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I posted this awhile ago on a different forum, but no one responded and I want to make sure that this is correct because I want to try them out. Let me know what you guys think.
After reading the other threads, the army book, the BRB, and the FAQ thoroughly, I am inclined to believe that the Twins on an Eagle have 3 wounds each and can't loose their mount and here's why with a break down:
Page 75 of the Wood Elf Army Book under their points cost:Gwindalor is just an Eagle, nowhere does it say otherwise....or Gwindalor (a Great Eagle, +XX points).
Eagles are classified as a "Monstrous Beast" as noted on page 85 as an example and page 485 in the Beastiary, both in the BRB (I have the big copy >.>).
Also on page 85, it says that a character riding a monstrous beast use the rules for monstrous cavalry on page 83.
Page 83 clearly states that all of the cavalry rules apply to Monsterous Cavalry with the following exception :Page 82 regarding wounding the model states:monstrous cavalry always uses the highest Wounds characteristic the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's -Now, the rules for "Master of the Wild" on page 74 of the Wood Elves book very clearly state:The mount's Wounds and Toughness are never used. We assume that the enemy always strikes at the rider, so his Wounds and Toughness are used instead - if the rider is slain, we treat the mount as having fled the battle or been slain alongside it's master.The FAQ has this to say:For shooting, any shots that would normally hit the rider are split between Arahan and Naestra (ie, when riding a monster, the rider is normally hit on the roll of a 5+). For each hit that hits a rider, roll a further dice - on a 1-3 Arahan is struck, on a 4-6 Naestra is struck. Also, if their mount is slain, they will form into a skirmishing unit consisting of the two of them. If both sisters are slain, their mount will always react as if it had rolled a 5 or 6 on the Monster Reaction Table.Now, following the rules as written, there is actually no contest as to rules. Here is a step by step of what happpens:Q. If both twins are killed, is Ceithin-Har or Gwindalor allowed a
Leadership test before it reacts according to a 5-6 on the Monster
Reaction table? (p75)
A. No, apply result 5-6 straight away.
Arahan and Naestra are riding Gwindalor and are hit by an singular bow.
Since they are treated as monstrous cavalry, the arrow strikes the rider. Immediately roll a d6 to determine which of the two riders is hit. We'll say Arahan.
Next, the arrow rolls to wound against the toughness of rider hit and any saves are made. We'll say it wounds and she fails to save.
You would then subtract a wound using the highest number of wounds on the model's profile, which would be the eagle's.
End Result: Arahan has taken one wound and Naestra/Gwindalor have taken none.
Next scenario, they are hit by 3 more arrows in the same shooting phase.
Roll a d6 for each hit to determine how many arrows hit which rider. We'll say 1 on Arahan and 2 on Naestra
Roll to wound the riders that were hit and make any saves. We'll say that all of them wound and no saves are made. Bad Luck.
Now, you would subtract another wound from Arahan and two from Naestra using the highest wounds on the model, which is 3. Both riders have taken two wounds with one wound remaining.
What I have just described follows the rules as written, following the step by step process of Hitting, Wounding, Saving, and subtracting unsaved wounds. Have I not? It's actually remarkably simple.
Here are the confusing parts:
The FAQ makes reference to the rule saying that if the Sisters are slain, the mount reacts as if it had rolled a 5 or 6 on the Monster Reaction table, however Gwindalor is not a monster, but a Monstrous Beast.
What does this mean? Well, let's take a look at our rules. Under the cavalry section, it simply states that when the rider is slain it, is treated as if mount flees the battlefield or has been slain along side it's master. Here's the fun part: Even though the Twins riding Gwindalor is Monstrous Cavalry, it is clearly stated that when they are slain, Gwindalor reacts as if it had rolled a 5 or 6 on the reaction table, which means he gains Frenzy and Hatred and can not loose Frenzy. There is no question about it because it clearly states that this happens. However, now we have a conundrum. It says under cavalry that the mount is removed with the rider, but then again we also have clear rules stating what happens when his riders are slain.
The question is: Does he stay or does he go? It can be argued that normal mounts are removed because it doesn't state otherwise, but since it clearly states what happens to Gwindalor, honestly, I'm inclined to believe that he stays. The FAQ even confirms that he reacts on the table, which even sounds like RAI to me.
To clear up any further confusion about why he gets a reaction when he's not a ridden monster, it is because our Army Book AND our FAQ clearly state that he reacts on the table, which means he is allowed to react as if he were a monster. Again, that only furthers me to believe that he remains on the board after the twins die with full wounds because all hits are aimed at the riders as per the Cavalry rules. What this also means, by the way, is that it is impossible for the twins to become a skirmishing unit when they ride Gwindalor.
While riding Gwindalor, each rider has three wounds and when they die, Gwindalor reacts as if he had rolled a 5-6 on the Monster Reaction table, even though he's not a monster because the rules say he does. However, because the mount is never taken into question when Arahan and Naestra are still alive when determining hits/wounds, it is impossible for Gwindalor to be given wounds and therefor die causing the Twins to become a skirmishing unit.
That is my analysis. Please, if you find fault, let me know, but it seems fairly clear to me.
40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)
I recently joined this forum and read your post over a month after you wrote it. I do play the Wood Elves, however I am inexperienced with them and with the Eighth Edition rules. I do have a few decades of experience with sorting out Games Workshop rule sets. I have not played the twin Sisters in a battle yet, although I am seeking just the models for them as I already own the Forest Dragon. When I bought it, the character mount for it was an Elven Lord. I am going to attempt to mount them with magnets so I can move them to a Great Eagle & be able to swap them out on the Forest Dragon with a Elven Lord. It was my search for those models without the Forest Dragon that led me here. I can see your dilemma here and it actually took me a bit to work it out the way I did.
I think the intent of or the Spirit of the rules is that the "Masters of the Wild" rule on page 74 of the Wood Elf Army Book would allow for exceptions the rules for "Monstrous Calvary" from the Eighth Edition Rule book. However, it doesn't really need to as between them, the riders have four wounds total, which is one more than Gwidolor's 3.I would insert my own example here to go with the one for "when riding a monster" and say (ie, when riding monstrous cavalry, the hits are normally allocated to the rider anyway).For shooting, any shots that would normally hit the rider are split between Arahan and Naestra (ie, when riding a monster, the rider is normally hit on the roll of a 5+). For each hit that hits a rider, roll a further dice - on a 1-3 Arahan is struck, on a 4-6 Naestra is struck. Also, if their mount is slain, they will form into a skirmishing unit consisting of the two of them. If both sisters are slain, their mount will always react as if it had rolled a 5 or 6 on the Monster Reaction Table.
Page 87 of the WarHammer Rule Book states in regards to Unique Units:I would think that Gwindalor is not "just an Eagle" like you said, but rather a named Great Eagle, even if his stats are the same as any Great Eagle, but he only costs 50 points for them to ride, too. He only appears in battle when the twins ride him as a mount. I would think that twin Elven Sisters, riding a Named Great Eagle into battle would be considered rather unique & rare. I don't recall many other instances of two special characters riding the same monstrous mount.Some mechanical constructs or magical monstrosities are so bizarre or unusual that they have rules entirely unique to themselves. Such troop types might well use some of the rules elements from other, more common troop types, or else have entirely distinct rules that do not appear anywhere else. Where this happens, the unit entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book will contain all the special rules and information you ned to get your unique unit into the fray!
I also think that since the rule you quoted from page 82 is listed under "Calvary", it would apply only to regular Cavalry, but not Monstrous Cavalry as it would be overruled by the exception that you quoted above for Monstrous Cavalry on page 83. However, as I already stated, being overruled isn't necessary in this case as when allocating the hits to the Twins, the Gwindalor's Wounds and Toughness stats would not be used anyway.
Since hits for a rider of Monstrous Cavalry are normally allocated to hit only the rider and ignore the mount, in the case of the Twins riding either of their mounts, the Wood Elf Army book would be the exception for both rules you quoted on pages 82 & 83 because these are two very special characters riding a unique Monstrous Cavalry mount - forming an extremely rare unit. An exception is not needed though, as in the case of Gwindalor this special rule already follows the rule for Monstrous Cavalry.
I believe the writers of the game very deliberately want any hits allocated to this unit to be split between the twins when riding Gwindalor, as it makes them a more much more powerful unit. They wanted to remove all doubt as to where the hits would go for either mount the Twins can choose. Therule allows for some hits, when they are riding Ceithin-Har, to be allocated to the Forest Dragon under the Ridden Monsters rule yet forces the hits onto either of the Twins when they are riding Gwindalor.
Pages 104 and 105 of the Warhammer rule book outline the types of Character mounts as Cavalry (mounts with only one Wound), Monstrous Cavalry, Chariot, and Monster.
Under Monstrous Cavalry:Also on page 105, there are rules for Ridden Monsters And Armour Saves and Shooting At Ridden Monsters. I won't quote them here as they only apply when the twins have chosen Ceithen-Har as their mount. Basically, when riding Gwindalor, they form a Monstrous Calvary model with the Fly rule. When riding Ceithin-Har, they form a Monstrous Calvary Ridden Monster model with the Fly rule.Very rarely a character will have the option to ride a monstrous beast. In this case, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'monstrous cavalry' and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models. It is worth noting (as the wording is rather similar) that the rules for Ridden Monsters do not apply to monstrous cavalry mounts - they are two distinct troop types.
I think this is due to these ladies having another special rule of Sister-Twins that states "While one still draws breath, both endure. If either Arahan or Naestra is slain, do not remove the model from play unless the other sister is killed in the same phase. If either sister is still alive at the end of a phase, both are restored to their starting number of Wounds."
As a Wood Elf player, you are much better off allocating the hits to the twins for three reasons. First, they rule for riding Monstrous Cavalry tells you the hits go to the riders. Second, combined they have four wounds verses Gwindalor's three. Lastly, the Sister-Twins rule above effectively regenerates any and all wounds the twins might take at the end of each and every phase. That is going to make it very difficult to kill them both as four wounds will need to be caused in a single movement, magic, shooting, or close combat phase. In my opinion, this is much better than allocating any wounds to Gwindalor, even with his Toughness of 4.
This means that very rarely are you going to see a scenario where the Twins are killed and Gwindalor has to fight on without them. In the rare event that the Twins are both killed in the same phase, I would again advise that the rules in the Wood Elf army book and the FAQ be followed as they are stated. "If both sisters are slain, their mount will always react as if it had rolled a 5 or 6 on the Monster Reaction table. In this case, the superseded rule is the one that would normally have a Mounted Calvary mount removed from the table in the event that the rider was slain. I think this makes up for not having used Gwindalor's Toughness Characteristic for hits against the Twins.
This also means that you will never see a scenario where Gwindalor is killed and the Twins become a skirmished unit made up of the two of them. I believe that rule only comes into play when they have chosen Ceinth-Har as their mount.
Clear as mud, right?