I've grown to love the look of Protectorate models and their mutually supporting / sacrificial nature favors my natural playstyle. I pointed up a list with my favorite-looking 'caster. Any Menites out there with opinions are sought, because I have little-to-no idea what I'm doing. (except increasing the activity in the PP section.)

Severius (Snape)
- Revenger
- Redeemer
- Guardian
Vilmon
Choir (x6)
Zealots (x10) + Monolith
Wrack

As far as I can tell, it's got good model count, good beatdown, decent buffing, decent range. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

+1 and hopefully getting more attention to your post. I honestly wish I could help with suggestions or comments as to what to look for/try/avoid, but we only have 1 menoth player in our area, and he's been in japan for most of the year since I started playing, so I'm ZERO good to you. Sorry.

About the only things I can comment on are th choir and vilmon, both of which are solid choices, although you may find better luck with a paladin or two to keep his back. Just a thought.

Haha. "Let's have a really loud conversation about how cool Privateer games are so that someone will stumble in to this section and get into WM/Hordes!!"

I built this list inexperiencedly. Fortunately, PP games' forgiving nature doesn't punish poor list composition. (Do you hear that, people who are tired of playing Listhammer 40k?!)

The Redeemer and the Choir are the only two 'must-have' Menoth units in this list.

The Guardian was selected because I like Heavy 'jacks and he's got an Arc Node to boot, which only helps Severius.

The Revenger was chosen as another 'jack. (I'm not into InfantryMachine.)

Vilmon was taken because he's basically a Heavy 'jack in and of himself, so he balances to Guardian.

A full unit of Zealots with a Monolith is pretty cheap, pointswise and is just a step below 'must-have' status.

The Wrack fills up points...and let's my opponent know I'm not messing around. ;)

I'm going to bum my FLGS' Menoth army and demo this on Thursday. Hopefully, it flies.

I think it looks like a nice list with a cool selection of models and some nice synergies. Blessing of Menoth and Eye of Menoth combined with the 'Jack-enhancing abilities of the Choir makes for some 'jacks that can hit nearly anything short of Cain or Morghul, and even they are not completely safe!

The Redeemer is an awesome 'jack. Rockets FTW! You have two 'Nodes as well, which is very good with Sevy.

And,
Severius (Snape)

lol

Indeed, Morghoul scares the wee-wee out of me. I normally use Doomshaper when I play Trollbloods and he's another frail Warlock (just like Severius) that Morghoul jumps on and tears to shreds.

I've never been able to beat a Morghoul list.

Well he is real squishy when you do actually hit him... It is that hitting-part that is the problem. :P
And Anatomical Prescision + 2 attacks per fury is love. I have found him a pretty hard warlock to play though, although I don't have to much experience with Skorne.

I love the Skorne. I love their backstory and their "Learning and growing is what the weak refer to as pain and suffering" philosophy. Their models, by and large, are also amazing...except for their heads. Their heads look terrible.

Each of those super-cool cataphracts has a head that looks like a small piece of bubble-gum.

I think it was a joke on the part of the designers, "Hey, do you think it would be funny if we made the most hardcore, badass race in the game pink and hairless?"

Actually, yeah--it does look like a good list. Certainly it's got most of the important parts: a Revenger for Severius, Choir, Monolith Bearer and full Zealots (which is basically mandatory).

I'd like to see a Devout, maybe in place of the Redeemer (which, if I'm not mistaken, may well give you enough points for a Paladin of the Wall to accompany Vilmon)

Also, while I like the Guardian well enough, you kinda pay a lot for a heavy with an arc node. You already have one, and while a second one is nice, I might consider going for a better heavy, instead. Maybe a reckoner. Those are pretty cool.

Either way, though, it's a good list.

You make good points, LoW. A Devout would be good to help protect Old Man Severius and still make for aggressive play. That would allow for a Paladin of the Wall as well, which would be perfect for DArtan Vilmon.

I do like Rockets, though. choices...

I don't want to say I'm married to Heavy 'jacks or anything, but I do like 'em a lot. Plus, the move from Infantrymachine has to start with the players, right? The Reckoner is very cool, but the Guardian has the Arc Node in its favor and the Reckoner's reliance on a Choir of its own...and I don't have the points or the money to spend on another Choir.

Severius Snape
- Revenger
- Devout
- Guardian
Choir (x6)
Zealots (x10)
- Monolith Bearer
Dartan Vilmon
Paladin of the Wall
Wrack

The Paladin of the Wall is a beautiful model...

Yeah, it's hard not to like the Guardian. I'd give it a couple of tries and see how it goes.

I also like the Redeemer (especially with Kreoss, where it forms one of the better caster-killer-combos in the game) but those Devouts are gold. And huge cheaters. Big whopping piles of pure shiny awesome gold cheatiness, in fact.

Seriously. I don't think I'd ever leave home without one. ;)

Paladins have some exceptional style, but their primary ability--Brick and Mortar stance--is so gimpy that it was hard to really like them for a long time. With Vilmon and his unique brand of crazy hacks, they've become a lot better, and I enjoy seeing them get more play.

I'd give this list a shot, but consider things that might replace that guardian. I'll bet, if you drop it and the wrack, you'd about fit six knights exemplar and another Devout--and that would be a really good list.

(sorry that I don't have these point costs all memorized. I really used to, but I'm just not sure, at this point. I think the Guardian is 126, the KE are 69 and the Devout is 61. The Wrack should be 5, which would make the trade 131 points for 130, if I'm not mistaken.)

I have read that Vilmon has made the Paladins much more palatabl, to the point where oftentimes players will take two of them for Vilmon. (There are no Protectorate players in my area, so I've never seen any of these units in action.)

How are Devouts 'cheaters'? I don't mean that literally, but I take it they work in practice a lot better than they do on the card?

I can see this list as being really easy to expand to 750. There's just so much great stuff in the Menite list that works with everything else. (Vilmon with two Paladins, Knights Exemplar with a Seneschal, etc etc)

You really don't think they look good in text?

When that 'jack came out, my first thought was, "holy cr@p, now those Menoth casters will actually be impossible to assassinate." Every experience with them since then has done little but verify that initial impression.

What I didn't realize, at first, is that not only are they a very effective body-guard for your caster, they're actually pretty serious beat-sticks as well. When you consider the fact that they're just about the cheapest light 'jack in the game (barring bonejacks, which really aren't in the same catagory) it's difficult to fail to come to the conclusion that these are unbalanced--and heavily in the Protectorate's favour.

Let's recap their abilities:

First, they jump in front of ranged attacks which are aimed at your caster. This is big--usually there are only going to be one or two shots going into your caster. Stopping a Disruptor Bolt or a 10-man CRA from long gunners is often quite literally the difference between life and death for your caster--and subsequent victory or defeat for you.

In addition, when your caster is being threatened by death from ranged attacks, they're usually coming from the same direction. As often as not, the free movement that the Devout gets when jumping in front of shots is enough to not only block the first shot, but any successive shots as well. Combined with the fact that the Devout itself can't be targeted by ranged attacks (thanks, Choir!) even a single Devout leaves you virtually immune to the ranged caster-assassination.

Of course, compared to what it does to spell-oriented assassination rushes, its defense against ranged attacks seems piddly. It completely stops spell-based kills against your caster. Completely. One focus (which Severius has to spare) leaves your caster unable to be targeted by spells.

--Actually, wait. Isn't Severius untargetable anyway? He might be, in which case, for this instance, this ability isn't all that impressive.--

For other casters, though, it's golden. Talk about a hoser, this one ability, for a very moderate price, eliminates the primary win condition for the majority of Cryx armies.

Also, remember that, if you're against such an army, the Devout is also immune to spells (thanks, again, Choir!) meaning that you can't even reliably spell the Devout to death and then go to the caster. You've got to get the Choir (all the way in the back) then the Devout, and finally the caster. That's ridiculous, frankly, and a massive nerf to an entire class of armies.

Finally there's melee. You might think, well, at least you can always run up and pound the Caster--or the Devout--into the dirt. You can, but the Devout even makes this, the most simple, straightforward, and ostensibly difficult to prevent of approaches far, far harder than it seems like it ought to be. Defensive Strike--that mother of all reactive abilities--is a beast. It triggers after an enemy model moves to threaten the Devout (or, with reasonably careful placement of the Devout, the Caster) but before the model gets to attack. If it hits (which it usually will, with a +2 bonus) it puts out a massive chunk of damage (power 13 boosted) which is enough to kill normal infantry, even some of the multiple-hit-point infantry, and can even threaten weapon systems on 'jacks. If it kills the charging model, it's really done it's job (it might, and it might not--it really depends on what's charging) but even if it doesn't kill the charging model, it still knocks that model with a -2 on all attack rolls for the rest of the turn. With the relatively high defense that virtually all casters sport, this penalty alone is often enough to spell doom for any melee assassination attempt.

Oh, and what about its combat ability? Well, once again the Devout has the Choir, taking it to a respectable 7 MAT and 15 P+S. It's speed six, has good defense and good armour (after that shield) and, get this:

It gets its Defensive Strike even against models which it engages and which stand still to hit it back. So, if I run my Devout into your Redeemer, after I beat it around a little and end my turn, my Devout will get another attack against your Redeemer--with +2 to hit and boosted damage--before your Redeemer even gets a chance to swing at my Devout.

The Devout does its job better than anyone could ask, making spell-based assassinations virtually impossible, ranged assassinations extremely difficult, and even reducing the effectivenss of melee assassination runs significantly. It's tough and powerful enough with its stats and weapons alone to almost justify its amazingly low cost, and its abilities are almost certainly the best of any light 'jack in the game.

Needless to say, I'm a fan of the Devout. ;)

I'm not really as familiar with Vilmon--he came out as I was starting to lose interest in the game--but I do know that he, himself, is quite a good model, and my understanding is that the ability he uses to buff the performance of Paladins (Cornerstone, right? I'm not certain what it does...) makes them pretty worthwhile. My memory (and suspicion) is that it can be done after moving, which was the serious flaw of Stone and Mortar stance. If Stone and Mortar could be done after moving, it'd be a great ability. As it is, it's very nearly worthless. What a shame...


And, yes. I'm sure that you would have no trouble expanding it to 750. Severius isn't really considered one of the 'power' casters for Menoth, but I've always liked him. I usually played with Feora or Kreoss--occasionally the Harbinger (who is undeniably stylish and powerful) but Severius comes with some intrinsic advantages for large games. Eye of Menoth scales well to larger games (it continues to affect just about your whole army, no matter how large your army gets) and he has enough focus to run quite a few 'jacks if necessary.

Wow, a fan of the Devout indeed. I almost want to run out and buy one right now...after painting fifteen Trolls. I had honestly pegged the Devout as being similar to the Troll Bouncer. After a more careful reading, and with your explanation, I see the similarity is just superficial.

For fun, I expanded the list to 750, but this is more theoretical than anything. It's a lot of stuff to buy, a ton of stuff to paint...and I still prefer Hordes. (More accurately, I prefer Trollbloods.)

Snape
- Redeemer
- Revenger
- Devout
- Guardian
Choir x6
Choir x6
Zealots x10
- Monolith Bearer
D'Artagnan Vilmon
- Paladin of the Wall
- Paladin of the Wall
Knights Exemplar x6
- Seneschal
Wrack

If I may ask, what caused you to lose interest in WM/Hordes? What do you play now? Getting the negatives of anything new (new to me) is always nice, so I know what I'm getting into.

Yeah, actually, I like that 750 list a lot. A good mix of 'jacks, two choir, zealots, and a bunch of heavy hitting infantry and solos. Thumbs up. =)

Funny, I couldn't come up with a Cygnaran or Khadoran list I really liked no matter how hard I tried.
I didn't even look at Cryx. Hideous models.

Off the top of your head, do you know if Menoth is the Hordes-analogue to Skorne, in terms of play-style? (i.e. Cryx and Everblight)

There actually aren't very good analogues betwen Hordes and Warmachine factions, I don't think, but if you were to force some, Menoth and Skorne would probaby be the closest, yeah.

For Cygnar, I'd suggest:

Haley
-Centurion
-Lancer
-Lancer
Trenchers (6)
Trenchers (6)
Long gunners (8)
Long gunners (8)
Journeyman
GMCA
Eiryss

Ccmes in at 743


For Khador, I'd suggest:

Vlad
-Behemoth
Drakhun
Demo Corps (5)
Demo Corps (5)
Uhulans (5)
Kovnik
Kovnik
Widowmakers

That comes in at 742

I also pretty much can't stand the Cryx model line.

I don't mean to be a thread necromancer, plus, this is still only about a month old, but I have what I think is a valid question:

Can Severius, even with his high Focus stat, service four 'Jacks, even with the Reclaimer and Wrack?

Severius with
- Redeemer
- Revenger
- Devout
- Guardian

They're all good, strong machines, but would controlling them make for dramatically fewer Ashes-to-Ashes?

Would that Redeemer be better off as a bunch of Deliverers? (Death Sentence + Rockets. :))

The Guardian is expensive, but it's a good strong 'Jack and it's an Arc Node to boot.

I don't think that many would be a problem. The Devout and Revenger are cheap to run, only requiring big loads of focus on very rare occasions. The Guardian takes three focus more, since it should be seeing more actual combat, but it's a good use of focus.

The Redeemer is probably the biggest hog, putting three focus to use pretty well just about every turn.

But, ultimately, Severius has a lot of focus. With wracks, he has a lot. He can afford to hand it out to 'jacks, and 'jacks tend to use it about as well as he himself does. He does a few things--Ashes to Ashes and Death Sentence are certainly niec--but the only things he's really doing every turn are Upkeeping Eye of Menoth and...guidance? Doesn't he have an upkeep buff spell of some sort? And running 'jacks. And maybe casting Holy Vigil or whatever that spell is. That's sort of a focus-hog, too, cause you can never upkeep it.

Still, I wouldn't worry too much.

I like the Redeemer over deliverers, too. AoE's are a lot more potent when you can boost damage rolls. Deliverers will too routinely fail to do anything to important targets.

That's good to hear. At 750, where I have those four 'Jacks, I have a Wrack and a Reclaimer. If most of my 'Jacks don't really need a lot of focus and I have other sources, I figure I should be OK.

You can always squeeze in another Wrack... They are so darn cheap! :)

An important thing to remember in larger games--and especially games with that many 'jacks--is that you'll want two choir. You'll want one choir to give some of your 'jacks a defensive buff and another choir to give your other 'jacks Infuse.

For example, you'll really want that Redeemer to be Infused pretty much every turn it shoots. The difference between Strength 7 and Strength 9 is pretty significant when killing infantry.