I hear that a lot. They are gamer friendly. T helocal gaming stores LOVES privateer press and warmachine and not just one or two, but pretty much all of them. They host free tournaments and they love privateer press. They keep on telling me how they are a great company and they really have the gamer in mind. I don't quite think I get that. I have had some experience playing 40k. I know people that HATE games workshop because of the very opposite reason. So I ask you guys, what am I missing here because I don't notice a whole lot of difference. I am not trolling. I actually am interested because I get the feeling I missing some insight having only started Warmachine a week or so ago.

Well, some points of comparison between the two:

1.) Privateer provides tournament prize support to just about any local store. It costs the store a little money (the gold Champion cards don't, but the coins and such do), but it's a cool thing for them to do.

On the other hand, Games Workshop will provide 150 bucks worth of product as prize support to any Games Workshop store or store which orders from GW directly--and it's free to the store.

Overall, it's great that they both have a support system for local tournaments. GW's support is nicer, though, overall--and its completely free.

2.) Privateer maintains a public forum. On that forum they make announcements, (occasionally) respond to the concerns of specific customers, and have an official rules forum where you can get answers in a fairly timely fashion for (most) rules-related questions.

Gw, on the other hand, has a handful of poorly maintained FAQs available from their website.

Privateer really wins on this catagory.

On the other hand, it'd be nice if they kept their Errata Document more up-to-date. PPS_Kevin is perfectly capable of making a game-altering ruling on the forums, but that ruling won't necessarily be published anywhere except in the thread in which he made it. They'll add it to the E&C document eventually, but, in the meantime, you've got an official ruling, which changes how everyone is supposed to be playing the game, which is only accessible if you happened to notice it on the forums when it was made.

3.) Privateer runs tournaments personally. At Gencon, if you play in Warmachine or Hordes events, odds are that it will be run by Jason Soles himself.

GW, on the other hand, I just don't know about. My impression is that actual games-workshop stores do run a lot of GW sponsored events. I don't have a GW store within a hundred miles, so I can't speak to the quality or quantity of such events.

I can't really speak to this, either. Certainly Privateer doesn't sponsor a whole lot of events on a local scale. Their personal involvement at larger events and cons is nice. On the other hand, Soles is basically a lush (and I mean that in the nicest way possible--he really is a good guy) and doesn't really have any business running anything after two solid days of dedicated alcohol consumption. It's nice to see he cares about the players enough to show up to events himself, but it'd be nicer if he cared enough to make sure to be competent when he does so.

All in all, I think it is an error to say that Privateer cares more about gamers. They do care about gamers, but Games Workshop really does care about gamers, too. Privateer does provide a lot of support to their community, but, really, it probably isn't as much support as GW provides, on the whole.

They're both pretty good companies, honestly, and I've really come to the conclusion, at this point, that Privateer afficcionados adopt the "Privateer loves gamers" line more because they've become disgruntled with Games Workshop over the years than because Privateer actually has that much more going for it.

Privateer really came out of the gate with a sales pitch of, "At least we're not Games Workshop," and it worked well for them. A lot of people saw them as a bright new star in a gaming industry that seemed to be ruthlessly dominated by GW--and GW does manage routinely manage to alienate portions of its customer base. These folks were easy for Privateer to rebound, and so a lot of their core contingent has a love of Privateer which is based as much on a dislike of Games Workshop as on any actual good qualities of Privateer.

I suspect that, sooner or later, this basically naive idealism will fade and people will realize that Privateer's out there to make money, too, just like GW is. It's not really an inherently better company at all, and I think it is simply an error to say that they care more about the gamer. Both companies care about gamers.

I like to think it's the newness of PP that gets them more of a positive reaction. The one shop that doesn't carry GW stuff around here raves about PP, and the owner has stated that "GW wants to put all independent stores out of business", but I think he's a bit of a nutter. On the other hand, the rest of the stores around here seem to have a decent relationship with both. There's a bigger GW base here, so I tend towards the GW products.

Tekore

The one shop that doesn't carry GW stuff around here raves about PP, and the owner has stated that "GW wants to put all independent stores out of business", but I think he's a bit of a nutter.
GW actually has done somethings like this. The Rogue Trader that I have always gone to had a background story like this:

The hobby shop starting out and they decided to carry GW stuff. GW helped them out a lot, and set them up with materials for gamers getting started. Once the GW fanbase was made, they opened up a GW run shop down the street ;?

The store managed to stay alive because they carried other product than GW's, and eventually the GW store moved downtown (about 20-30 min away from the store). Now, I don't mind GW being a business and all, but that's kinda pushing it IMHO.

Privateer Press doesn't love gamers any more than GW does.

What Privateer Press doesn't do is hate FLGS's. GW would much rather control their product flow all the way from the sculptor's greens to the gamer's paint-stained hands. They figure they're large enough and their fanbase deep enough to pull such a stunt off. Hence, the GW brick-and-mortar stores.

Privateer is, I am told by the owners of my FLGS, much nicer to work with and more responsive to individual stores' needs.

Everyone loves the gamer, particularly the money in his pocket.

My local store doesn't really work directly with Privateer at all, except for ordering prize support. They get all their PP stuff through...Blackhawk, I think, or ACD. Games Workshop, on the other hand, ships directly to the store, which I think they generally prefer.

I don't think our game store would agree with the assertion that Privateer is easier to work with than GW at all, really. In fact, we have a very active, friendly, and helpful GW rep who is accessible, easy to work with, and even visits our store and shows up at our tourneys, on occasion. We have no one like that from Privateer.

The closest we get to that is the Press Ganger, but Press Gangers are sort of a far cry from an actual employee and company representative.

Privateer Press doesn't love gamers any more than GW does.

What Privateer Press doesn't do is hate FLGS's. GW would much rather control their product flow all the way from the sculptor's greens to the gamer's paint-stained hands. They figure they're large enough and their fanbase deep enough to pull such a stunt off. Hence, the GW brick-and-mortar stores.

Privateer is, I am told by the owners of my FLGS, much nicer to work with and more responsive to individual stores' needs.

Everyone loves the gamer, particularly the money in his pocket.

FLG = ?

Being relatively new to 40k, and now eyeing Warmachine/Hordes, I have to admit to seeing many advantages PP has over GW, including but not limited to smaller games (translation: cheaper army building!) and higher quality models (I've never heard mold line complaints from any PP gamer. Ever.), but it's been said that GW was once like this too, back when it was the size that PP is now. If PP grows, does this mean it and its games will start to resemble GW more, and acquire the same "bad rep" GW has? I hope not.

FLGS = Friendly Local Game Store. ;)

Also, let me be the first to ruin your 'no mold lines' streak. Privateer minis have mold lines and flash just like every other mini does. They're not terrible (nothing like Mongoose) but they're not exactly pissing milk and honey, either.

Personally, the metal minis are one of the things that turned me off of Privateer games. It's not that they're low quality--they're actually very nice models and very nice sculpts. I just hate working with metal. I started with Battletech and Warmachine minis, and when I finally started playing 40k and Fantasy, the joy of working with plastic over metal really won me over.

I'm going to agree with LoW, here. While the quality of the PP sculpt is excellent, the actual production is pretty average. I spend as much time with a jeweler's file and inhaling white metal dust on any given PP figure as I do on a metal GW figure.

GW's plastic, though, is tremendous. Two passes with a heavy-gauge surgical scalpel zips any mold line off a plastic piece. (Also, plastic is lighter and less fragile.) A metal piece has a nice, satisfying heft to it, but that's about it.

Of course, plastic figure production is also fearfully expensive, so no one but GW can do it.

It's entirely possible that, should PP grow to be GW's size that they start behaving like they do. The question, then, is "What is GW doing that's so bad?" They're a business, after all, and as such, they exist to juice their customers. They raise prices, we keep buying. Someday they'll hit a price limit and we'll stop buying.

(I know I've actually stopped buying. Even if I were so inclined to start another GW army...like the Imperial Guard, for example, I would buy someone else's eBay'ed army.)

Thinking about it, if anyone really loves gamers, it's Specialist Games. Even though, they're basically a subsidiary of GW, they're independent (i.e. unsupported) enough to where they get to do their own thing. I can't think of any game company that involves the players as much in the continuing development of the games.

(FLGS = Danger Planet in Waltham, Mass. Younger crowd, but generally good people.)

Also, let me be the first to ruin your 'no mold lines' streak. Privateer minis have mold lines and flash just like every other mini does. They're not terrible (nothing like Mongoose) but they're not exactly pissing milk and honey, either.

Personally, the metal minis are one of the things that turned me off of Privateer games. It's not that they're low quality--they're actually very nice models and very nice sculpts. I just hate working with metal. I started with Battletech and Warmachine minis, and when I finally started playing 40k and Fantasy, the joy of working with plastic over metal really won me over.

Bah, that's a shame about the poor production, and the all-metal aspect was what turned me off to PP in the first place. Course now I'm seriously considering building a Cygnar or Circle army. Hmmm...



(FLGS = Danger Planet in Waltham, Mass. Younger crowd, but generally good people.)

I know it well. My Necrons debuted there, and got beaten in a fairly close game against Tau/Kroot.

Don't let my pessimism infect you too much, Canew--I'm really not trying to turn you off the game.

Privateer's production isn't poor; it just isn't perfect, either.

Every metal model is going to have mold lines and flash--that's just how it works. Privateer's do, too.

All in all, Privateer's models are actually of a quite high quality, as far as metal models go.

I still say that it's far easier and more enjoyable to work with plastic over metal, but, as Quick said, producing metal models involves a much lower start-up cost than producing plastic models. Putting up with the hastles that metal models cause is just part of the hobby.

I certainly am not telling you not to play the game. It can be a lot of fun and a worthwhile experience. I just have a particular dislike for the rampant idealism which the game's adoring masses routinely regurgitate. It's well worth taking a shot for yourself, though, and seeing if you like it.

Perhaps your position would be more understandable if we knew why you stopped playing Warmachine? You're certainly experienced in the game and one of the more active individuals in this section of the site.

Was it something fundamental to the game's mechanic or just simply a matter of wanting to move on and try something new?

Maybe I was unclear: I've never played Warmachine. When I said I was "turned off," I meant when I first started reading about it, looking at the model range, etc.

In fact, the opposite is happening now. The idea that the game uses fewer models, which makes building a competitive army faster and cheaper, coupled with the "cool" factor (warjacks FTW!) is making me give them another look.

Course, I'll never give up on my marines and necrons, and I still wanna build an IG army someday, and... and... and...

*listens to wallet shrieking in protest*

I started to write a huge response to that, Quick, detailing the things I no longer like about Privateer Press, but it wouldn't really be appropriate here. I think I've gotten across the part of my message that's relavent to this thread. I'm going to go ahead and write this up, but I'm going to find a different way to publish it. I'll let you know when my cumulative rant is finished, if you're interested. ;)

As for you, Canew, I really do suggest you give it a shot. It is a game with a lot of strong points and the potential to be very fun. While it isn't exactly cheap to get into, it doesn't have to be all that expensive.

LoW: Now I'm more interested than before. Well done. ;)


I think it is a little cheaper to get into PP games than GW. Maybe it's just the way I play, but I generally write a list after playing a few proxy games, and that's the list I stick with. I probably lose a little more than I win because of it, but I still have fun and I never have to spend another dime. I really only suffer for a static list in 40k. All other games have enough tactical depth to where I can overcome my opponent knowing what I play.

Moreover, I only went up to 750 points with my Menites, because after 750 points, I don't have the mental capacity to keep up with all the effects, spells and rules...also, the games take three hours at that point and I don't have that kind of patience.

Maybe I've got ADD or something and--Hey! Who here likes to go skiing? :rofl

A couple of points to mention or emphasize.

1-PP's sculpts are usually of great detail. Fewer mold lines than most other companies, and they have some simply breathtaking figs. That said, I hope you know how to use green stuff. Their joint locations are haphazard at best, and the gaps in larger models are simply unbelievable. Oh, and they suck at scuplting faces, but ortunately they sculpt many models with hoods or scarves or other such face covers.

2-Getting into the game at the 500 point level is really very affordable. Building up to 1,000 points will break the bank as the price for cavalry is HUGE, and all the new releases are simply onscene with pricing (raek, the craziness that is the rhinodon).

3-PP does have better support about all aspects of their poducts from mismatched blisters to actually having PG that have experience in the game.

4-GW had a great systema dna very fun game that I will still play, I just don't enjoy investing in it as much anymore, as their rules get worse and worse, and the power creep is and everything else is going back to second edition.

In terms of support, I still say it's hard to beat the free product that GW ships out to locally run tournaments.

I'll also note that, basically, Press Gangers aren't really required to know any more about the game than Redshirts or Outriders. In fact, a significant number of the Press Ganger's I've known (and I've known several) are actually just about worthless when it comes to knowing the rules, giving good demos, or being any good at the game at all. (and I say this in the nicest way possible, since one of them is my fiance)

Their sculpts are very detailed and very full of gaps. Mold lines tend to vary, but I've never had any that were outstandingly bad. Most have been very managable.

I remember one model which was very nice (the Ghordson Driller) but which, when assembled, actually had a hole all the way through its torso from one side to another. It wasn't intentional, it was just a gap about the size of a peanut that went all the way through the sculpt.

As Tarzen says, Greenstuff is a must. Otherwise, the models are great. (Though I do often wish they were plastic ;)).

Anyway, I would still disagree that Privateer has better support. I haven't dealt with either company's customer support services much, but all of my experiences, with both companies, have been good. I had to get Privateer to send me an extra arm for a Morghul, and they did (and promptly). I've had a couple of pieces missing from GW blisters, both metal and plastic, and they always just ship me a whole new blister.

And, of course, there's that awesome prize support program, which Privateer really can't touch. ;)

I'll just chip something in for GW's support:

I've gotten shotty packaging, and sometimes un-manageable defects with some GW products (some examples would be a warped Carnifex, an Eldar army release box missing the falcon turret sprue and HQ, missing pieces in an old metal Termi box). Each time I called GW support, and each time I was sent new product, shipped to my home at no cost to myself. Now I'm not out to paint GW the saint, but they do have very good customer service when it comes to their product.

Just throwing it out there :rofl

I've had similar experiences with Forgeworld as well. Those guys will fall over themselves to correct any mistake they make.

Of course, PP hasn't made any mistakes with me yet. ;) Their later sculpts aren't even that greenstuff-intensive. Compare the later warbeasts to the earlier warjacks.

It would be awesome if the Jacks were plastic, though.

I live in a rather large city, 1million plus, and we don't get free stuff from GW for our RTTs. It's all paid out of pocket by the organizer. So that isn't a plus for GW. Both have support for their tourneys but GW's rules have been the exact same except for the 'ardboyz. 8 years and the same format, not exactly dynamic.

In almost $2k worth of PP I've only had one mixed card, they packed a carni card in a seraph box. No major flash. Some very inconvenient joints and glue spots. Many infantry with hideous faces (which I suppose would be fine if I played cryxx(the one faction with good faces, go figure)).

$6k of GW stuff has seen melted figs, missing limbs, poor melted plastic sprues, bad joints (less greenstuff though), Better faces, but an all around less enjoyable set of models. It's rather frustrating to look and see 100 models of the exact same pose on the board, or units of 10 with all the exact same look.

In the 14 years of 40k, they've fixed the rules 6 times. 2 edition changes, 2 new codex and 2 FAQs. Vs PP who can and will do it daily (not necesarilly a good thing, but it makes playing with strangers less of a bicker fest).

I don't think that GW has handled any of its customers concerns about the rules very well, and I find no end to the amusemnt of having all their literature published and leaked on the interweb before it comes out.

Price wise, as said, the two are honestly very similar these days, something that saddens me greatly.

All I can say, mate, is that either you have had some rotten luck of you just haven't been trying hard enough to get the GW services that are available.

I mean, melted figures? Why didn't you just send 'em back and get replacements? As far as I can tell, GW has always been willing to do this. It's irritating, perhaps, but it's a far cry from paying for something that isn't playable.

Also, I'll just bet that you could get prize support for your RTTs if you asked. I ran an event at GenCon and we had no problem getting prize support. We had to get our brick and mortar, GW-direct store to vouch for us, but everything went fine.

As far as quality of models goes, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, Privateer's models are very nice, and they provide a nice range of sculpts for units.

On the other hand, GW's current plastic models are amazingly high quality--and they're plastic. Having varied sculpts is nice, but getting lots of bits and pieces made from a material that's easy to work really results in far more opportunity for customization and unique figures.

Personally, I like having all my Marines have a uniform look and pose, but if you don't, they're almost too easy to switch around. As far as their metal ranges go, I have yet to see the squad of (GW) metal models which has significantly less variety in terms of poses than a Warmachine unit.

I mean, each Warmachine unit has about four. A leader, two poses for the basic guys and the 'third' sculpt. There are a few exceptions, but, basically, it's four poses per unit.

My Wood Elf Wardancers have...six? Eight? And they're all metal.

I mean, hell. There are four different sculpts in the Ultramarines Honour Guard (and that's not counting Marneus, who comes in the box, too--and is awesome!)

No, I think the 'more variety' card definitely fails as a point in Privateer's favour. Their models are certainly good, but they just have nothing over GW's models at all.

The one and only time I've dealt with GW support it was as if I'd stolen the mini, and they were coming for me. I did get my lictors missing leg replaced, but I won't deal wit htheir support again.

Have you bought a squad or marines? or genestealers, or gaunts or eldar or tau or necrons or pretty much anything that isn't a unit upgrade? They are all the EXACT same. It's enjoyable to have 50 marines look SIMILAR, but not the exact model, no less the 200+ marines I have, or 300+nids, or 400 or so eldar.

Yes, the character models of GW are nice, and they almost match the details on pretty much EVERY PP model. And yes, GW has plastics, which are wonderful for conversions, which is part of their tourney system.

Part of my particular enjoyment of PP is that painting ISN'T the end all be all of the hobby. I don't suffer in tourney's if my models aren't all based, or painted to a high standard. That said, i can paint, I'm a very clean painter, I just don't like highlighting and shading. I hate the fact that GW has made painting a HUGE part of it's tourney's, along with silly notions of "comp scores" (wow, let's not go there) and sportsmanship.

i've seen RTTs held where there was no area terrain on any of the 12 tabels, where missions are made willy nilly that punish builds (vehicles count for 2X victory points), winners given to painters who lost all 3 games (while others won all three with victorious slaughters), and winners given to regulars because they are friends with the organizers.

So yeah, I've had bad luck with tourneys. Particularly GW tourneys, where I've been robbed of first in four seperate games, despite having the best generalship and points.

As of yet, I haven't had that problem with PP's. So I'm a little biased. Have had some great pp events and some only okay ones.

Of course, your milage may vary=)

Cheers!

The one and only time I've dealt with GW support it was as if I'd stolen the mini, and they were coming for me. I did get my lictors missing leg replaced, but I won't deal wit htheir support again.

Have you bought a squad or marines? or genestealers, or gaunts or eldar or tau or necrons or pretty much anything that isn't a unit upgrade? They are all the EXACT same. It's enjoyable to have 50 marines look SIMILAR, but not the exact model, no less the 200+ marines I have, or 300+nids, or 400 or so eldar.


I can't speak for Eldar or Nids, but if you go and buy a box of marines, you will not get identical models. Maybe that's the way it used to be, but it is not any longer. You get six different poses of legs, four or five different poses of arms (just counting those in which the marine is holding the bolter with both hands) about five or six more arm poses that are for holding the bolter one-handed or for holding a sword, knife, or pistol. On top of this, you get a variety of heads, a variety of backpacks, a variety of chest-pieces, a bunch of purity seal and scroll bits, three special weapons, a missile launcher, some tabards, grenades, pistols, ammo packs, and I'm sure there's even more stuff that I've forgotten.

Maybe you're remembering old marine boxes with less variety--I don't know. What I do know is that now the Marine box is a veritable smorgasbord of options and variety. The new Chaos Marine box is even better. If you had trouble with your guys coming out looking identical...well, I don't know. I don't even think that's possible. I think you're just remembering wrong.


Yes, the character models of GW are nice, and they almost match the details on pretty much EVERY PP model. And yes, GW has plastics, which are wonderful for conversions, which is part of their tourney system.

Part of my particular enjoyment of PP is that painting ISN'T the end all be all of the hobby. I don't suffer in tourney's if my models aren't all based, or painted to a high standard. That said, i can paint, I'm a very clean painter, I just don't like highlighting and shading. I hate the fact that GW has made painting a HUGE part of it's tourney's, along with silly notions of "comp scores" (wow, let's not go there) and sportsmanship.


I definitely agree with you, here. The soft scores at GW tournaments really bother me, sometimes. Getting penalized 'cause I don't like painting (or being forced to restrict my choices to the models that I have painted if I want any hope of winning) is no fun.

And yes, let's not even get into the ridiculous nonsense that is comp and sportsmanship. They...seem like they're there for a reasonable purpose, but man are they a terrible idea.

You have a point, here. Most GW tournaments have bass-ackward scoring and format. Their mission-writing for such events is...iffy. To be fair, I don't really like Privateer's tournament scenarios much, either, but Privateer does still have the superiour format, overall.


i've seen RTTs held where there was no area terrain on any of the 12 tabels, where missions are made willy nilly that punish builds (vehicles count for 2X victory points), winners given to painters who lost all 3 games (while others won all three with victorious slaughters), and winners given to regulars because they are friends with the organizers.


Yeah, that's ridiculous. On the other hand, if they're not GW published missions you can't really blame GW for them. (Of course, GW's mission writing is far from superb)

Certainly, though, you can't blame GW for a lack of terrain--unless they were running the tournament. If they were, well, shame on them. I've never played at a GW run tournament in my entire life, and I'll bet I could live just fine without doing so. The tournaments we run around here have plenty of terrain. ;)


So yeah, I've had bad luck with tourneys. Particularly GW tourneys, where I've been robbed of first in four seperate games, despite having the best generalship and points.

As of yet, I haven't had that problem with PP's. So I'm a little biased. Have had some great pp events and some only okay ones.

Of course, your milage may vary=)

Cheers!

Fair. Your point about tournament quality is well taken. The vast, vast majority of tournaments in which I've played have either been organized and run locally, by myself, an immediate friend, or someone from the local game store (who are all basically friends as well).

I have played in some of Privateer run events, and, while I haven't been particularly impressed, I haven't exactly been disappointed either. They're fine. They don't seem (to me) like anything special, beyond the fact that they're very large (which is neat).

I'm much more concerned about what each company is willing to do for me, as a guy playing in (or running) tournaments out of a local, independant game retailer than the quality of the events that the companies run themselves.

GW will routinely ship me actual product as prize support. Privateer will provide gold cards (which are cool, but nothing compared to product) for free, but will make me pay for anything else--and basically won't provide even discounted product as prizes.

GW really offers me much better support. The LGS can run tournaments without cover charges, now, since GW has started providing the prizes. That's increased the frequency of our tournaments significantly.

Anyway, as said, your milage will vary. I haven't been a devotee of GW products for very long, and I get the feeling that things were really much worse before I started. When I started playing Warmachine, most of the original crew were folks who had been alienated by GW. As I started getting into 40k, I realized that, for the most part, the complaints these folks had about GW were basically entirely misfounded--or, at least, were about things that had been changed for the better since they stopped playing.

I can hardly stand the effects of Privateer Fanboy Syndrome anymore and you've had your fill of horror stories originating from GW events. Around here, we get great support from GW, and you apparently just get jack. Perhaps I'm just lucky. ;)

Don't even bring up the linkcod. Man, on their boards it's just obscene.

Linkcod? o.O

it's the filter term PP uses on it's board to replace the word fanboy=) try it sometime=)

Metal or plastic, GW products definitely lend themselves to conversion better than the intricately (and complicatedly) sculpted PP minis. They're a great canvas for the painter, but not so much for the conversion enthusiast.

This has given rise to a sentiment among myself and others in my local group that the game is not quite "ours". "Ours" being in the sense that you can make your own Imperial Guard regiment with its own leaders, etc etc. In PP games, your army is led by a specific character with his own extensive backstory. Granted, there are several special characters in GW games as well, but there is no option in the PP games to make your own Warcaster with his own equipment and spell-list.

I love PP games for the aesthetically pleasing models and its gameplay, paticularly Hordes, but I feel that my WHFB Dwarfs are mine, whereas my Trollbloods are just my paintjob. ...if that makes any sense.

Tarzen: Wow, that's, er...really funny, actually. That must have happened since I stopped posting there.


Quick: I know what you mean. On the other hand, I like a lot of Warmachine's characters, so it doesn't really bother me that they aren't mine.

Also, I play Ultramarines (for the moment) in 40k, so they aren't really mine, either.