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Hello, I am new to this board, though not entirely to Warhammer.
No, this isn't a "can they move and shoot?-thread"
I'll explain my predicament as best as I can. I've been playing a few pitched battles of around 1500 points against my older brother (him playing O&G - me playing empire) , and my handgunners have been obliterated each and every time by his pesky wolf riders and spider riders.
What he does is, we usually have a few pieces of terrain scattered around the table, he moves his fast cavalry (which carry bows) to hover around a forest so they won't get shot to pieces. As my first turn comes to an end, and his second begins he proceeds to move that unit around the flank or back of my handgunners.
His unit could completely obliterate my handgunners, so at first he just charged them to free his cavalry for other tasks. I started putting a character in with the handgunners (with a Dragon Bow) and now he's just moving around my handgunners and firing with his bows until my unit is dead.
Every time I pivot to shoot at him, he moves up on my flank in his turn, uses a free reform, unleashes a volley of arrows into my unit, and I don't get a shot off because handgunners are "Move-or-fire".
I am fully aware that I can alter my strategy to counter this, but leaving 50-100 points of defending troops (which is the only option I can see) just doesn't seem too clever considering the size of the game. Heck, I've even tried placing my handgunners in the middle of my battleline, but he got around it anyway.
He's forcing multiple panic tests on my handgunners while they can only watch his Orcs in close combat with my other units.
It'll be a rare day that they get to fire a shot.
My question is - can those wolf- and spiderriders really do that? Have i missed a rule that enables me to fire at him?
Do I really have to start using my handgunners as detachments, or not field them at all?
Last edited by Draebersnegl; August 11th, 2008 at 02:04.
Well, how to protect your flanks from fast cavalry is more of a tactica question for the Empire forum, but there may be some rules issues that are compounding your situation.
1) March Blocking: Remember to make him check for march blocking. If they're getting up in your face to get good shots, it's likely they shouldn't be able to move far enough to get back around if you reform.
2) To-hit modifiers: Goblin cav carries short bows. If they're close enough to be in short range, they're march blocked next turn. Those goblins should probably be needing 6s just to hit you most of the time, and then wound rolls on top of that. 6, maybe 8 shots, 6 to hit, 4 to wound, that probably shouldn't be causing panic tests too often.
3) Honesty in measuring! Remember the free reform for Fast Cav does not allow a model to be displaced by more than his max move. Spider Riders can only cover 28" in two turns. Unless they get some really optimal deployment, they probably shouldn't be in that awesome a position, totally out of sight of your hand gunners, on turn 2. Remember point 1. If they advance too far up on turn 1, you can move your own troops into position to march block them and relegate them to regular M only on turn 2. This is particularly nasty if they are hiding behind a forrest that they can't see through, so they can't even try to charge the unit that's march blocking.
4) Animosity! Goboo Cav have to take Animosity tests just like most other units. It's not uncommon to forget to roll it for those outlying units away from the battle line. Make sure they take the test!
Heheh I learned a lot, thank you
As for the tactical side:
1) For that cases I often have a small detachment of archers stuck to a unit (sometimes even as separate unit on its own)
2) Counter his fast cavalry with yours (or let them lurk more or less close to your handgunners) and even if he starts shooting at the pistoliers instead of the handgunners you got good chances to retaliate in kind.
Alternately you could field a minimum unit of knights (well maybe with a musician) on the flank; that should also keep him from advancing too carelessly
3) Artillery: we (Empire) have them, so use them
Well. the cannon is not a good anti-fast cavalry item (unless the opponent accidentally exposes a flank) but the others are. And fast cavalry is a soft enough target to even use a mortar which is, incidentally; against Greenskins a good choice anyways (as even the T4 Orks usually come with bad enough armor saves to warrant shots against them, too) and point-cost-friendly, too.
Last edited by Orkbert; August 11th, 2008 at 09:19. Reason: typo corrected
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
Hi guys, thanks for the replies.
I wasn't really looking for tactics to deal with them, but the replies are really helpful nonetheless.
By the way: 9 inches plus free reform is enough to get out of line of sight of the handgunners and practically every other warmachine unless stationed on a hill.
I won't turn this into a tactical discussion since it's the Rule Forum.
So since you didn't really answer my "rule question", I guess it's safe to assume that he can legally do this?
On your point, the rule is he gets 9" move including a free reform, not plus a free reform. So no model can move more than 9" total during the turn if march blocked. Warmachines can turn to fire so moving around the warmachines isn't really an option. As for him getting behind you, remember that his unit can't come within an inch of any of your units. Therefore to get through two units there must be 2" plus 25mm of space. If there isn't he can't run through.
If he is following these restrictions, then his move is legal.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
Thank you for the quick answer, Sirkently.
This was exactly what I was looking for.
On the point of the warmachines now being able to shoot, I meant that he hides his fast cavalry behind the handgunners, out of line of sight of my warmachines.
There should be no way in *heck* a fast calvary unit of minimum size 5 be able to run around a 1x10 wide Hand Gunner unit to the flank... not even with a 9" movement speed + free reform.
Remember to tell you friend that every single Fast Calvary model can only move up to the !!!Maximum!!! distance even after the Free Reform. Check your rulebook and the diagram shown on it. Best way to do this, is to tell your friend to measure from the furthest guy in the unit to a point where he's moving to.. put his finger there and that's the point where his unit should be and no further than that, including his Free Reform.
I've seen too many people try to cheat like that.
Anima Tactics - try it out!