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  1. #1
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    Newbie Charge Question

    Hello all,

    Hopefully one of you can provide an answer for the situation I'm in. Today marks my second time ever playing Warhammer, as well as my opponent's, so we really don't have a clue what is going on.

    I am inserting an image for reference.

    charge_question1.jpg

    I am playing Hordes of Chaos and my opponent is playing Skaven. The two squares marked "C" are single model, small based, Characters. The other squares are labeled as appropriate and represent several models of the stated units. While the squares are not to scale, the distance between them almost is, but for the sake of keeping things easy lets say there is 1" between every unit that is not currently touching.

    It is the Skaven's turn. Our question is: Who exactly can the Clan Rats charge?

    They would like to attack the enemy Character but since they are in the model's front arc they can't attack on the flank, right? Since the model is fully engaged on its front arc, can it be further attacked from the front?

    If the Clan Rats attack from the flank, how is it possible, by the rules? They seem to state that the Clan Rats would have to attack the front but if we sidestep that for some reason and allow a flank attack, the rules for charging state that units can't turn, only wheel, so Clan Rats would end up wheeling into both friendly and enemy units. What if there were no units on the side to wheel into, would that change things?

    Also, what if when the Clan Rats move, instead of being an inch from the Character, they would be in base contact with him, would this change anything? Could the Character join one of the units of Clan Rats while he is in combat? What about the other unit of Clan Rats, would it matter if they were in base contact with the Character? Can friendly units come into base contact with each other as they are moving?

    As you can see, we both have a lot of questions and in this situation, until it is solved, each question seems to bring up a new set of questions so your answer will be greatly appreciated.

    Oh, and we do have one more question: When do the Plague Monks frenzy? Are they always considered to be frenzied? If they all have two hand weapons, which their stats say grant an extra attack, and they frenzy, does that mean each model gets three attacks? Also, since they have a standard bearer, who obviously doesn't have two hand weapons since he is holding a flag, is one attack die subtracted from the dice pool before rolling or is it assumed that all models get the bonus?

    Thanks in advance for all of your help!


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  3. #2
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    You're playing really tight here. You're not allowed to move other units to join combat if the wheel can't happen. You can however reform your unit so I can fit. You can flank charge then. Then you can attack whomever you like. I dont have the rulebook in me but i think once you are in combat a hero cannot join another unit until they are out of combat. Frenzied units with 2 hand weapons with normally 2A would go to 3A for the frenzy. Frenzied units are always frenzied until they loose combat or are effected by something magical that states so, or have rules specifically saying they loose it.
    Last edited by Andy Davies; March 7th, 2012 at 11:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by only_entropy_exists View Post
    It is the Skaven's turn. Our question is: Who exactly can the Clan Rats charge?
    No one, unless you can get the clan rats units into contact with the characters corners or one of the other units' corners. They are in the front arc, that's is why they have to charge into the front, as you yourself stated. Remember that if your opponent goes for the corners, then your opponent would only have one model engaged in combat in the front row. which means it's not worth it, except for the battle with the characters, where your opponent would get a whole lot of combat resolution.

    Also, what if when the Clan Rats move, instead of being an inch from the Character, they would be in base contact with him, would this change anything? Could the Character join one of the units of Clan Rats while he is in combat? What about the other unit of Clan Rats, would it matter if they were in base contact with the Character? Can friendly units come into base contact with each other as they are moving?
    When in battle the one inch rule doesn't apply, you can engage any number of units on the same side as long as your frontage is big enough. The wording of the one inch rule in the rule book is very soft and also states what to do if you get too close to another unit, so I would allow you to move past my unit with less than an inch to spare, but at the end of the move you have to have an inch between them.

    Oh, and we do have one more question: When do the Plague Monks frenzy? Are they always considered to be frenzied? If they all have two hand weapons, which their stats say grant an extra attack, and they frenzy, does that mean each model gets three attacks? Also, since they have a standard bearer, who obviously doesn't have two hand weapons since he is holding a flag, is one attack die subtracted from the dice pool before rolling or is it assumed that all models get the bonus?
    The first part about frenzy has already been answered, and I have nothing to add. But your standard bearer are for all rules purposes wielding two hands weapons as well as having frenzy, when the battle ensues we assume that he plants the standard in the ground and that it is around the standard your models fight. Which leaves him with two hands free.

    Thanks in advance for all of your help!
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    Thanks for the answers. I think we have a better understanding now. But I do have one follow up question based on this reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lasso290391 View Post
    Remember that if your opponent goes for the corners, then your opponent would only have one model engaged in combat in the front row. which means it's not worth it, except for the battle with the characters, where your opponent would get a whole lot of combat resolution.
    In this case, it would be advantageous for the Clan Rats to corner to corner charge the Chaos Character, right? Because when combat resolution comes the Chaos Character is going to lose big time due to their extra ranks and being outnumbered and so he will probably Break and Flee, correct? If he doesn't, that's good for me, but strategy would dictate that the both units of Clan Rats charge the Character, yes?

    But say the Chaos Character doesn't Break, for whatever reason and the Skaven Character dies instead. Do the Clan Rats remain only in corner to corner contact with the Chaos Character until one side breaks or dies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by only_entropy_exists View Post
    Because when combat resolution comes the Chaos Character is going to lose big time due to their extra ranks and being outnumbered and so he will probably Break and Flee, correct?
    You can't outnumber in this edition, but yes, they probably have a standard and 3 ranks which gives a +4 to combat resolution.
    If he doesn't, that's good for me, but strategy would dictate that the both units of Clan Rats charge the Character, yes?
    No, one unit is plenty, the other would wait/move in position to help somewhere else.
    But say the Chaos Character doesn't Break, for whatever reason and the Skaven Character dies instead. Do the Clan Rats remain only in corner to corner contact with the Chaos Character until one side breaks or dies?This is where reforms come into play, read up on it on your own, there is pretty much about it in the rule book, and it would be beneficial if you read these section, to get your own understanding of those rules. They can be found on pages 14, 55, 68 and 77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasso290391 View Post
    You can't outnumber in this edition
    The most current rule book we have is from the Battle for Skull Pass box set. We also have an older book from the older Goblins versus High Elves box set but I guess that really doesn't count for anything. We also have the old Magic box set, which I guess is also useless now. So the rules really changed a lot between version 7 (which is what I have, right?) and version 8 (which is current, right?)? I have Skaven books from 2002 and 2009, not sure which version they are for but I'm guessing the 2009 version is outdated just like our rule books.

    I do not want to shell out additional money just to play and enjoy the game. Is there a cheap/easy way/place to get the new rule set? Should I buy a used book from the Island of Blood set off eBay? That is the cheapest way I can think of to get a copy of the new rules. In your opinion, how much harm is there is in continuing to play by the rule book that we have? Obviously it has rules for outnumbering an opponent's unit which doesn't apply to the new addition and I'm sure there are other such revisions. Are we really missing out or does it boil down to a matter of taste?

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    Nothing is standing in the way of you playing by 7th edition rules, but 8th edition and 7th edition are very, very, very different things. I'd refer you to Rork's signature. If you want to play by 8th edition rules, you need to get the rulebook, it is not a case of 10 or 20 things having changed, every turn has changed quite dramatically.
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    Books are hardly the most expensive part of this game either. But even more do than the rule book, as a player of both skaven and chaos, your lists have changed quite dramatically, I would at least shell out for those.

    Have the skaven player buy the new Isle of Blood box. It is skaven vs. HE I believe, so he'll get skaven models, and it comes with an 8th rule book.
    Fear me, mortals, for I am The Anointed, The Favored Son of Chaos, The Scourge of the World. The armies of the Gods rally behind me, and it is by My Will and by My Sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, The Everchosen, Lord of the End Times

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