correspondent of the Herald says:
General Williams, in command of our forces, was killed, a cannon-ball taking his head completely off.
Look out sir is a necessary side-effect of the way cannons work in warhammer. Because you can cannon-snipe, Look out sir exists to make it less likely to be effective.
Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.Originally Posted by amishcellphone
I asked a question similar to this a long time ago about suicide charging assassins into blocks of infantry with the sole purpose of killing one character, and then being beaten in combat (in my case, I am referring to Tomb Kings Tomb Scorpions). I've done it on multiple occassions, charging in, snipping the head off of a mage/lord/BSB and then being crumbled to death through combat res.
But then I thought, isn't that one of the reasons I take Tomb Scorpions? A relatively cheap, fast, strong bully that can suicide charge the enemy, but take out a much more prominent asset of his before I go down? The answer is yes.
The thing is, people who are the victims of cannon sniping or shooting chariots with Str 8 warmachines cry foul because they see the cannon/catapult as just a big gun designed to amplify the range damage of what a line of archers or riflemen can do, which it is. But the sniping aspect is just another capability that can be exploited by your warmachines if you're lucky and the enemy is unprepared.
And as Orkbert said, the odds of getting past 'Look out sir', various ward saves, and dealing enough wounds to powerful characters make sniping more of a 'Gee I hope this works' rather than a 'Cannon snipe = instant win'.
The only time I'd cry foul is if someone was deliberately over guessing their ranges to shoot at something that is out of LOS because another unit is in the way (the mage behind the block of infantry).
And Tzeench Lord, if your chaos lord is capt thunderclaw in combat (which I would guess he is), you should only expect people to want to neutralize him before he can bring his prowess to the fight. Anyone that charges him and lets him get all those super attacks is just playing into your hands.
Commanders were always a centerpoint of historic battles, up until the time of gunpowder warfare, and were often seen as a primary target in larger fights (hence challenges etc)...
My perspective is, if the Hero is not part of a unit, then he is a perfect target (especially with the new rules that makes him a unit, even when next to a block of troops). Yes shooting a cannon at him may be considered overkill or cheesy, but it's no different to casting a spell on him, using one of many special weapons or abilities, or charging him with something purely to kill him (like the tomb spiders).
'Eadbut, Hochland long rifle, assassins... you could even say if someone summoned a comet of cassandra at the base of your commander is being cheesy..
And as mentioned before, if you build a super-melee chaos lord, do you really expect a player to be "honourable" and only fight you in melee? it would be something akin to you being honourable and engaging the cannon in range..
If it was against the spirit of the rules to snipe a character with a cannon, it would have been a simple matter for the rules to state that cannon hits would be distributed like shooting or otherwise disallow it. Shooting a character, you have to go through higher toughness, possible ward saves, and possible regeneration, and even if you make it through all those you still have a 5/6 chance of getting a rank and file anyway. Those cannons are a big point and force organization sink which is useless when melee starts and easy to kill if you get anywhere near it, let's not go complaining about it when someone uses them effectively. If you don't want your general eating a huge ball of lead, then you should do something to protect him from it, and if you just march your fancypants leaders down the firing range, they deserve what they get.
I agree that blasting your opponents general aprt with a cannon is unsportsman like, but so is blasting anyone apart with a cannon.
We'll assume that no one is over guessing the range to get past LOS.
I am bringing my TK against a dwarf gunline tomorrow and I thought long and hard about how to build my list. I admit to some tailoring, but back to the point of this thread;
I decided to simply be careful on how I deploy. First, I am screening my own artillery until the right moment. I plan to keep my Chariots and Characters out of sight until ICFB starts to surface. Even though I know I am gonna be slow moving, I must play patiently and carefully. If I send my troops shambling head on, there will be nothing left.
I feel it's fair to try and blast whoever the heck you want because every army has a nasty trick. Whether or not, these tricks/rules make sense is a story that no one should bother too much with.
That nasty chaos lord getting blown back to hades is just getting a taste of his own medicine. If he manages to skirt around terrain and advance all sneaky like, he is gonna be bringing something akin to cannon ball fists into the fight.
I've felt kinda bad when some tooled up Warboss gets killed before he gets a chance to swing because I've flanked him, outnumber him, he fears me and I catch him... but that's the game.
The legions of Palos[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]