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  1. #1
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    Charging questions, pictorials - need a pro! Please help!

    Okay there have been a few charging questions that have come up during the battles with my buddy, and his interpretation of the rules, and a real situation are different than mine. I'm going to post three different charging scenarios, with pictures, will someone please look at each scenario and tell me the rules as to each? Thank you a ton!

    To begin, Charge 1 - I am charging, but he has three units, staggered correctly to where I cannot successfully charge his archers without hitting another unit. According to him, I cannot charge two units at once, and I must move to one of the side armies and maximize models, thus leaving his archers a lot of line of sight (in there left forward arc) of the rest of the field, while my horde army protects them from any other charges (aside from rear attacks).

    IMG_0137.jpg
    This is what happens when I target the archers and charge. I hit both side enemies due to my massive size.
    IMG_0138.jpg
    This is what I believe should be the case, I move my horde to maximize models on the archers and one side unit, thus charging two units at once and putting his archers and black guard into close combat. Again, according to him, this is illegal as I cannot charge two armies and I have to maximize to one army.
    IMG_0142.jpg
    This final pic is a rendering of what he believes should be the case after I charge in pic 1. I should maximize to the side army, and leave his archers available to shoot the rest of the field out of their left forward arc. (yes it's not a lot of line of sight for the archers, but it is some and it is free because my horde is now protecting them from getting charged by anyone by being in the way). In a real situation, my horde would obviously be able to hit both units, the archers and the black guards by spilling through the staggered defense. Obviously this is a game and I must play by the rules even though they may not match reality perfectly.

    Okay that was argument 1.

    Next, Charge 2 -Okay now I am the bottom two units, and I just destroyed a unit in close combat with the two bottom units that are next to each other (the turn before obviously). What I want to do, is use one of my units to charge the front of the enemy, and the 2nd unit to charge the flank.

    IMG_0139.jpg
    This is where the units started out. Both my bottom units are very close and can easily make their charge rolls.
    IMG_0140.jpg
    This is my friends rendering of what is possible, that both units have to charge the front and maximize models, this saving his flank from attack and putting both of my units in the front to begin combat.
    IMG_0141.jpg
    This is my rendering of what I could do to maximize my ability to win combat. Charge the left unit first to hit the front of the enemy, then use my 2nd unit to charge and hit the flank of that same enemy. According to him this is illegal and I cannot do it. In a real situation I see no problem of two separate armies being able to do this. Again, obviously this is a game and I must play by the rules even though they may not match reality perfectly.

    Okay charge situation 3 - In this situation, I have a unit that is able to charge within my roll, successfully wheel around an impeding guy, and charge the back unit's flank. Now assume I have a high charge roll, thus tons of inches of movement, and a free wheel from the rulebook when charging, and a free wheel to close the door.

    IMG_0143.jpg
    As you can see, the bottom unit is separated from the back archers by one stand alone guy. My goal is to move around this guy so I can save an entire turn of having to kill that one guy first, then having to charge the back unit on a whole other separate turn.
    IMG_0144.jpg
    I begin my movement by wheeling, using my available inches.
    IMG_0145.jpg
    I then move forward slightly, again using my available inches.
    IMG_0146.jpg
    I then wheel, using my free wheel.
    IMG_0147.jpg
    I then move forward, using available charge inches.
    IMG_0148.jpg
    I then close the door using the unlimited arc to do so, according to the rulebook.

    According to my friend this is not possible and it is taking advantage of the rulebooks free wheel from charging, and free close the door wheel. Now if that is the case, I would like to know. Also, being that I cannot use the free wheels that way, if I had available inches within my charge roll to make up for not having the free wheel, can I use those and complete the same effect?

    You guys solving these problems for me would be a great help! It seems every battle we fight we come into charge questions. My interpretation of the rules, and what would happen in real life, vary drastically from his and creates a lot of conflict. Please look at each situation and judge them accordingly. If you have any questions as to what I am doing, please let me know. But it seems I keep trying to use the rules to my advantage, and his scenarios of each situation always work out to his benefit. We are both obviously biased, and need a third party judgment.

    ***If it may seem at times I do not have enough movement, please in your response state that I would not have enough movement to do the scenario normally, but should I actually get a sweet charge roll, then the situation would be possible. Just be clear as to why I can or cannot do each scenario.

    Thanks for reading the massive thread!

    AshBorn


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  3. #2
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
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    OK, here is my stab at answering these questions:

    Charge 1: I am assuming that you are farther back when the charge starts. If a single wheel move can't get you out of contact with one of the edge units, then you will attack one edge unit only. If you can wheel such that a corner of your unit can contact the archers, then you will charge them, and while closing the door contact one of the side units as well, and will be charging them. Read the section on page 18 about charging multiple units. So assuming you are far enough back, the second picture is what will end up happening.

    Charge 2: From the picture it appears that both units are in the front arc of the enemy unit. Being in this front 90 degree arc means that you can only charge the front. Therefore your friends rendering of the final positioning is correct.

    Charge 3: Again you are obviously in the front arc of both enemy units, so you must end up in the front. Also, during a charge you get one free wheel, and a free close the door, all other movement is straight at your target. The way you are going won't work. But if you can wheel your unit counterclockwise without hitting the lone model, and be inline with the back unit, you can charge them and get a couple models into combat. Note you won't move over after contact to get more models into contact. Your charge will stop with a couple models in contact from what it appears like in the picture.

    Hope that clears it up,
    SirKently
    Last edited by sirkently; December 14th, 2011 at 00:05.
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  4. #3
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    Situation 1: You are right, you are the one charging and thus deciding where you end out. By the way, if you decided to charge the archers, and rolled the distance and he decided not to flee, there is no way you could end up not being in combat with them the way he wants you to.

    Situation 2: I'm afraid to say so, but your friend is right. This is described in the BRB, if you are in the front arc of the unit you are charging then you end up in the front arc of the unit. This is because there is no general controlling the battlefield, your units just see the enemy and run directly towards them.

    Situation 3: Your friend is right again. during a charge move you may only wheel 2 times total and this includes closing the door. You are wheeling one time too many. In a related matter you could have charged the alone guy and possibly have overrun into the crossbow unit.
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  6. #4
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    Awesome ty guys!

    To recap -

    Scen 1 - I can charge the archers as long as I can hit their base, then when I close the door, if I am forced to hit a 2nd unit, I charge them too.

    Scen 2 - I can do what I proposed as long as my 2nd unit is in mostly in the 'flank arc' of the opposing unit.

    Scen 3 - Again, I can do what I propose as long as I only wheel one time, and then close the door.

    This is great thanks guys. I was not aware of the 'arc lines' that forced you to charge certain areas, and neither was he. We both are the wiser now. Also we did not know the one free wheel was the ONLY wheel you could do in a charge.

    Hopefully we'll be able to play one full game now without any conflict :p

    Thanks again,

    AshBorn

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    also you keep talking about having enough inches. In this edition you only measure closest point to closest point and then roll dice. if you make it, you make it. then you move your unit straight getting one wheel up to 90degrees and then straight again until you make contact and then you close the door. There is no measuring the wheels you do or the movement. A fair number of times this movement will be way more than what you rolled. This is highly different from previous editions. Going along with charges is understanding the charge reactions and when you take them vice when you actually move the chargers. There is other topics that handle this.

  8. #6
    Champion of Chaos Pinkus's Avatar
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    My understanding of the rules for charge 1 is if you ONLY want to charge the archers, you wheel and hit his unit and try to close the door as much as possible. Once it becomes impossible for you to close anymore without hitting his other units, then the archers are forced to close the rest of the distance. Now if it is still impossible for the archers to close the door, its a failed charge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshBorn View Post
    This is great thanks guys. I was not aware of the 'arc lines' that forced you to charge certain areas, and neither was he. We both are the wiser now. Also we did not know the one free wheel was the ONLY wheel you could do in a charge.
    Don't want to sound snarky but you do actually have the rulebook don't you? Because on page 21 there's a big diagram on it with supporting text that covers Flank and Rear charges and as far as I can tell all your questions here would have been answered by reading the charge section that begins on page 16 of the rulebook.
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  10. #8
    LO Zealot AshBorn's Avatar
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    You ever try to learn a game as complicated as warhammer by yourself and another buddy who have never seen the game except for just grabbing the interesting island of blood box from the store, from just a book? Or did you learn from someone who already knew how to play like most people?

    An 80 page rulebook, sometimes you miss stuff. I don't remember if at the time if I looked and just didn't see it or not, but I typically do and it happens.

    And no, not every question is answered directly in the rulebook when you have two different interpretations on what things mean. Which I did, as I was playing with another person who was brand new to the game as well and obviously thought he had understood it in a different way than I did. (Scenario 1)

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshBorn View Post
    You ever try to learn a game as complicated as warhammer by yourself and another buddy who have never seen the game except for just grabbing the interesting island of blood box from the store, from just a book? Or did you learn from someone who already knew how to play like most people?

    An 80 page rulebook, sometimes you miss stuff. I don't remember if at the time if I looked and just didn't see it or not, but I typically do and it happens.

    And no, not every question is answered directly in the rulebook when you have two different interpretations on what things mean. Which I did, as I was playing with another person who was brand new to the game as well and obviously thought he had understood it in a different way than I did. (Scenario 1)

    I've now learned to play Warhammer twice - first time with a buddy who'd just started, so only with the rulebook, and second time after coming back from a long break (greater than 12 years) with the same buddy and again from the rulebook. Add to that I've also been teaching the wife to play. (Plus having to make the transition from 7th edition to 8th edition which saw a lot of changes to the way some rules.

    Both times I learned to play by reading the rulebook and using it during the game. I'm not saying Warhammer isn't complicated but if you don't play it by going through the book page by page the first few times you're going to come unstuck with what are relatively straightforward (for Warhammer).

    As I said, I didn't want to sound snarky but unfortuantely there's a number of people who try and play Warhammer without actually buying the rulebook (or do and it sits there gathering dust rather than being read) and come and post on the forums. While I'll give you an A+ for actually setting up models and taking photos of the situations you had, if you'd spent the time you took taking the photos in re-reading the charge section of the rulebook you'd have answered scenarios 2 & 3 and at least have had a rough idea of what might be the case for scenario 1 before asking the question.
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  12. #10
    Rules Attorney BrockSamson's Avatar
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    Just a few last points of clarification:

    In scenario 3, that unit could never end up in the flank, regardless of distance. Front arc position means front charge.

    Also, to reiterate, charging is just measure the distance between the two closest models, if the distance rolled is > = the measurement, it's successful, the wheeling amount doesn't matter or get measured. You still have to be able to wheel past other units/terrain though, or you can't charge.

    Also, another thing that was explained to me on this very forum... you don't maximize the full frontages of units anymore. Once a charging unit hits and closes the door, that's it. There is no 'slide over to maximize' like in 7th. If you want to do this, in ensuing combat rounds, you can combat reform to bring more models into contact.

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