Firing in Close Combat with templates and war machines - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member DarkKnight's Avatar
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    Firing in Close Combat with templates and war machines

    My friend and I have different opinions on if and how you can if into close combat with template weapons. I can see stone thrower fired into close combat as long as you don't cover any of your own guys. However not sure about flame template weapons like the skaven flamer thrower and dragons can stand on the side of 2 blocks and torch the enemy rank and file as long as you didn't blast your own?

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    Member ashen1973's Avatar
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    You cannot use any shooting weapons on a unit in close combat, any attack made during the shooting phase will count as shooting.
    Some creatures (such as Dragons) have a close-combat flame attack, these can be used in combat (against the unit you are in combat with) but, I think I'm right in saying, that these don't use templates anyway.
    From the rules book
    p39 under 'Shooting into combat' 'Models are not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat, ...'
    p114 under 'Stonethrowers' 'The template cannot be placed over friendly models, or enemy models from a unit that is engaged in combat...'

    My view would be that you can not use any template attacks against a unit that is engaged in close-combat.
    I did read an explanation somewhere, which I cannot find at the moment, that says that although we line out models up as 2 units facing each other on the tableto we should actually imagine that, during close-combat, the 2-units would be mixed together in the melee.
    Last edited by ashen1973; April 6th, 2011 at 09:33.

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    Senior Member Byjugo's Avatar
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    When rules lawyering it is possible to hit an enemy unit with a stone thrower in CC.

    you can place the template right next to the enemy unit and hope it scatters onto your target.
    It is really cheesy, and i would probably never play against you again, but it is possible.
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    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    You can't target an enemy that is in close combat. Template weapons that scatter can end up over units in close combat. So, that dragon could not fire into that combat, but a salamander for example could fire at a unit, and over shoot that unit, ending up hitting another unit on the other side that is in combat.

    I recently had someone tell me that you couldn't fire a template weapon like this, if there was a chance that it could end up in a close combat fight. I have looked for that rule, but so far have been unable to find it.

    SirKently
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    With regards to Skaven weapon teams, they have a race attribute allowing them to shoot into close combat since they don't care about losing a few rats.

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    Member ashen1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirkently View Post
    You can't target an enemy that is in close combat. Template weapons that scatter can end up over units in close combat. So, that dragon could not fire into that combat, but a salamander for example could fire at a unit, and over shoot that unit, ending up hitting another unit on the other side that is in combat.

    I recently had someone tell me that you couldn't fire a template weapon like this, if there was a chance that it could end up in a close combat fight. I have looked for that rule, but so far have been unable to find it.

    SirKently
    I was also told that you cannot use a fire template if there is any chance of it hitting a friendly unit or a unit in close-combat.
    I cannot find a rule that states this either.
    There is a rule in the Cannons section of the rulebook (pg112, under 'choose a target' ) that says you cannot fire a cannon in such a way that it has a chance of hitting such a unit, but, in the section for 'Fire Throwers' (as close as I could find to the Salamander, uses the same template and rules) which is 2 pages further on, there is no mention of such a rule.

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    LO Zealot andre's Avatar
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    Well, with stonethrowers and similar it is possible to hit models in combat due to the scatter. You have to centre the initial shot over a model though, so whoever was putting it just next to a unit was playing wrong. I often find that stone throwers scatter into combats when the centre of the board gets cluttered, its just part of the game and as there is no control over the scatter I think it is fair enough.

    Salamanders are an interesting one. I have often targeted a unit only for the flames to contact a combat behind. There are several interpretations of what happens next, the two below are the ones i see most often employed.
    - Most obvious is that the models under the template are affected. But this causes two problems, you are hitting a combat, and your opponent could cry foul that you did it on purpose.
    - As a stop gap measure I have played it such that after calculating the number of hits from the template these are then randomised between the two units in combat (to represent the melee as oppossed to disciplined ranks). The problem with this is that sometimes the template only hits one sides troops. So one side or the other cries foul.

    I prefer the second solution. It just needs to be explained pre-match, so that people dont get annoyed when it takes place.

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    Member ashen1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Well, with stonethrowers and similar it is possible to hit models in combat due to the scatter. You have to centre the initial shot over a model though, so whoever was putting it just next to a unit was playing wrong. I often find that stone throwers scatter into combats when the centre of the board gets cluttered, its just part of the game and as there is no control over the scatter I think it is fair enough.

    Salamanders are an interesting one. I have often targeted a unit only for the flames to contact a combat behind. There are several interpretations of what happens next, the two below are the ones i see most often employed.
    - Most obvious is that the models under the template are affected. But this causes two problems, you are hitting a combat, and your opponent could cry foul that you did it on purpose.
    - As a stop gap measure I have played it such that after calculating the number of hits from the template these are then randomised between the two units in combat (to represent the melee as oppossed to disciplined ranks). The problem with this is that sometimes the template only hits one sides troops. So one side or the other cries foul.

    I prefer the second solution. It just needs to be explained pre-match, so that people dont get annoyed when it takes place.
    You don't actually have to centre your stonethrower templates over a model.
    The rulebook says (pg 114) 'take the small round template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight.....'
    I know a lot of people say that you have to target a model but, I am yet to find a rule that says so.

    I like the second idea you give, for dealing with Salamabder fire attacks, and this has given me another idea for dealing with the situation. Although a little more complicated it does seem fairer and more 'realistic' (as realistic as anything concerning fire-breathing giant lizards can be!)
    If the template hits a unit that is in combat then any models that would not be taking part in that combat (i.e the rear 2 ranks of a standard 4 rank block) take hits.
    If the template covers any model that would be in combat then both sides of the combat take a hit. This reflects the fact that although our models are all neatly lined up when in combat the reality is that the combatants would be mixed together in the melee. Each area of battlefield covered by a model would probably actually contain a fighter from each side hacking at each other.

  10. #9
    Son of LO psichotykwyrm's Avatar
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    Ashen is right about the stone thrower targeting. It doesn't require you to Target a model.

    When referring to putting the center hole over a model, it says something along the lines of "if targeting an enemy unit".
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    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Salamanders are an interesting one. I have often targeted a unit only for the flames to contact a combat behind. There are several interpretations of what happens next, the two below are the ones i see most often employed.
    - Most obvious is that the models under the template are affected. But this causes two problems, you are hitting a combat, and your opponent could cry foul that you did it on purpose.
    - As a stop gap measure I have played it such that after calculating the number of hits from the template these are then randomised between the two units in combat (to represent the melee as oppossed to disciplined ranks). The problem with this is that sometimes the template only hits one sides troops. So one side or the other cries foul.
    This brings up a similar question. What happens if you have a wizard in combat that casts a purple sun. It will obviously hit the models in the enemy unit that are in combat. I see this as exactly the same as template weapons and spells shooting into close combat. Would you use your stop gap measure here as well?

    SirKently
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

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