There are a fairly decent number of kroot players around the world and I think they would all apreciate an update to 4th edition for their codex, most of all after having seen the mods that the kroot in the Tau codex got.

I know for a fact that if we stay here and wait, GW will NEVER EVER EVER give us a free upgrade, leaving us in the "mud" for the rest of gaming eternity...

So how do you think we guys should proceed to propose something to GW?

EDIT: Ok, I have a snail-mail adress for GW in Nottingham: who's up for writing a review of the codex (shouldn't take that long) and I'll send it off, hoping to receive some sort of an answer?

For many years ive been wanting a Kroot update. I recently came up with some ideas that i think might bring the Merc list up to par with the rest of the armies out there. Or atleast give them a bit of a boost without making them over the top crazy.


First off a New bit of wargear


Support of the Greater Good - 30 pts (Master Shapers only, may NOT be combined with a Kroothawk Totem or Signature Evolutionary Adaptations)

Under very rare circumstances the Tau have been known to hire entire war bands of Kroot Mercenaries for select missions where the Kroot’s ability for brute force and gorilla warfare is a better tactic than the Tau doctrine of battle. When sent out on their own these war bands are still often “accompanied” by small numbers of Tau forces. Though more often than not it is to make sure they fulfill their contract as many Tau commanders see the Kroot as nothing more than Mercenaries.

A Kroot Mercenary army that that contains the "Support of the Greater Good" may include the following units from Codex: Tau Empire.

0-1 XV8 'Crisis Battle suit Team (P34) or Stealth Team (P35) as Heavy support
0-1 Fire warrior Team as Elites (P36)
0-1 Vespid Stingwings as Elites (P39)

In addition to these unit’s all Shapers and Master Shapers in the army may take either a Pulse Rifle or Pulse Carbine for +5 points as part of their wargear allowance.


Updates/changes to the army list.

Signature Evolutionary Adaptations

Chameleon should now read:
Having feasted upon the flesh of chameleonic reptiles, the band has gained a limited ability to blend into its surroundings.
All models have a 6+ cover save when in the open additionally they also gain a +1 to their cover save, however this has no effect in jungle terrain.

(think this is fairly close to what everyone else has said also)


Elites

Stalker Kindred are totaly unused in the Kroot armylist. They have one special rule that can only be used in a jungle fight missions. Otherwise they are identical to standard Kroot and just not worth their points. This update i think would make them a very usefull unit and not overpowered

Stalker Kindred Entry should now Read

Squad: The kindred numbers 5-10 Kroot. 1-5 Kroot Hounds may be attached.
Equipment: Kroot warriors and Shapers carry Kroot rifles.
Options: The entire kindred (excluding Kroot Hounds) may be equipped with frag grenades at +1 point per model and/or krak grenades for +2 points per model.
Character: One Kroot must be upgraded to a Shaper at an additional cost of +21 pts. Some Shapers carry weaponry gifted by their employers and may choose additional equipment from the Armoury.
Ambush: Instead of being set up normaly, one unit of Stalker Kindred can be sent out ahead of the army to lay in ambush for the coming battle. They will use their Natural skills and feildcraft to work their way round behind the enemy position and then attack the enemy from the rear. If you decide to use this option then the Stalker unit must be kept in reserve, even in missions that normally don’t allow reserves to be used. When the stalkers become available from reserve they must enter play from the opponents table edge rather than your own. If the opponent doesn’t have a table edge then they may not use this rule.


Troops

Bagage knarloc

See Page 220 of Imperial Armour Vol 3 - The Taros Campaign for details

This is more just to say that I think the Imperial armour rules items should be standard in the Kroot rules :)

Fast Attack

Vulture Kindred
Options should now read

Options: The entire kindred may be equipped with frag grenades at +1 point per model and/or Melta bombs for +5 points.

Simple update that brings them to 18 points a peice with both upgrades but makes them a viable tank hunting unit (without an evicerator), Rather than just a fast moving Kroot squad

Heavy Suport

Krootox Heard entry should Now read
(Stats the same as Codex Tau)
Squad: 3-10 Krootox Riders
Equipment: Krootox riders are armed with a Kroot gun.
Character: One Kroot must be upgraded to a Shaper at an additional cost of + 21 pts. Some Shapers carry weaponry gifted by their employers and may choose replace his Kroot gun with or take additional equipment from the Armory. A Kroot gun is a 2 handed weapon.

Note: If a Shaper chooses an additional Close combat weapon from the armory (E.g. Evicerator or Power weapon). That weapon uses the Shapers basic Strength of 4. He may still chose to use the Ox’s strength and basic attacks in close combat, however these attacks gain no bonuses from close combat weapons purchased from the armory.

The biggest problem with the Ox at the moment is that you must take normal kroot with them and a minimal squad of 3 ox and 10 kroot comes to just over 250 points. They are just not worth it. This change imo makes them more inline with the stats of the Tau Codex but also makes them more worth taking.

Punji Traps entry should now read

Setup: You may setup Punji Traps within any terrain feature on the table not within the enemy’s deployment zone
Trigger: Punji Trap's automatically hit any enemy model or unit that moves through the terrain feature which contains at least one Trap. Place one small Blast marker for each trap within the terrain feature over the model/unit that triggered the trap. The normal rules for blast weapons apply. E.g. any models fully under the Blast marker are hit automatically, and any partially under are hit on a 4+ (see page 30 of the Warhammer 40,000 rule book for more details). Remove the Trap Markers after the have been used as the enemy now knows where they are to avoid them.
Ignore Cover Saves: Punji traps ignore cover saves.
Pinning: Any unit that suffers one or more casualties from a punji trap must test for pinning.


Great Knarloc Pack

See page 159 of the Apocalypse rulebook for details



I also had an idea to make the Basic Kindred a bit better. Add the Feral Leap attack option (ala Dawn of War) but only allow the Troops Kindred to have it. I dont know if this is a good idea or not. Hence why i havent added it to the list above.

Basicly I was thinking maybe a 3 or 4 point upgrade that gives them an extra d6 inches to their assult move. And if they use this extra movement to get into assult then they also get Furious charge. However if they assult from within 6 inches they can't use it as they are too close to leap? Something allong those lines anyway.

Please let me know what you think.
Thanks for reading

Comments please :D (ps If the Krootox entry has violated any rules please let me know and ill change it as a theoretical post i'm not sure if it is)

On another note. You should check out the Kompletely Kroot boards. Its a web site im a member of. Nothing but Kroot players :) Id add a link but for some reason it wont let me. Might have to Google it :D A few years back members of the site wrote a whole Kroot Codex. Its not bad at all but unfortunatly i think it went a little overboard and was just no a realistic army. They also got rid of the Vulture and wing options, a big no no imo. But still. You might find some ideas in that you enjoy also :)

Ok, here go my comments...

- Support of the Greater Good: other than being quite unbalancing (it would give kroot access to a unit of pulse-rifle wielding tau, which would really wonderfully complement their HtH skills... absolutely no!) it is also unfluffy. Tau have practically enslaved Kroot and want them to fight only for their race. Bands of Mercenary Kroot are "illegal" to the eyes of Tau, so why on earth should they help them?

- Good with the Chameleon SEA modification. I'd add the fact that we should also modify Sixth Sense and Nocturnal (or just plain take them off the list!) as they are by far the less wanted SEAs. Also, I'd like to see a wargear improvement for Shapers that allows their unit to have a different SEA from the rest of the army. Something around 15-20 point's I'd say.

- Stalker kindred Ambush rules sound good enough, though such small units might prove to be a hindrance. Nevertheless they are able to assault from the enemy's table edge... ^^ Or we could use the lictor Secret Deployment rule, although it would be quite complicated with a whole unit, rather than one single MC.

- Knarlocs: they are cool and everyone likes them, but we do not have a proper model for them, unless you want to pay the gazillion pounds for the ForgeWorld one. What would be useful would be a possible conversion, maybe using a lizardmen Carnosaur (the big t-rex looking thing.. not sure about the name...)

- Vulture Kindred with meltas are sweet and not exceptionally overpowerd as they still have to reach the vehicle.

- Like the mod on the Krootox Herd, makes them finally playable if you want to have a little shooty covering from behind the lines. The krootox rider 6 strength probibally comes from the riders 4 +2 from the mount (like the khornate juggernaut) so should stack, though not be doubled. As anyway that would take an eviscerator to S10 (can't have 12) I'd say we don't really need to point out the rule. (the post is against the rules as we are not supposed to post ANY stat or point cost and just to be on the safe side, this applies even to kroot mercs athough their codex is public)

- Punji traps? NAAAAH! They would be a definite point sink, bothering only guards and 'nids... who'll just shake off any casualties with their huge numbers. I'd say we write them off. By the way, you forgot to write what S they have.

- Don't like the proposition for the mods on the Carnivore Kindred as it would make them excessively overpowerd (you'd be able to have a WHOLE first turn assault army like this, without even having to take the hounds out!) and they would even be better, as they would also get the bonus Furious Charge on the first turn... which would be nasty indeed!

- What MUST be done is conform the whole codex to the new Tau one, so:
* Shapers aren't mandatory
* Kroot base cost is one point less, with no armor save. You can buy the 6+ armor if you have a Shaper.
* Hounds lose the "Release the Hounds" rule but gain a point of Initiative.
* All Kroot lose the eaters of the dead rule (which is what REALLY hinders the army)
* All Kroot lose a point of Leadership (bad, bad, bad! But why should ours be better than theirs?) except for Shapers (which on the whole means that if you go on fielding shapers you won't have any problems whatsoever)
* Change to Fieldcraft rule, as in they don't need to remain stationary anymore to see throuh 12" of woods.

- Changes should be made for the head-hunter Kindred: the one attack, wound on 4+ rule is just rubbish! What could be done is over-price them 5-6pts with regards to normal troopers and give them rending or giving the possibility to 1/2 of the unit to receive the rending upgrade for 5-6 extra pts. I know rending is all the new rave, but it isn't soo overwhelming: yes it means you can go against anything on the table, even tanks, but you have to have a discrete amount of luck, plus it costs you quite a lot!

- Changes should be made for the Tracker Kindred: they are the perfect small assault unit now, but they are armed with sniper rifles! >_< If we'd swap their Hunting Rifles, with normal Kroot Rifles, they would be just perfect! Maybe leave them the possibility of exchanging them back to hunting rifles if someone actually found a use for them that wasn't Eviscerator delivery!

- Shaper Council is really nice and all, but it's a whole load of points in a unit with T3 and 6+ save... what would you think if they were changed in a unit of inbetween shapers (not as naff as the Master, but better than regular) that can either operate as a single unit or be attached to the different Kindreds, actually giving them an extra leadership point, plus an extra eviscerator/powerweapon?

Nothing else comes to mind right now... maybe later! :D

While it would be great to see, I don't think there is enough of a fanbase behind Kroot Mercenaries. Also, keep in mind that they are technically still just a Chapter Approved army list, not necessarily with their own 'codex.' I wouldn't be surprised if GW left them untouched for a long time.

Besides, there are still several armies that need updates first (Dark Eldar springs to mind).

well if GWS took the time to make this chapter approved list.... i' pretty sure it would not hurt them to update a few rules and stave of the dark eldar (which wat they have been doing for a while now....)

besides against guard.... +6 save blows. the option to take or not would definetly be welcome as allow me to buy more kroot :P who are already more expensive then normal with adaptations

Feral leap*drool*, although furoius charge maybe be extreme but the d6 extra is nice (maybe +1 attack or strenght!). (the minimun 7 inch distance from enemys if decide to use it that assault phase will act as a draw back... opps i'm withing 6 inches.... I CANT ASSAULT!??!?!)

* often fighting in dense terrain and thick urban lands, this shaper has directed his kindred into consuming <insert species> to give them fenominal leg power. With practice this allows kroot warriors to make long bounds into the air before engaging their enemys , crushing them with the sheer force of the attack*

so make it like a 5pt upgrade for shapers in carnivore kindreds ( or as a adaptation, likes 1-2pts per model)

buying shapers is pricey, but still rather fluffy. in tau the kroot are just warriors donated to the tau, not actual "illegal" warband kindreds that is more family/community. guessing that shapers are not always spared to the greater good.


All Kroot lose a point of Leadership (bad, bad, bad! But why should ours be better than theirs?) except for Shapers (which on the whole means that if you go on fielding shapers you won't have any problems whatsoever)



example: i'm a kroot, i got inducted by tau. although its a great honor i'm still not very motivated to fight for them (unless ma bud da shaper is with me:party:).

where as kroot in a warband are like die fighting for our bretheren.



the head hunter sounds like a bada$$ elite unit, then y the shitty kroot models with 4+ wound garbage? i like the rending idea:

*ancient and skilled warriors, this revered shaper has given up his role as council member to lead his kindred of elders. not many a foe has survived thier skilled onslaught, breaking through heavy defenses and crushing the toughest hides like it were second nature.*

a council shaper and some kroot with rending (feral leap aswell plz !) would make an interesting squad



cant think of anything else

If we were to propose the Feral Leap rule it would most definitively not be only a 5pts increase on shapers: an ability like that would seriously unbalance the unit having it: 18" infiltrate, 1d6" Blood of the Stalker, 6" assault + d6" Feral Leap means a semi-guaranteed first turn charge plus with an added boost to strenght and/or initiative.

Having something like this on our BASIC troopies means that we would have an elite army and not an underdog one as it's supposed to be.

What could be done is add a fast attack or elite unit with the possibility, but to what pro? We already have Hound Packs, Stalker Kindred and Vulture Kindred that can have the same effect (less the stat boost), so it would turn out to be overkill.

I would like to see:

Allied Kroot Shapers to be able to only use weapons from their employers and not be able to take the eviscerator, or melta or plasma unless you are fighting for an army that has them. For example, Kroot ally with Dark Eldar and the Shaper could get an Agoniser, punisher or get a blaster, etc.,

As for the All Kroot army - they would be allowed to get what is already listed in their codex (in other words, no change to what we got now).

My reasoning is simple, make the more diserable weapons (like the eviscerator) to be only available for an all-kroot list as a reward. Although I love my eviscerators when allying with my DE it somehow seems too much of an advantage.

Overall, I would just love to see them make them a full fledged army that is without a doubt "legal" to sport in tournaments and such.

I like the idea of allies specific wargear... maybe we could still different lists for the different armies.

And BTW, Kroot are official. Ok, we don't have a real codex, but they are useable in all the major tournaments (at least they are for the Italian GT).

I too fret that we will get no updates for the Mercs :| but perhaps they are going to be in a WD at a time - but I don't really think so. I would really like if some of the stuff from the Taros/Tauros (or whatever its name was) could be "officially" included in the Kroot Mercs.

But I think that the fan base is just to small for us to get an update, and especially now when they are upgrading to 5th edition - so the need to make new codexes for every core race and for the 10 kinds of Space Marines ( I know that it isn't that many but you get my point right?)

And like Lost Nemesis says there is a lot of core races who needs a nre codex - I'll say Orks a long with the Dark Eldars, as far as I remember both are still on 2nd edition codexes

And like Lost Nemesis says there is a lot of core races who needs a nre codex - I'll say Orks a long with the Dark Eldars, as far as I remember both are still on 2nd edition codexes

Orks are already getting their update, here in another month or so. :) So Dark Eldar should be the next to get updated, though we all know that won't happen.

Apologies for the topic derailment.

Updates won't happen if we just stay on our bums and whine! >_<

Methinks that if we send a nicely done revised codex, without any weird and unbalancing things and if they like it, they just have to spell-check it, set the layout and add the pics.

All we can do is try! :D

Orks are already getting their update, here in another month or so. :) So Dark Eldar should be the next to get updated, though we all know that won't happen.

Apologies for the topic derailment.
Hmm haven't heard that - but good that they are getting a new codex, but it will be a 4th edition I think.... so yes it is onlt Dark Eldars that needs a new codex then

I just had an interesting Idea. Games Workshop would probably be hard to contact in order to get the update. IMO the best people to message would be Forgeworld! They have made all the latest Kroot rules and extra models since the kroot came out. GW has not made a single extra one.

These boys might be the better option and more likely to get new rules :)

Eventhough that could be great it still won't make it legal since FW can't do that (I think)

but a new and updated chapter approved would be nice - one that includes the new units from Taros Campaign and hopefully some others as well

Why wouldent they be legal? They made the Elysians, The Elysian D99's, the Death Korps of Krieg,The Imperial Guard Chaos Renagades list, even a update to the Taleran Desert Raiders and a new chapter of space marines The Red Scorpians :)

All Fully legal army lists. Granted they are not always accepted at official GW events. But then again neither is the Kroot Merc army right now! However every tournament ive been to this year has allowed Forgeworld rules to be used so i dont see it being an issue (least not for me). To me it would be better than nothing.

The guy who wrote the first rules set for Kroot said he would be doing and update, that was way back in 2005. Still nothing as yet. Im just thinking that Forgeworld might be easyer to reach and talk to than the high and mighty members of Games workshop! :)

That is what I meant - FW armies are not always legal in tournyes but most often they are and I'm quite sure that most kroot mercs players is as much casual gamers as tourny-gamers

So I don't mind if FW decides to make it

well a lot of threads that Ive read are talking bout gw making it illegal and just taking it away for good. I wouldnt mind them making a new codex half as much as GW keeping them around.

I would really like them to make a new codex so that they include stuffs like gnarlock and so on

And include some of the newer weapons in their armory

What needs be done is have some good ideas written out and post them via snail-mail to GW-UK and keep our fingers crossed.

I was thinking of teking a hint from the kroot mercenary formation for Apocalypse, which includes vultures, head-hunters, stalkers, hunters, great knarloc packs and knarloc rider packs. It is missing hound packs (easily implemented), krootox packs (easily implemented, though quite useless... I'd rather leave them as add-ons to carnivore units) and punji traps (which I don't think anyone has ever used).

All I need is a bit of time off work and I'll get down to it! =)

I wrote out a similar thing to adapt the current Kroot Merc list with the added rules from the datasheet when it first came out.

Here we go
First Remove Eaters of the Dead Speical Rule But Keep Release the hounds (gives the hounds a little more flavor)


HQ
Master Shaper
Points cost + 30
Equipment: Add Witchblade
Special rules: Add Fearless (also effects to any squad he joins) and Psyker

Head Hunters
Should now read:
Evolutionary Adaptations: Having Fed upon the most Dangerous Creatures all close combat attacks made by Headhunters count as poisoned weapons that wound on a 4+

The entire squad may receive the hyperactive nymune organ adaptation at +2 points per member. This allows them to use the Fleet of Foot rules. All squad members must receive the adaptation.

Stalker Kindred
Should Now Read:
Evolutionary Adaptations: The kindred has concentrated on hunting forest dwellers, and gained an expertise in wooded environments far in excess of their already prodigious fieldcraft. The Unit benefits from Move Through Cover, Night vision/Acute sense and Stealth Universal Special rules.

Vulture Kindred
Should now Read:
Evolutionary Adaptations: These Kroot have evolved small but functional wings that allow them to glide short distances. The squad moves as if equipped with jump packs, with the exception that they do not test for accidents when moving through woods or jungles. The Squad also benefits from the Hit & Run universal Special rule.


Drop out the Hound and Kroot Ox squads from Heavy suport and Fast attack as you can make them from the Troop choice Kindred squads (Duplicated from the Tau Empire Codex).

For Standard Kindred squads allow them to take the hyperactive nymune organ, aka Fleet (without Krootox of course) allow them to take it for +2 points.

Kroot Hound Stats and points cost changed to the Tau Empire Stats.
Kroot Ox Stats and points cost changed to the Tau Empire Stats.

The only thing that really needs changing is allow the Kroot Trackers from IA3 into the rules (with a slight points reduction since they are quite over costed imo) For the spare Fast attack Slot, And the Great Knarlocs from the Apoc Book 0-1 (limit the squad to 3 Max) for the Kroot Ox Slot. And then remove the Pits as you said.

Whats ya think? :D