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Hi, a quick question that I would appreciate some opinions on.
If you make a Vanguard move with fast-cavalry and get to move first, the vanguard rules say you may not charge.
What happens if you now fail an animosity roll and have to declare a charge?
Do you think the vanguard rule (no charge) takes precedence or does the animosity rule override it?
You make you're Vanguard move before either side moves so after deployment but before the game actually starts. So my Outriders make a move 12 inches forward, Its the top of the first round and I won the dice roll, so I can declare a charge with them if I'd like. I'm just not allowed to declare a charge before the game even begins.
As for animosity, if it says you have to declare a charge, then I would say that it is one of those instances where you have to roll off to see which rule takes precedence.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
Page 11 of the BRB, second paragraph:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the Warhammer Armies book always takes precedence."
Also, Page 79 of the BRB, third plain paragraph under heading "Vanguard":
"Units that have made a Vanguard move cannot declare a charge in the first turn if their army goes first"
What does this mean to you?
Well, firstly, if Animosity does not place restrictions on the charge declaration then you are allowed to charge, as your Armybook will override the Rulebook and you will charge on your first turn.
An example of a stipulation which would keep you from charging would be:
Frenzy (pg 70)
"If, during the Charge sub-phase, [a unit] could declare a charge, it must do so".
If this unit had made a Vanguard, it could not make a charge move, because Vanguard specifically disallows charge declaration.
However, remember that you are only forbidden to charge if you take the first turn. If it is your first turn, but you have elected to go second, then you are allowed to charge as normal. The reasoning behind this decision is that you must give your opponent at least 1 turn to react to the positioning of your Vanguard troops, before you charge in (how unfair would it be to get charged before you could even move?!)
Thank you for the input so far.
I did think that the 'army book takes precedence' rule would be in effect here, but its nice to have some clarification.
I don't have much knowledge of other armies rules, do any other army books have a rule that covers a similar situation?
As the rule of animosity is as follows:
"After the (ed. extra) move is complete, the unit must declare a charge in the Charge sub-phase against the closest visible enemy, if it is possible to do so."
First: "if it's possible" Perhaps it's not possible to do so, because they made a vanguard move?
Second:'Must' is pressing, but it's not obligatory such as 'has to declare' would be.
Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs
I would say that the "If Possible" settles it- you are not allowed to charge on your turn 1 after a Vanguard move, so it would be impossible to declare the charge.
I'm not familiar with the Orc book as it currently stands. I know that Chaos Spawn have the Random Move for example, which means that they don't declare charges, and if they end up in contact with an enemy, they count as having declared a charge. If the O&G must move towards the nearest enemy, then I would guess that coming into B2B would count as a charge. Otherwise, it looks like Digger's right- you can't use Animosity to charge after making a Vanguard.
Seems this was answered in the new FAQ that released today
Q: Can a unit that has made a Vanguard move be forced to declare a charge on the first turn of a game by getting a Squabble or We'll Show 'Em result on the Animosity table? (pg32)
A: No. As it has made a Vanguard move it is not able to charge.
I believe this question/answer could have been worded better. It states that you cannot charge in the first turn, but, the rulebook says you cannot charge if you go first in the first turn.
But if GW had worded it better, they might have made even more typos....