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Ok here is a situation from a recent game.
Opponent's HE Swordmasters with ASF charge my KOS with ASF. The way we played it was that despite his charging KOS struck first because ASF cancelled each other out and KOS had higher initiative.
Kithre commented this was wrong because ASF v ASF cancels each other out but since Swordmasters charged KOS they should attack first despite KOS' higher initiative. (Correct me if I am wrong in summarizing what you said Kithre)
Upon reading HE FAQ this is what I think SHOULD have occurred:
1. ASF v ASF cancels each other out
2. Normally charging party would strike first irrespective of charged party Initiative, but
3. per FAQ, if ASF is cancelled out for both attacker and defender having it, swordmasters would strike LAST since they have great weapons.
4. Therefore, despite being charged, KOS should attack first since HE Swordmasters are using greatswords which strike last!
Am I right?
Last edited by Sybaris Slaay; July 3rd, 2008 at 23:03.
If both have ASF, just revert to normal order. The FAQ confuses this point (iirc it goes on about reverting to Init w/o mentioning the rest) but unless you're one of those annoying RAW people, then you play the same order as normal.
Impact Hits -> ASF -> Charging -> Initiative -> Strike Last -> Previous Winner -> D6
I know there are one or two missing but i cant think of them right now. But if you always work down that list, you wont go far wrong.
So the swordmasters should have struck first, since even models with great weapons strike first when charging.THE FORCES OF ULTHUAN
Q. In situations where both players have units with the Always Strikes
First (ASF) rule, what impact does charging and “Strikes Last” weapons
have on determining who strikes first?
A. Effectively the ASF rules cancel each other out, so that everything
reverts to normal.
S. Official High Elves FAQ / Alessio Cavatore – Warhammer Design Team
and the strike last is sorta misleading. b/c if you have 2 units lets say Empire Greatswords and Skeleton warriors(Tk), by what is listed there, the Greatswords would go first (higher I(3)) but b/c they have great weapons (always strike last) they would go after the Skeletons who have a lower I(2) but have hw/spear's.
Last edited by Hondor; July 4th, 2008 at 04:31.
Painting: 20 quarrelers
The whole point is that "striking at normal initiative" generally means that we respect the current initiative hierarchy, more lazy wording on rules precision. GeeDub really ought to employ rules precision analsyst to make sure that the rules don;t contradict and really say what they mean. The book says strike in initiative order (without considering special cases such as charging, GW etc) and the FAWQ says great weapons strike last.
However, the RAW in the FAQ states that ASF vs ASF effectively cancels each other out after stating the specific example of a great weapon, and therefore this must be taken as the RAW:
if we look at the FAQ we find that GW explicitly states that ASF cancels eachother out. after a long discussion on L-O chat in regards to this and with reference to the direwolf faq's (if you look the direwolf faq council had a hand in all of the new FAQ's) we came to the conclusion that always strikes first does cancel out COMPLETLY.
so from our own evaluation the swordmasters would indeed strike first. they charged which overides the normal great weapon rules.
spambot kill tally: 79
[16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> I know he is.
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> He usually is.
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> Sometimes it's intentional.
[00:01] <+zubus> i love you, ya skirt wearin nothern monkey! ^_^
Yep - agreed :-)
So that KoS would have been toast (probably :-p)
Gotta disagree here.
When 2 models are fighting each other that both have the ASF rule, then it's quite clear, 'If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the model's Initiative to determine who strikes first'. Page 94 BRB
So, KOS strikes first. As soon as a model has the ASF rule, charging is ignored.
The reason fotr the FAQ, was because a Great Weapon gives a model 'always strikes last' 'where they would otherwise strike in iniative order'. Page 55 BRB.
The FAQ confuses it by saying 'cancels each other out', but the rule doesn't refer to charging, and only refers to a GW wielding High Elf. It says 'cancel' more as a way to get your head around it. Then, by mentioning the word 'effectively', the last sentence doesn't even become any sort of ruling at all.
Sorry for the rant. I think Page 94 is clear. Charging is ignored.