Ok, so, I'm a fairly new fantasy player (at least, in this edition), and I'm really enjoying myself.
I've had some good games, and won a decent percent of them (yay!) except against pesky lizardmen (skinks are evil >[ ).

Anyway, I've been considering what to add to my army at 2000pts. I'm very happy with everything I've got in my 1,500pts list, but I think that at 2000 I'm gonna need something capable of dealing with big, scary units, like Inner Circle Knights.

I've got about 250pts spare, and my choices seem to boil down to:
5 Chosen Knights w/ Banner and Musician, or
3 Dragon Ogres w/ Great Weapons and Light Armour.

Now, both have pluses and minuses, which I think I've identified (knights have a way better save, more attacks, MoCU and the benefits of a command group, wheras the ogres have higher strength, higher unit strength, more wounds and cause fear), I'm just wondering if anyone has any preferences?

The rest of the army is fairly numerous (62 gor/ungor) and heavily magicky ( lord of tzeentch, hero of tzeentch, 2 level 2 shaman), with extra stuff (3 ogre ironguts, 3 minotaurs, 2x5 hounds, 5 marauder horsemen and 6 centigor).

Cheers guys =)

-t.

I'd buy the knights, and maybe raise their number to 6 or 7, to be sure that you maximise the number of close combat attacks available.
And since you play tzeentch i'd suggest a blasted standard, to make them more durable against cannonballs/fanatics and the like.
One other possibility is to lead your army with an undivided general and then go for khorne knights (non-chosen) and maybe field two units of 6.

Generally, dragon ogres are one of the worst troops in the whole game, when you consider cost/effectiveness; obviously, this does not mean that they are useless, but just that there could be something better (like knights, LOL)

Just one question: how can you field 1 lord and 3 heroes @ 1500 pts?
Are you playing alternate rules or is that a proposal for the 2000 pts?

Bye! ;Y

The list of stuff is what my 2000pts list has, aside from the Knights/Dragon Ogres.
I am very limited on points however, and can't get more than 5 knights from 250pts, unless you can suggest dropping something, and I'm pretty happy with the rest of my list.

Why do you say Dragon Ogres are one of the worst units in the game?
Decent move, good strength, good wounds, fairly good save... I agree they are very expensive, but for roughly the same points (the Dragon Ogres are 20-odd points cheaper) I get 7 more wounds from the Dragon Ogres.

I am of course a newbie, and haven't used either unit in game, but I am interested to hear opinions.

-t.

Ok thanks for the clarification, i agree on your setup for heroes ;Y

About the dragonogres...my main concerns are
- they have WS4, that means they could hit on 4s and not 3s
- thay have 4+ As

And on the other side, knights have
- horses
- standards
- 1+ armour

So let's look at a fight between 25 swordsmen and 3DO/5CK as you equipped them.

+DO vs. Swordsmen+

9 attacks @ 4+ to hit
4-5 hits @ 2+ to wound
4 wounds @ -4 to save
= 4 casualties

in return

2 attacks @ 4+ to hit
1 hit @ 6+ to wound
0.3 wounds that become 0 after As

so the DO are losing cc by 4 (wounds) to 5 (static = 3 ranks, weight, standard)

*CK vs. Swordsmen*

10 attacks @ 3+ to hit
6-7 hits @ 2+ to wound
5-6 wounds @ -2 to save
=5 casualties

5 horse attacks @ 4+ to hit
2-3 hits @ 3+ to wound
1-2 wounds @ -1 to save
=1 casualty

in return

2 attacks @ 4+ to hit
1 hit @ 6+ to wound
0.3 wounds that become 0 after As

so the CK are winning cc by 7 (6 wounds, standard) to 5 (static)

-----------------

+Swordsmen vs. DO+

6 attacks @ 4+ to hit
3 hits @ 5+ to wound
1 wound
= 0.5 casualties

in return

9 attacks @ 4+ to hit
4-5 hits @ 2+ to wound
4 wounds @ -4 to save
= 4 casualties

so the DO are losing cc by 4 to 5.5

*Swordsmen vs. CK*

6 attacks @ 4+ to hit
3 hits @ 5+ to wound
1 wound
= 0.16 casualties

in return

10 attacks @ 3+ to hit
6-7 hits @ 2+ to wound
5-6 wounds @ -2 to save
=5 casualties

5 horse attacks @ 4+ to hit
2-3 hits @ 3+ to wound
1-2 wounds @ -1 to save
=1 casualty

so the CK are winning cc by 7 to 5.2

-------------------------------

In this brief statistic i overlooked the fear rule, because the enemy is going to win by static resolution, so it does not matter.
And one other thing is that you could put a hero inside the knight unit, to make it a true meatgrinder!

If we consider heavier units, though, the difference between S5-7 and As 4+-1+ is huge, and at that point i consider the knigths more versatile since they are really durable and still do a -2 to As.

One other thought is that firearms are going to hurt DO badly (eg a handgun does 4+ to wound and -2 to As) while CK can survive much longer.
And then cannonballs/bolts kill less points when aimed at knights.

I hope this spare comments can further convince you 8Y

Bye!

he maybe hasn't used dragon ogres. They are a very good unit. They are a little pricey for their stats, but they are still a very good unit, for the reasons you mentioned. Good movement, good save, lots of wounds, str 7 (kills even the best tin cans, and blows up things like chariots and war alters)

Chaos knights are good too, they can't fly under the radar like dragon ogres can sometimes. You put down chaos knights chosen and everyone and their mother will target them (which is good and bad) They only have 1 wound, so smallarms shooting can take them out if you roll as many 1's as I do for armor saves.

to hollow man - WS 4 depends on who he's playing. Not all basic troops are WS4, in fact not counting elves, most are WS 2-3, so a lot of times, they will be hitting on 3's. Fear, should always be taken into consideration, because 1 it's not usually smart to take on a fully ranked unit with cavalry or monster units, but if done, the fear is extremely helpful. The enemy has a good chance of failing a fear test and hitting you on 6's, or if you play smartly, you'll hit the flank and wear the unit down til it is outnumbered, or hit smaller units like knights and the fear and outnumber will work to your advantage.

Of the two id say go fot the Knights. Use 6, or possibly 5 with a Character. Definitely consider making them chosen too, with Champ, Music, and a Standard if you want a magic banner.

Also id look at boosting the Ogre and Mino units to 4 strong each, makes a big difference imo.

I dont agree with Dragon Ogres being onr of the worst units in the game. Infact they are actually pretty good. Just a little expensive maybe but that is reflected in their ststline.

Don't forget the fear factor.

A failed check could easily have an elite unit hitting you on 6's.

Units like Dragon Ogres are not intended to be unsupported.

I would skip the knights and DO's and get some more minotaurs!

Minotaurs are really cost-effective - especially in a undivided army like mine.

I run 3 groups of 4 minotaurs, which is quite fearsome, considering that the minotaurs nearly always beat the static +5 combat bonus of ordinary troops on the charge. Because of the relatively high unit strength, there is also a good chance that the minotaurs can autobreak units.

Talking about lizardmen, there is NOTHING the minotaurs are better at than beating saurus warriors, so just make sure to get the minotaurs into combat in full health and his infantry will be dead meat.

When you compare DO's to minotaurs, there isnt really much to justify the nearly double cost per model. They have +1 move, +1 strength, +1 wound and a somewhat useful armour save. On the other hand, the minotaurs can be marked, or have the undivided mark for free, which is excellent!

I know that chaos knights are powerful, but one chosen chaos knight costs around the same as one minotaur! When beefed up, a unit of chaos knights easely costs 300 points, while a unit of 4 minotaurs cost around 190 and generelly produce more havoc. If you use the chaos knights the right way however they can dominate a battlefield. Its just alot of points to have in 5-7 wounds it the enemy has attacks that negate armour saves.

If you really want something else than minotaurs, I would option for the knights. The DO's are simply not cost effective enough. I always thought that they should have been made with 4 attacks per model instead of 3. Then they would have been worth it.

Most has already been said, so I'll just add a bit regarding casualties:

True, Dragon Ogres have way worse armour saves than Chaos Knights (although, they'll be one of the best saves you gonna have in a Beastmen army), but it takes four succesful wounds to take out a Dragon Ogre, whilst a Knight will drop dead after just one.
So three unsaved wounds in a Dragon ogres unit won't even remove a model (provided no preceding wounds, of course), whereas 3 unsaved Wounds in a Chaos Knight unit is likely to rend them nearly useless.
As a nice bonus, you could risk to expose your flank to an enemy bolt thrower with the Dragon Ogres (since the d3 damage can't take out a 4 wounds model, the bolt won't be able to penetrate :party2: ) which gives better manoeuvrability.
A bit risky I admit, but Beasts are usually units with low protection anyways :D

This is truly a case where you have to look at your current army list to see what coordinates best.

Care to give us the whole list? That would make the analysis easier.

As I see it, based on what I know about your list, the dragon ogres are clearly better. The reason is simply that you have large blocks of troops and the ogres play a better support role as well as a better role in subsequent rounds of combat.

They do not take on fully blocked units by themselves, but then again, you have plenty of additional support in your list.

OK, fair points all round.
I've just finished converting up my 5 knight-gor, so I'm gonna try them out in a game or two and see how they go.

My list is up *here* (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1072431#post1072431), I would appreciate any comments and helpful advice =)

-t.