Hey guys

I was at the store recently and witnessed a brutal game of warhammer. It was a 2v2 battle at 1500 points.

On one side were 2 brothers who had just started playing. One had bought a tau battle force while the other bought a necron battle force. They did not know the rules too well or the strategies that were required to be successful.

On the other side were two of our store veterans who had massive numbers of models to choose from. One was playing tyranids and brought 2 hive tyrants and one carnifex as well as some gaunts and the other was playing khorne with a tooled up demon prince and all kinds of other chaos nastyness.

Needless to say the veterans won the game. Once the game had ended however, people at the store including myself began to chew the two veterans up for playing powerlists versus relative newbies to the game with very limited armies.

I want your opinions on this.... do you guys think it was right to call them out for playing in such a brutal fashion against new players? Or do you think that such a beating is good for the newbies who will be forced to learn faster given their humilating defeat?

If you absolutely must feel compelled to route newbies, at least do it with beardy tactics instead of a beardy list. At least there's a chance they'll feel like they're learning a bit about the rules and building up their game instead of feeling like they just don't have a chance. You may read 100x the rule that says you can't regroup with an enemy in 6". You learn it the first time someone chases 3/4 of an expensive squad off the board with an empty rhino.

disclaimer: the author assumes no liability for any hazing of newbies you may engage in as a result of this post. Hazing of newbies is discouraged by the authorship of this post. Teach your newbies, love your newbies; they might remember you and go easy when they're kicking your butt at the tournament in two years =).

My first game was worse then your 2vs2 game. It wasn't even a game of points, just 2 troops and an HQ (I didn't know the points system when I started). My gaunts, hormies, and 3 warriors didn't stand a chance against 2 full chaos squads with LC, and what I believe was either a mega-tooled DP or Kharn. I lost everything, but learned the points system right after that.

It's good to haze the newbies in battle, it just makes them stronger.

Did the new guys enjoy the game. Were the vets friendly and sporting throughout? These are more important than the lists they were playing IMO

Did the new guys enjoy the game. Were the vets friendly and sporting throughout? These are more important than the lists they were playing IMO

This is the key thing, if the newbies had fun and enjoyed themselves and were inspired then theres nothing wrong with losing, as if the game was fantastic, great storyline etc etc you don't really mind too much if you lose, but if they just played cruel powerhouses then it defeats the object really.

You see personally, if the battle was set up great the motivation was good, the players were sportsmanlike and we had a great time, then i wouldn't mind if i lost.

My first battle ever was versus the store manager as he was showing me the game.He had Dark Eldar I was given SM. Now i look back he twisted the rules slightly,and didn't tell me key thing, so i would win, and accomanyed everything with characterful exclaimations and storylines and stuff, it was a great game, really inspiring.:D

ow thats harsh!

when I was a wee little newbie and didn't have much experience the staff got someone (who's not a staff member) to battle me with an iron warriors list, that I beat!

then the next time I was they, he said the staff told him to go easy on me, but this was after I slaughtered another vet player's new chaos force *waits for redux and gets pwned*

so most people, especially vets are nice at my GW (but the 10 year old newbs are so annoying with their attitudes!)

(but the 10 year old newbs are so annoying with their attitudes!)

We've got one like that at our club, he collects Imperial Guard and hes about 13 14 maybee? He acts like he knows everything, hurls 'useful tactical advise' at everything and such like stuff. You know the type.

Thats all well and good if everyone likes you, its not all the time and you do actually know what your on about. He hasn't a clue. I massacred his whole army in two or three turns, so much for his tactical know how, after he told me how he was gonna kick my ass and how weak all the other armies on the board were. He even has the cheek to critizise our model painting when his is dipped i think! Sorry outburst over :shifty:

I did that once...around a week after I'd finished in the top 40 at the 40k GT.

A new kid turns up at the club, and I'm the only one without a game yet. He'd been playing for a year or two, and had ultramarines.

So I cut my army down to fit his 1k army, and we proceeded to play. His army selection and deployment were bad, and his strategy unfocused. I evaded his large firebase (of heavy bolter devastators) and took apart things like assault marines with a chaplain that (Deep struck :O) came my way.

I slaughtered him in around an hour. With so much time spare, I thought it would be sporting to let him have the superior army and I'd have the dodgy ultramarines.

I promptly took my own army to pieces with an army I'd never used before or seen before that evening (and they say there's not strategy in 40k ;) ). I honestly figured he'd stand a better chance using the Eldar...

40k isn't just about making a good army list :ninja:.

If I were to play my first game again and facing someone way more experienced than me, I wouldn't really care if my opponent beat me with a good list or cunning tactics as long as it was a fun game to play.
And I for one think a game against monsterous creatures and Daemon Princes can be a very good introduction to the 40k universe. Like a trailer for a movie, you get the juicy bits and know there is much more where that came from.
If it were to be an instructional game though... like "I, John the Experienced, will teach you the fine art of this tactical game- these are three Monoliths, you have no lascannons -let's play." that would be quite boring. But it sounds as if it was just a game, so...

(but the 10 year old newbs are so annoying with their attitudes!)
LOL, so you say...so you say...

"I, John the Experienced, will teach you the fine art of this tactical game- these are three Monoliths, you have no lascannons -let's play." .

It's been 5 minutes and I'm still laughing uncontrollably at this statement...

My First ever game of BFG was similar. I played a poorly planned Marine fleet vs. a veteran player. He threw a couple of planets on the board for terrain and then proceeded to used a planaet to slingshot at me in a ay I hadn't read about yet. He apologized, but I told him "Hey, I'll learn more about this game if you use your entire toolbox"

I learned because I saw what was possible. Now, if you are like 33 and are playing a 10 year old who is reading up on how to move units... well that may be going too far.

In general, if you are friendly about it, feel free to obliterate newbs in an educational manner. It will expand their consciousness.

Playing against someone brand new to the game, I'd take whatever list I felt like, but I'd teach them the game as I went. I wouldn't just assume they knew the rules, because obviously they don't - I'd go step-by-step in the gaming process to teach them things like movement, shooting, weapon range, close combat rules, and the likes. I'd also be fair and friendly, to ensure that they have a good time - if they lost, I'd tell them it was because they were playing someone who's been at it much longer than them (jokingly say that I've been at it too long) and I've had more time to read into things, and that they'll get there. If they beat me in anything, I'd congratulate them.

So, as was said previously, were they friendly and helpful? Or did they just take some perverse pleasure in smacking a couple newbies around, who probably won't want to come back?

I suppose I've been lucky thus far - the only people I play, are about at the exact same level as me, if a little less because none of them actually come on LO, though I've been trying to get a few of them to.

Did the new guys enjoy the game. Were the vets friendly and sporting throughout? These are more important than the lists they were playing IMO

Exactly.
What you also don't provide us with are other details. Did the two vets have time to make new lists? Was their massive choice of other models actually available to them at the current time?

If that was the case and they had just brought the minis they had for their lists, and the game was actually planned on the fly and not before hand, Then IMO its wrong for you to have laid into the vets like that. Completely out of line in fact.

I mean, if all they did was just take cheesy lists, did you lot actually give the vets a chance to actually give any advice before you laid into them? Don't forget that they have obviously come for a game as well as the newbies. A bit of fun with their toy soldiers, that they have bought. Just like many of us.

HOWEVER, if they had both been total ****'s from the start of the first dice roll, well that kinda makes it justified in a way.

IMO, its not the lists that normally matters... like Stone said, its the way the player plays.

Did the new guys enjoy the game. Were the vets friendly and sporting throughout? These are more important than the lists they were playing IMO

The veterans were the two most harsh, competitive, and win obessive players at my store. I'm, sure they played fairly and taught the two brothers the rules as they went along. However, i do feel that the brothers looked dejected after not being able to kill anything more than a few gaunts.

One thing I forgot to mention is that these two brothers were very tight on money and had few options when it comes to getting new 40k gear. One couldn't even afford a codex and had to borrow the stores copy (which our nice manager allowed). Seeing how their 2 battle forces faired against tooled up armies would obviously discourage anyone who knew they would be stuck with those limited models for a while.

All of our store guys tried to cheer the brothers up after their crushing defeat, but we all knew their warhammer wins weren't going to rack up any time soon.

Exactly.
What you also don't provide us with are other details. Did the two vets have time to make new lists? Was their massive choice of other models actually available to them at the current time?

If that was the case and they had just brought the minis they had for their lists, and the game was actually planned on the fly and not before hand, Then IMO its wrong for you to have laid into the vets like that. Completely out of line in fact.

I mean, if all they did was just take cheesy lists, did you lot actually give the vets a chance to actually give any advice before you laid into them? Don't forget that they have obviously come for a game as well as the newbies. A bit of fun with their toy soldiers, that they have bought. Just like many of us.

HOWEVER, if they had both been total ****'s from the start of the first dice roll, well that kinda makes it justified in a way.

IMO, its not the lists that normally matters... like Stone said, its the way the player plays.

The vets had time to configure their lists in any way prior to the game. How we do it at our store is people bring their models and make up lists on the spot depending on the points played. We often do many impromptu games with whoever is there playing against whoever else is there.

And yes they both had around 3000 pnts of models availible to them, of which 750 was to be used.

I had just gotten to the store midway through their game, so I can't comment on what happened at the beginning. If I was there at the beginning I would have told them to switch teams or chewed them out or something of that nature. Also remember it wasn't just me but most of the other store veterans that chewed these guys out.

The way I see it, if I'm going to game with a guy who had just brought a battle force to the table and is still learning the game, it would be shameful for me to take my 750 pnt power gaming list and smash him in the face with it. There would be no joy in my victory. The two veterans had many chances to even up the odds (play with fair teams, play with fair lists, allow the newbie to proxy... etc etc) but they didn't. Of course this is only from my perspective and others will of course see things differently.

It sounds like the vets had a field day allright. Whether or not it was educational to the noobs was another thing however.

In my local store, every attempt is made by literally everyone to encourage noobs to take whatever they have onto the table. It's the only real way to learn how the rules translate onto the table. I remembered my first game with my BT army.

At the time, I put off gaming until I had collected about 1000 pts. worth of footsloggers onto the table. I had 2 squads of initiatiates, a ten man assault squad which I had bought second hand from another player who was moving on to other armies, and of course the obligatory chaplain and EC. I paired up with another Daemonhunter player who was more or less in the same sad straits as I was and we went up against my best mate who was a vet necron player.

1000 BT + 1000 DH vs. 2000 Necron.

Of course he brought his monolith and the Nightbringer. A Necron lord with a retinue of immortals and squads of destroyers and necron warriors. So what happened?

They Demonhunter and the Necron player took me to one side and explained how their units worked. I told them what I knew of mine. Then we actually predicted how the battle was going to go and some usefull tips to remember while gaming (especially about ideal deployment, measuring stuff with the tape and troop movement). We started what became a two and a half hour battle, it was very intense but we all thoroughly enjoyed it despite the impromptu coaching for my benefit. I lost almost everything on the table except for 4 intiates and 3 assault guys (my task was to tie up necron units and avoid getting blasted to bits by the monolith), but we won. At the end game, everyone shook hands to a good game.

This kind of experience is important I think. It doesn't matter if we win or lose, it's how you play and get your fix that really matters.

Chapel that sounds like the perfect starter game. You were pitted against what my opinion is the second most powerful tank in the game, and a C'tan is never fun to play against. You had the tactical advantange (two heads are better than one, even if they are only half as smart points wise) but was playing against a veteran with an already powerful army. But you were lucky to play against a good friend, so this reminds you how 40k is fun (the most important factor in my mind).

I evny you

The vets had time to configure their lists in any way prior to the game. How we do it at our store is people bring their models and make up lists on the spot depending on the points played. We often do many impromptu games with whoever is there playing against whoever else is there.

And yes they both had around 3000 pnts of models availible to them, of which 750 was to be used.

I had just gotten to the store midway through their game, so I can't comment on what happened at the beginning. If I was there at the beginning I would have told them to switch teams or chewed them out or something of that nature. Also remember it wasn't just me but most of the other store veterans that chewed these guys out.

The way I see it, if I'm going to game with a guy who had just brought a battle force to the table and is still learning the game, it would be shameful for me to take my 750 pnt power gaming list and smash him in the face with it. There would be no joy in my victory. The two veterans had many chances to even up the odds (play with fair teams, play with fair lists, allow the newbie to proxy... etc etc) but they didn't. Of course this is only from my perspective and others will of course see things differently.

The veterans were the two most harsh, competitive, and win obessive players at my store. I'm, sure they played fairly and taught the two brothers the rules as they went along. However, i do feel that the brothers looked dejected after not being able to kill anything more than a few gaunts.


Ah, right, fair enough then.
I guess its hard to say whether or not you were justified in chewing them out or not unless I was actually there at the time.
All I can really do if compare the way I would act to the details you provide.

Myself, I'm a tourney player mostly, so regardless of whether my opponent is a newbie or not, I am always having to play test my lists. (Given the few games I get at the minute.)
But that doesn't mean I'm in anyway always out to win. And plus, like you've mentioned, newblets need love and care! Without newblets the hobby dies. (Or rather more likely, your club/shop/gaming night)
But then I think its just down to the way you treat them I guess.

Remember...everyone here has been a newbie to the hobby and im pretty certain that we have all faced similar lists at least once or twice in our gaming lives, For me i think its kind of a right of passage, getting a good whooping via a vet is something we have all had to go through at least once and being dropped in at the deep end, means even new players will wisen up quick and after a few games with a bit of advice will be getting revenge on said verteran player :)

Aslong as the new players learn the rules and enjoy the game, thats what counts, Ask yourself..when you played your first game of warhammer/40k....did you expect to win ?

I will say...IF its the same vets, picking on new players and picking up easy wins Constantly then yes something probably should be done, either a complaint should be made to the runner of the club or GW staff member if its in the store, Personally if a certain individual started doing that in my local gaming group...they would probably get shuch a ripping and be made fun of every 5 mins that they would think twice about challange newbs for an easy win.

hope that helps ! :)

Power gamers annoy most people especially when they chew you out with an impossible list, but the more important thing is them giving you advice as you play. Things like "you might not wan to put that flamer behind the rest of you troops" or "if you move that super expensive land raider their my lascannon can hit the rear armour". AS long as you had fun and learnt from the game its not a problem.

By the way I do sympathise we had a couple of little kids effectively banned from games nights at our GW because they refused to use the proper rules and ran around the store if they weren't playing a game.

Again, I'd like to point out that "powergamer" does not automatically equal "jackass".

Although there are a lot of jackass powergamers out there, there are also a lot of powergamers out there that go all out to win every game they play but do so in a friendly sociable manner... just go to any tournament to see several examples.

It's just that they get a bad rep because of certain people that take things a bit too far.

Hi scarlet squig.
I have to agree whole heartedly.
I learned lots of war games and GW hobby games by playing more experianced players.(Well obviously, Doh!:D)
But when we, played we chatted, and had a good game 'postmortem' at the end.
And even after I suffered utter and total defeat,my more experianced opponent usualy gave me some priase for using some good tactics etc.

I think this one of the most important part of the game ,the freindly informative post game annalasis.

People who feel they have to belittle others while playing a game, are insecure and should be pitied!

REMEBER,
Never take an idiot with you ,you can always find one when you get there!:D

TTFN
Lanrak