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  1. #1
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    stilll confused about monster handlers

    I play lizardmen so I am talking about salamanders, no extra team members and groups of two.

    ok so they are skirmishers, fine. Where I really dont get it, it when it comes to attacking them in CC.

    couple of situations that I can think of.

    Sal = salamander
    X = Skink Handler
    E = Enemy

    1. when you you get charged to the front they form up against the enemy and they fight, but what about the skinks. THey go in the back, but I hear people saying that I would get six attacks. I dont see this as possible.

    XXXXXX
    .SalSal

    This formation seems illegal as your second rank is more than your first. so that leaves

    XX
    XXXX
    SalSal

    Which makes more sense, but how do you get 6 attacks from the skinks?

    Scenario 2.......................

    Not in combat but I get charged in the flank.

    I place the salmanders with the enemy attacking one of them on his flank


    ........EE
    SalSalEE
    ........EE
    ........EE

    Where do I place the skinks? Can they be targeted by the enemy unit?

    Scenario 3 --------------------------------------

    Im in combat to the front

    XX
    XXXX
    SalSal
    EEEEE
    EEEEE


    Now I get charged by a new enemy in the rear. Where do the skink handlers go? CAn they be targeted by the new enemy? Can the new enemy target the salamanders at all?

    I think If I get sound reasons to these scenarios my questions will be answered for CC.


    Final questions come from shooting at my team.

    When I hit the unit, do I roll against the toughness of the salamander (as he is the monster and also the highest toughness of the unit) and then randomise the wounds between the skinks and salamanders before taking armor saves or do I randomise between the two then try to wound them and then armor saves?


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  3. #2
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    585 (x8)

    the Monsters and Handlers special rule in the BRB answers your questions. Page 73

    The handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit.
    The handlers just stand around and are not counted for basecontact etc. Only use the monsters themselves. The skinks can just stand in an aesthetically pleasing manner, while the salamanders are in basecontact as required.

    When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead
    The monster has to be wounded on his WS, T and saves. After that you roll.

  4. #3
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Go read pg 73, under the heading for "monsters and handlers". We're looking at the second paragraph.
    "In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster...
    ...In addition the handlers cannot be attacked, or otherwise affected separately from their monster- if they are found to be blocking movement or line of sight, the controlling player simply atlers their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter. If the monster is removed, so are its handlers."

    In 8th edition, your handlers are essentially a part of the monster itself, rather than separate bases. The only reason we put them on separate bases is so that they can be removed if a shot is randomized onto the crew. If the enemy charges you, you are simply allowed to remove the Handlers until the end of combat, and count them as being on the same base as your monster. Therefore, your friends are right- you will get 6 handler attacks, 3 for each Salamander, made as if they were attacking from the Salamander's base.

    The handlers also never count for shooting or combat wounds. They instead take damage randomly. All "to hit" and "to wound" is rolled against the monster, and them randomized onto the handlers. On a 1-4 the monster is wounded, on a 5-6 it kills a handler instead. Once the handlers are removed, the monster takes a reaction test.

    edit: damn Dwarf, got to the answer before I did...
    Last edited by CaptainSarathai; December 13th, 2010 at 20:49.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  5. #4
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    585 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    edit: damn Dwarf, got to the answer before I did...
    We're not as slow as our initiative leads you to believe

  6. #5
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    494 (x8)

    You both may be quick, but unfortunately you are both wrong as regards the damage from shooting. But as you don't play the awesome lizardmen, this is to be expected.

    When you hit the salamander unit with missile weapons, you randomize the hits, and then roll to wound. This is different from the norm for monster and handler units because the LM book specifically states this and thus overrides the BRB.

    As for your combat issues, if you are attacked to the front, all your skinks can attack. If you are attacked in the flank, one set of skinks can attack, so that would be three to start with. This is why it is important to actually remove skink handlers associated with each particular salamder when they eat skinks. Being attacked in the rear will be the same at being attacked in the front for skink combat.

    SirKently
    Last edited by sirkently; December 14th, 2010 at 00:10.
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  7. #6
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Here's a confusing bit though. Granted, I don't know what the original book says, but I double-checked the FAQ, as it seems strange that they would pass that off to the Lizardmen.

    Page 56 – Salamander Hunting Packs, Special Rules
    Add “Monster & Handlers”.

    Page 56 – Salamander Hunting Packs, Hunting Pack
    Change the first paragraph to “Salamanders are treated as
    Monsters for the purposes of the Monster & Handlers rule.
    The unit may not be joined by characters.”
    This was ripped directly from the FAQ. Same is true for Razordons. Seems to me that they follow standard Monster/Handler rules now, which of course brings the ball back into the court of myself and my stout little... (TBO, cover your ears) ...friend.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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  8. #7
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    494 (x8)

    The thing is it specifically changed the first paragraph. The second paragraph says "Missile hits and impact hits are randomized as follows: roll a D6, 1-4 hits a salamander, 5-6 hits a handler." Since they didn't errata that part, I would say that it still applies as army specific rules override BRB rules.

    Though I agree that it is a little strange.

    SirKently
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  9. #8
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    585 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by sirkently View Post
    But as you don't play the awesome lizardmen, this is to be expected.
    O really..? Click here! (Army of the old ones: The bearded ones lizardmen)

    I was under the assumption they followed the normal monster & handler rule but hadn't checked the FAQ thoroughly enough to notice they didn't remove the paragraph on missiles and impacts.

    It's silly, but the rules strangely enough do not contradict eachother.

    - When shooting, first randomise the hits to either handlers or salamanders. <-- So far the armybook rule
    - Then roll to wound
    - For every hit that wounds a salamander randomise again following the monsters&handlers rule and remove any handlers ( or salamanders ) that are killed <-- The BRB rule

    It might be one of GW's dozens of oversights however. Remember the discussion in the WoC forum that Juggernauts were NOT monstrous cavalry because an obscure little sentence wasn't errata'd? If you want to keep it simple and streamlined I'd j ust use the monsters & handlers rule. When using these 2 rules together the salamanders are safer though as the handlers have a bigger chance of catching an arrow.

  10. #9
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    494 (x8)

    So the ball is now in the middle of the court. Interesting predicament here. That is one weird way of distributing hits, but it seems to be by the letter of the rules.

    SirKently
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  11. #10
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    thanks for your help.

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