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hi all, first post
just a quick thing i dont understand, looking for some help or clarification:
high elves ALWAYS strike first, even when charged ? (i presume thats right?)
so how the hell are you supposed to beat then with a melee army?
im more of a 40k person, and have started playing fantasy on the side. one of the guys i play with is an eldar/high elf type person. ive been dabbling mostly, but tried Brets and Skaven , and both seem to get royally toasted before they can have any effect ? *
so any useful thoughts, suggestions, aditional reading , etc, gratefully recieved . (or indeed rules clarification, he says hopefully)
*been playing around 1k lists for experimentation etc, not sure if that is causing a problem though
Bretonnians should be able to beat High Elves convincingly if you pick the charges. Don't charge straight into a unit of White Lions with S6 axes to the front (or rear!), they will eat you..
Charging the same unit to the flank will reduce the number of attacks you get, but will also reduce the attacks back, and will generally mean you win the combat. Same with spears, but these guys generally have a hard time getting past 2+ saves..
Similarly, with skaven, ensure you can beat his unit with rank bonus and outnumbering alone. Most Elven elites are not ranked and have a width of 7, as they are expensive and better deployed killing things rather than ranking up.
If you charge a forntage of White Lions, ensure that your frontage is as narrow as possible (max width 5) and hit him with a flank charge to get the +1 combat resolution bonus.
if you have standard, ranks and outnumber, you are +5 on combat resolution. Now assuming the HE player has the standard, and manages to hit with an average number of attacks 2/3 of 7, and then wound with an average number of attacks - thats 5/6 out of 4.7, then he will score 4 casualties. You have drawn a combat with a dangerous unit of White Lions with what - a unit of paltry Skaven...who are worth about 1/3 of the points...If your skaven have spears, then you should get a decent number of attacks in on round 2.
Point to note - never charge sword masters - to the front or rear. They will butcher anything with a T lower than 6, and an armour save worse that 1+.
basically dont attack them at all and just dont play HE until the ASF rule is removed.
It also helps a bit if you got access to items/abilities, which grant ASF to your own models. Provided your initiative value beats at least the basic HE initiative, so 6 or higher is appreciated, if your heroes can't even muster that (most humans, dwarfs, orks etc.) it won't work.
Furthermore, for those armies with chariots, impact hits come before ASF, so they would be the bane of those small elite units.
Last edited by Orkbert; October 9th, 2008 at 16:04. Reason: stuff added
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
Brets and Skaven should both run over high elves. Brets in the combat phase and Skaven in the magic/shooting phase.
A charge by a bret lance should decimate high elf units. For some of the harder ones like swordmasters, you might need to hit them with grail knights or double charge them if you go from the front, but you should still obliterate them.
Skaven just shoot/magic so much that the expensive high elves can't keep up. Being T3 with only an average armor save is rough when skaven are shooting with the warp cannons, jezzails, ratlings, and hitting you with warp lightning. The only thing Skaven have trouble with would be a star dragon... but even then only if the warp cannon & jezzails can't fry it before it starts causing terrors to all the non-ranked units.
thanks for replies
i tend to try to make interesting/fluffy army lists rather than optimised so i do tend to dig myself into a hole
Don't worry about it too much to be honest. You should be able to outmanouvre a HE army with Bretonnians, and you should be able to tie up HE units with unbreakable units such as rat swarms or nasty big-hitters like Rat ogres at the very least.
Eshin are great with things such as Gutter runners and Triads
i play skaven with 0 shooting (i'll wait for those who fainted to get back up) and basicly with HE it's all bout numbers, their units are expensive but week once you get past ASF, outnumber, flank charges, and champions. always have a champion cause even if the unit does 5 wounds (killing your front rank) your champ can still attack. giving you a chance to tie/beat in CR. unless your confident your going to overrun (or require charge bonus (aka lance)) , let the HE get the charge. leaves you in a good position and if you have spears you get extra attacks now. Frenzy works wonders against HE, cause even if only you champ is alive you have 3->4 attacks with him. most likely to get you a wound or 2.
Painting: 20 quarrelers
I played a game vs High Elf yesterday.. Korhil in a unit of Pheonix Guards, Caradryan in a unit of White Lion. Now what do you get from that?
a Fear-causing Pheonix Guards with 4+ Ward Save and Stubborn.
a Fear-causing White Lion and Stubborn, whoever kills Caradryan bites the jackpot too.
How do you suppose to beat those two units in combat?
Anima Tactics - try it out!
The unit does not cause fear, only Caradryan, so you only need totest for fear if you are attacking him. If he is in the front rank, then flank or rear charge...
As for champions, it actually isn't always worth the points. I will always challenge or kill a champion simply to ensure NO enemies get to attack back, especially if I have a unit of SM in combat - 7 SM with champion = 15 attacks, and not many infantry foes will get up from that.
Once again - flank and SteamRoller is the way to go, cretainly NOT frontal or rear charges...