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had this come up last game, along with much debate:
High Elf Standard of Balance wording: The unit carrying the Standard of Balance and any enemy unit in base contact with it is immune to Psychology. In addition, they also lose hatred and frenzy abilities (in the same way as a unit that has already fought and lost a round of combat)
Banner of Rage wording: The unit with this banner has the frenzy special rule. They will never lose their frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.
so, units with each are in base to base contact......which one over-rules?
we ended up dicing it off, and I won and got to keep my rage, the 2nd game the 2 units never got in contact.
I guess my question mainly comes from the parenthesis "( wording )" that they use, saying you would lose frenzy just like losing a round of combat.....and ours says that they will never lose frenzy
I would infer, based upon the "(in the same way as a unit that has already fought and lost a round of combat)" text that it would not remove frenzy caused by the Rage banner, nor would it remove DEs Infinite Hatred (DEs hate HEs in every round of combat always), because these effects are not removed after fighting or losing a round of combat.
But then, I am bias towards WoC :p
"Chaos cares not for self-preservation, for reason, or for truth. The essence of Chaos is Change..." -Teclis
Tzeentch: Change You Can Believe In.
I agree with Naedre.
If the High Elves Banner of Balance states that the Frenzy is lost IN THE SAME WAY as if the unit lost a round of combat then it won't affect the Banner of Rge, because the Frenzy that it bestowes does never leave, even if the unit is beaten in combat. It's the same ith the Dark Elves Hatred.
"The more choices you force the opponent to make, the better the chance for you to capitalize on his mistakes"
The way that I view the banner is that it makes you immune to the effects of hatred/ Frenzy so you just it's still there just has no affect.
However I agree about the banner of Rage still giving frenzy, but disagree about the dark elves hatred.
Nowhere in the Eternal Hatred does it say that they cannot lose hatred, it just says that they keep on applying it in subsequent rounds.
I have to disagree with Allonairre, albeit it doesn't have the word Always in the text, it clearly states that they continue to re-roll to hit in subsequent rounds of combat against HE's
I realise that, but nowhere does it say they 'can't' loose it, the trouble is that you never loose hatred, no matter how badly you are beaten etc you still hate in the first round of the next combat, this is very different to frenzy which you have or not.
I know that it is just semantics really but in my gut I feel like a magic item over rides an innate ability when the 2 meet.
eg Magic item that makes you strike last would over ride Speed of Asuryan
To me, this is such a close call, I think you should dice it every time it happens.
But, if I had to choose one, yes, I'd say they don't loose the frenzy.
"How do you stop a Chaos Knight from charging? No seriously, HELP!" André le Bouffon, jester of the Bretonnian court - last words.
I agree with Allonairre. Standard of Balance doesn't remove Banner of Rage's Frenzy only because Standard of Balance says 'as if they had lost a round of combat' or something along those lines. Banner of Rage specifically overrides this with its own wording.
However, Hatred, and specifically DE hatred, says nothing about never being able to be suppressed, and the Standard of Balance's line about losing combat doesn't apply, because losing combat does not affect hatred. It just says lose hatred. So, just because DE hatred happens to last a bit longer doesn't mean it suddenly becomes immune to suppression.
So your solution is that No unit that has Eternal Hatred would continue to have it's hatred after the first round. And that any magic weapon that overrides an armies special rule should override ASF.
The effects of hatred per the BRB never carry over past the first round. The Banner of Balance states that the loss is the same as a unit the has FOUGHT and lost a round of combat. Normal hatred does not carry over after the first round a unit FIGHTS. Since Dark Elf Hatred, and the many of the other special rule hatred's continue after the first round, it makes sense that it would continue. There are enough arguments for both sides of this that I think the best solution is to roll a die each round on a 4+ whoever's turn it is has their rule supercede.
By the "logic" that your using that magic overrides innate abilities means it would never make sense to give a charecter with ASF a magic great weapon, since the great weapon is magic, it overrides the ASF rule for the charecter?
DE hatred is like all other hatred. I think Black Guard, maybe...not sure, get to reroll each round. But eternal hatred is just the name for the army wide rule of hatred.Since Dark Elf Hatred, and the many of the other special rule hatred's continue after the first round, it makes sense that it would continue.