I was just thinking about the Imperial chant: "Thought begets heresy". This brings up several points:

1) The fact that the Imperium are attempting to prevent their citizens form rational thought, must mean that they do not want them to realize what the Imperium actually is, and this implies that the Imperium are wrong, but they don't want people to know.

2) The above point could mean that Chaos are in fact the good guys. (yeah, right. but you know what I mean).

3) The imperium are trying to brainwash their citizens and soldiers (through propaganda) into mindless drones designed to serve the (corpse) Emperor's will.


Thoughts?

I have no thoughts. I know only what mass media tells me. I am unable to form opinions. All that I understand is that blind patriotism=good.

But really, you make good points. They do sound a bit...ummm...fascist. Everything belongs to the Emporer, pay homage to the Emporer, do not question the will of the Emporer, etc. Yes it sounds like some of our very own world history is being replayed with a psychic twist. Still, I love the game! But then, I do play tyranid, which are the only race where you can truly be free [/sarcasm off].

That's the point and beauty of 40k, there is no good guy.

The Imperium is a facist, evil regime.

Chaos is into excess, sin, mutation, bad stuff.

Eldar are into decadence, arrogant, manipulative.

Dark Eldar are, well, Dark Eldar.

Orks like to fight.

Tyranids eat everything.

Tau are hippies, communist hippies :o

Necrons/C'tan hate all life, so they want to kill it.

See, there are no good guys or bad guys, no black or white, only varying shades of gray.

some ones read a little to much eisenhorn, compliments on reading material however there are only 3 evils in the universe the xeno hereticus and malleus all are extremis diabolis in the eyes of the god emperor and must be cleansed,interrogated,and killed

the emperor protects,
interrogator deeth

The imperium isn't good nor evil, none of the armys in 40k really are, there fighting for what they belive in, whether it be protection of there people through any means(including killing off billons of there own), vengance, or just getting dinner, everything in 40k is a shade of gray.

The gist of the Emperor and those who rule in his stead is that the Imperium must be puritanical and fascist in order for humanity to stand a chance in an extremely hostile universe. I have always been amused by this notion, unsure whether or not to accept this idea as good or bad. They make a good point and life in the 41st millenium is very different than life now. One the other hand, the implied notions are quite unsettling and a bit terrifying when one thinks about whether or not the creators of 40K are promoting these ideas. GW has always struck me as an unusually conservative company if their products are any proof. The science fiction author Robert E. Heinlen comes to mind. Food for thought I suppose

I kinda see the Imperium as good, only misguided. I just don't believe in the Emperor. God, yes. Emperor, no.

I also slightly disagree with the Imperium's strict doctrines. Strict is one thing, overbearing and tyrannical is another.

I know what you mean about the shades of grey, but ==Me== brought up tau as being just a grey as well. Surely the Tau are the good guys,m with their diplomatic ties, and greater good, or have the auns simply brainwashed me?

I would personaly be inclined to agree that the Tau are probably good as well, or if not "good" as "good" as the Imperium, if not a little better in a sense. I don't know their doctrine, other than "For the greater good" which doesn't tell me much. I haven't read any fluff about the thus far, and don't own the codex. But I assume they aren't as "brutal" as the Imperium. So maybe I'd have to change my vote to go for the Tau as the "good guys".

Well, I also think that there are no real 'good guys'. I mean, most people would think of Imperium forces to be the good guys, just because they are humans, which we consider good (which is just slightly biased). But really, they find a planet, see a few heretics, and go down to kill everything. That's not really fair on the innocent ones.

Oh, and the Tau don't really seem to be for 'The Greater Good', because if they were, they wouldn't be trying to kill everyone while they claim more and more and more and more planets off of the Imperium.

Innocence proves nothing.

the Imperium are the good guys. they do what is necessary to ensure that the Human species survives, most especially the space marines fight for mankind it's just those luny ecclesiarchy bitches who claim to know what the emperor wants even though he'd probably object to whats going on in his empire right now.

still doesnt mean i like them.


Death to the Imperium and Mankind!

Originally posted by Oplopanax@Apr 8 2004, 15:12
Everything belongs to the Emporer, pay homage to the Emporer, do not question the will of the Emporer, etc.
good thing the emperor is just a mute corps then.

The Imperium is trying to exact a stranglehold over humanity and the galaxy. They stabilise the genes of a space marine, so no space marine can ever mutate and enhance humanity at all. Chaos is true, because when you go to Chaos, you usually get a mutation, which is what causes evolution in life. If there were no mutations in our life, we would still be blithering piles of primordial jelly. Plus, the Emperor invaded the galaxy, and thinks it belongs to him. It doesn't. That galaxy belongs to Tzeentch. If he decides, Tzeentch can close that galaxy and end life in it. Also, there have been many philosphies that if there is a God, we must believe in him for him to exist. If no one believes in the Emperor, then he will stop having power over the people.

Chaos is true, because when you go to Chaos, you usually get a mutation, which is what causes evolution in life. If there were no mutations in our life, we would still be blithering piles of primordial jelly.

That's partially true.

Yes, when we "evolve" as species, we "mutate" but we also have random mutations that serve no specific purpose other than creating a variance in the genes. The end result is a "mutation" but in order for the whole mutation/natural selection theory to really apply to humans, we'd need to be not human. Heh, kinda hard to explain, but we manipulate what is around us because we have a certain level of intelligence and cognitive thought. If the Imperium were to let evolution take it's course, to see what would happen, well I think the Tyranids would just win. Anyway, that's not the point :D.

Also, there have been many philosphies that if there is a God, we must believe in him for him to exist

Haha, I've heard a similar theory from an...acquaintence of mine. He was a moron though (not because of his theory, but b/c he was just an ass). He said that he could prove God existed because with enough people believing in him, it focused all their energy into creating a being, God. Well, if that's the case, with enough little children believing in Santa Claus, shouldn't he very well exist? Or the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny? Not to mention, how many people would it take to believe in something before it became "real"?

:D

Originally posted by Lordofchange@Apr 9 2004, 14:22
The Imperium is trying to exact a stranglehold over humanity and the galaxy. They stabilise the genes of a space marine, so no space marine can ever mutate and enhance humanity at all. Chaos is true, because when you go to Chaos, you usually get a mutation, which is what causes evolution in life. If there were no mutations in our life, we would still be blithering piles of primordial jelly.
Humanity is evolving in the 40K universe. Humanity is becoming psychic race. The Imperium's harsh and brutal law dealing with psykers is necessary because humanity does not have the control needed so as not to be enslaved by Chaos. But that is another topic.
Plus, the Emperor invaded the galaxy, and thinks it belongs to him. It doesn't. That galaxy belongs to Tzeentch. If he decides, Tzeentch can close that galaxy and end life in it. Also, there have been many philosphies that if there is a God, we must believe in him for him to exist. If no one believes in the Emperor, then he will stop having power over the people.
Your argument's premises are not sound. You offer no reasons as to why the galaxy belongs to Tzeentch, other than merely stateing it. Then you claim that Tzeentch can "end life in it" without explaining how he can do this. I would offer that you could have supported that it is Tzeentch's galaxy because the only constant is change. However, there is more to the galaxy than change and similar arguments could be made for the other Chaos powers and even the Emperor himself (embodying the will for good).
Also, your statement about people not believing in the Emperor would cause him to cease to exist is also false. Nobody believed in the Emperor for 30000 years yet he existed (I suppose though you could make the argument that the Emperor has apeared as certain messianic figures throughout history, his position as Emperor a culmination of these appearences). One does not have to believe in the Chaos Gods to feed their aspects. Finally, the problem with that philosophy is that it is plausible that God (or other such divine beings) exist independently of the physical realm. If this is true, then God(s) will exist regardless of whether or not people believe in him.

Pah! If anyone can destroy all life in the galaxy, it's the C'tan. They are 9in 40K terms) real, living gods, who can basically do anything. They can eat the stars, for, excuse the pun, gods sake. They could just float to Terra and make the sun into a black hole. Byebye Terra. Byebye Emporer. Byebye Imperium. Then they can just go and eat the super hippie Tau.

But, continuing the direct argument from above, people don't need to belive in them for them to exist. The Necrons are, most likely, the only things to know that the C'tan exist. But they don't need to gather around a fire or visit a religious building and express their belief that he exists so that he can jump put of the ground and smash some space marines. They just exist. No fuss.

Oh, and mutation is required for evolution. The Imperium, though trying to prtect themselves against chaos, are being evil by just killing phychic people. One day, that gene will break out rapidly, and that is when man will enter it's new age. Until then, the Imperium are stopping it. If you've seen X-Men (no, I'm not making this into a film discussion here), then you'll know that they're trying to stop mutant outbreak. All people need is education. Give the psykers a nice school, nice teachers, nice upbringings, and they'll be no problem. Just kill 'em, and they just stop humanity from being superior. OK, I'll shut up now.

But the C'tan are very few (both of them! wahoo!) and can be destroyed utterly by the Talismans of Vaul, wherever the couple that Abbadon did not find and corrupt remain.

None of the gods of Chaos have the power to destroy the galaxy, or the inclination. Why destroy all the things which give you sustenance and manifestations of power? I mean, sure we humans could try to burn all plants and kill all animals, but could we actually DO it? And why the hell would we even want to try?

Chaos is ultimately total evil. The Imperium stands against that evil, but to do so must virtually enslave its own people. The Eldar also stand against that evil, but are willing to use the Imperium as well as any other race as pawns against Chaos, regardless of the destruction that may cause (Armageddon, anybody?). And every other race doesn't really have a stand for or against Chaos, but just tries to scratch out its own place in the galaxy, or keep what they have in the case of the Necrons, and are willing to kill, enslave, basically do anything to ensure that that happens.

I have to agree that none of the races are "good" or "bad;" all are, by our standards, evil and noble in one way or another.

If the Imperium where to look at itself, it would have to kill itself acordind to its own morales.

hiporitical bastards

Its very interesting. I reckon the Imperium is all the things we worry about today and made real and magnified 100 times. it is the most undesirable place to possibly live in IMHO. Humanity has brought all these problems apon itself with blind devotion to a corpse

"The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed"

All the more reason for constant war! Makes for a fun game, no?

Well theres the imperium for you.