Two quick questions: Shields and missiles - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member Orakar's Avatar
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    Two quick questions: Shields and missiles

    Two short questions =]

    1)

    I know, from reading the Warhammer rulebook, that shields only give a +1 to armour saves in combat, and NOT against ranged attacks (which, imo makes no sense but nevermind).

    However, in the Dwarfs army book, which is a lot newer than the rulebook, under a caption for a Dwarf Hammer unit, it says: "We added shields to the hammerers to protect them from missile fire".

    Now, how can they be protected by missile fire with shields, if shields don't work against shooting? oO

    2)

    I pretty much know the answer to this, but oh well.

    You can't shoot at models that are engaged in combat. Does that include shooting at a unit which half of the models arn't in combat or not?

    For example:

    A unit of 30 orcs attack a unit of 5 dwarfs. 5 of the orcs, the front row, can attack the dwarfs and the rest of the orc are not individually engaged in combat.

    The justification for not being able to shoot at a unit engaged in combat, is that you may shoot your own men. Does that mean you can't shoot at the entire unit? Surely a unit of accurate dwarfen handgunners could shoot at a unit of 30 orcs, 25 of which arn't even fighting with a dwarf, and not kill any allies?

    Thanks =D


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  3. #2
    Keeper of Records and Ale King Ulrik Flamebeard's Avatar
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    1372 (x8)

    1) A shield confers a 6+ save at all times, be it in combat or against shooting. There are a few exceptionn, the main being if the model is armed with a weapon that requires two hands - then they may not use the shield if they choose to use that weapon.

    So to answer your question, shields give saves against both shooting and combat. I suggest you read the armour sections a bit more carefully, these rules are rather clear here.

    Page 64, 'Saves -Armour Saves' Explains the saves, this applies to combat to and is repeated in the combat section too.

    2) No matter how many models are engaged in combat the entire unit counts as being in combat, so not you cannot fire at a unit if only a few are in base-to-base. [Unless you're Skaven but that's a rule explained in their army book].



    KU

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    thanks =]

    I was reading the part on page 88, bottom right hand side, which says that a model carrying a hand weapon and a shield increases it's armour save by +1, ONLY in combat and not from shooting, magic, or other means. I'm not sure if i can quote the rulebook on these forums.

    This is either a direct contradiction, or implies that a unit with a shield and hand weapon, gets a +1 added to it's save for the shield (the details on page 64), AND a further +1 added to it's save for having the combination of a hand weapon and a shield...but only when fighting in combat?

    So does that mean, a normal guy with no armour, except a hand weapon and a shield, gets a 6+ save against shooting because of his shield, and then a 5+ save in combat, because of his shield and hand weapon?

    Kinda makes sense. Is that right?

  5. #4
    Keeper of Records and Ale King Ulrik Flamebeard's Avatar
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    1372 (x8)

    Yeah, you are correct. If armed with a hand weapon and shield, you get 6+ save vrs shooting but a 5+ in combat. The +1 you are referring too is often reguarded as the 'parry' rule, from the description that the Hand weapon is used to parry an attack adding an additional point of save.

    If you note the wording in the paragraph of page 88 is says;

    "...may increase his save by a further +1.."
    Increase denoates that fact that there is already a save present, the shield is the simplist form of armour - handy item. But yes, you are indeed correct.

    KU

  6. #5
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    1283 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orakar
    thanks =]

    This is either a direct contradiction, or implies that a unit with a shield and hand weapon, gets a +1 added to it's save for the shield (the details on page 64), AND a further +1 added to it's save for having the combination of a hand weapon and a shield...but only when fighting in combat?
    Yes.

    So does that mean, a normal guy with no armour, except a hand weapon and a shield, gets a 6+ save against shooting because of his shield, and then a 5+ save in combat, because of his shield and hand weapon?

    Kinda makes sense. Is that right?
    Yes.

    It's often referred to as the parry bonus. As long as you're using a mundane shield and hand weapon, and are a man-sized model on foot, you can claim an additional +1 to your armor save while in hth combat.
    Painting Videos--My Warriors of Chaos--WHFB Tactica Index
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  7. #6
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    I wondered why my Dwarfs wern't as tough as they were made out to be!
    haha!

    Damn, I overlooked that. They're gonna be sorry now!

    Thanks a lot mate, Kudos for you =]=]
    Current Army: Dwarfs


  8. #7
    Tabletop Terraformer Tzeentch Lord's Avatar
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    109 (x4)

    Most of your questions have been answered already, but there's a couple of things I need to add:
    Quote Originally Posted by Orakar
    I know, from reading the Warhammer rulebook, that shields only give a +1 to armour saves in combat, and NOT against ranged attacks
    Clearly you haven't read the rulebook fully then! Anyway, as everyone has said, shields confer a 6+ armour save against close combat and shooting, or when used with a hand weapon in combat, a 5+ save. This of course can be combined with armour (light, heavy, gromril, etc) for a better save. Also, models can carry shields and weapons which require two hands (great weapons, halberds) because while they can't use them in combat, they can still claim the extra save versus shooting attacks.

    Finally, to claim the parry rule in combat, the model must be using a mundane hand weapon and a mundane shield. That means you can't claim it if your model is using a magical hand weapon or magical shield (or both). This also still applies to Dwarfs who don't technically have 'magic items', since they use Runes to make their weapons and armour magical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orakar
    You can't shoot at models that are engaged in combat. Does that include shooting at a unit which half of the models arn't in combat or not?
    Normally you cannot shoot at models in combat, the Skaven can, but that's a special rule of theirs. However, when it comes to template weapons you can still 'target' a unit that is in combat, but if any part of the template touches any models (friendly or enemy) who are in base contact with each other and fighting in combat, then you've shot into combat and hits are randomised. I think the full rules for it are in the rulebook under shooting - template weapons.
    "Peace, through superior firepower."

  9. #8
    Son of LO
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    523 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzeentch Lord
    Normally you cannot shoot at models in combat, the Skaven can, but that's a special rule of theirs. However, when it comes to template weapons you can still 'target' a unit that is in combat, but if any part of the template touches any models (friendly or enemy) who are in base contact with each other and fighting in combat, then you've shot into combat and hits are randomised. I think the full rules for it are in the rulebook under shooting - template weapons.
    You don't randomise but distribute them equally. Even so the BRB, when describing the situation, says that it arises when template weapons deviate. To me this implies it has scattered onto the fighting.

    It also says the reason for not being able to shoot into combat is that the chance of hitting your own men is too high. Now i don't see any reason why a stone thrower crew would be any less worried about this than other shooty units.

    So my conclusion would be that you can't 'target' an engaged unit with a war machine.

    I think the war machine rules need serious revision anyway, as they are too open for abuse. Maybe by the letter of the law you can 'target' a melee, but i would consider it very unsporting for someone to do so, and is certainly something i wouldn't do.

    Ciao

    Stonehambey

  10. #9
    Member Orakar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzeentch Lord
    Clearly you haven't read the rulebook fully then! Anyway, as everyone has said, shields confer a 6+ armour save against close combat and shooting, or when used with a hand weapon in combat, a 5+ save.
    I had read it, but because I didn't know about parry, I thought the rulebook had contradicted itself =]

    But seriously? I can't take parry if i have a magical weapon? gah! =P
    Current Army: Dwarfs


  11. #10
    Tabletop Terraformer Tzeentch Lord's Avatar
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    109 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stonehambey
    You don't randomise but distribute them equally. Even so the BRB, when describing the situation, says that it arises when template weapons deviate. To me this implies it has scattered onto the fighting.
    Yeah, I think that's what I meant! :huh: It's been a while since I read that part of the rulebook, but I know it mentioned something about templates hitting melees and both sides suffering the consequences if any models in combat got hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orakar
    I had read it, but because I didn't know about parry, I thought the rulebook had contradicted itself =]
    But seriously? I can't take parry if i have a magical weapon? gah! =P
    I know, many players get confused over this, mainly because the 'parry' rule (as with many of the rules in fact) are hidden in passages of text, rather than being properly listed as actual rules. The other problem is that it doesn't actually have a name! It's been called the parry rule by players so that we don't have to spell out the rule each time we refer to it. But it was never named the parry rule by the designers.

    Finally, sorry, it's true. No parrying with magic weapons or shields. Of course, once again the rules don't actually make any mention of this, it had to be FAQed! :glare: It makes no sense that you can't parry with a magic sword, or even if you have two hand weapons! But I think the idea was that other weapon combinations already have advantages to taking them, a hand weapon and shield was probably the most worthless combo to carry until they added this in.
    "Peace, through superior firepower."

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