well, I hope I am right in thinkingt that there are currently two c'tan-deciever and nightbringer

Also, isn't there 2 others that are undiscovered or still asleep?

Well, the problem starts here. Apparently, nightbringer and deciever are the WEAKER of the c'tan, so the other two will be solid. Now if you look at there stats, these other two will have stats off the scale.

Another problem I see is that what will be released that will counter the power of the necron army.....the primarchs.....maybee robouite or russ, maybee even the lion.

What about other armies, what do they have to deal with this threat. Only time will tell but it still troubles me.

Nightbringer is the strongest, that has been shown several times. They wont get stronger than him.

Well, I thought that there were 5 C'tan that went into hibernation. It was written that the C'tan would only rise once they were disturbed by a sentient species of the right statistics. So, the other three are probably still out there, maybe discovered by bugs, but unwoken. As of yet...

or because the C'tan are special characters, gw could up the point cost for these new C'tan proportionally. I wouldn't have any trouble facinga C'tan if it cost enough points for me to field 30 or more battle sisters for the same cost.

The Outsider and Dragon are not as powerful as the Nightbringer in the realm of sheer power but the Dragon has the fact it's sleeping on Mars and was worshipped as the Machine God at one time, there is a chance that a good portion of the Adeptus Mechanicus could break away when the Dragon reawakens, this may be rather soon as they mention some stuff about it in the Necron Codex.

The Outsider is another story entirely, he apparently is sleeping in a Dyson Sphere that is 1.3 Astrnomical Units across, this means it has a diameter larger than the distance from Terra to the Sun. Even more puzzling is the fact that the Tyranid Hive Fleet is entirely avoiding whole systems around this Dyson Sphere. The outsider may have some connection to the Tyranids.

One things that could be bad for everyone, the Necron Codex states that when the Nightbringer awoke he was very weak and nearly dead, he hasn't been awake very long and would logically be rather frail still, wouldn't that mean he will be getting stronger as time goes on and a revised version of him may be more powerful yet?

Yeah it does, but the problem is , even if nightbringer is the strongest and may get stonger.....who is there to challenge em. (Iknow 30 battle sisters could do it lol) but I mean in the whole background of the game, not just on the battle field.

well although the Ctan arent part of the warp they are vulnerable to its powers, so Ahriman could probably take down a Ctan

There is going to be a lot of convuluted plot lines (just the way i like though) that involve finding and bringing together the remaining Talismans of Vaul. Prehaps a chance for Eldrad Ulthran to make a cameo for beyond the grave?

every teem should NOT have a 300 point character at their disposial. 250 is pushing it. 360 is way past.

I think that the c'tan should have an in game vulrebileny to psichic powers, for obvious reasons.

I believe the Talismans of Vaul were pretty well put out of the Eldars reach by the Deceiver, he certainly doesn't want to be blown apart so he hid them well and made sure they could never be retrieved in some cases.

If the Nightrbinger does grow in strength he'll become one of those things you'll have to have an absolutely massive army to even make it feasible to field him.
I do think that the Necron are going to take the prize for having the most beefed up independent character though. Each C'tan squeezes just a tiny fraction of his powers into the Necrodermis so they're capable of interacting with us little guys, I bet if the Nightbringer really wanted he could just float over to a planet and start sucking the life out of people planetwide.
In a way I'm both hopeful and scared to see if the Nightbringer grows in strength, if he does get even higher stats he could be insane but it would be interesting to see.

well abaddon has atleast two talismans of vaul one of which has the spirit of eldrad in it and both are possessed by greater daemons making them more powerful so if any of the C'tan get out of hand i think abaddon will just pop 'em off with the talismans.

Maybe the Greater Daemons could take out a C'Tan....
A Bloodthirster did nearly take down Saginarius in a fight in some fluff about the Horus Heresy in WD

Yeah, in the Space Marine codex, it says that you can only field a chapter banner in armies of over 2000 points. This could be incorparated for a stronger Nightbringer. You need an army of over 2500 points for the C'tan to deem this battle worthy of help. That's help control someone putting one in in a low points battle.

well we all know captain ventris is out of his leauge with the nightbringer!!!

i think that the greyknights would be able to take him down pretty easy.
and im fairly sure that if one of the primarches came face to face with one they could take him down.

I had an idea the other day, that special characters should only be used in World-Wide campaigns, and if they died, they were taken out of the system for good. Think about it, if Marneus Calgar got killed by a Lascannon, how would someone else use him in a game. It doesn't make sense.

well, he falls and he taken off by his brither matines to fight another day seems to work for me. And that idea is poor considering that allows one person being able to use a s character . So why by it?

well that happens any way, we just saw eldrad die and tyco died in armageddon, any battles with them in are now assumed to be set befor they died.

The C'tan models are WAY too weak for their fluff. I mean, in fluff terms, they ARE godly. There is no way anything in existence, from Primarch Leman Russ to an Apocalypse Class Battlership, could EVER have a hope of deafeating a C'tan. Gamewise, they make them mortal and give the excuse that they have just awoken.

Also, Abaddon has no idea how to use his Talismans. If he just powers up the guns and lets the C'tan have it, they will laugh and chop him in half.

A Greater Daemon would last all of a few seconds against a *****ed C'tan. You guys don't seem to understand how strong these things are. Sure, the Warp is anathema to them. And yes, if there is a way to kill them, it would come from the Warp. But we're not talking Greater Daemon; I'm thinking a summoning circle of twelve of the most powerful Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, with Magnus at the head, chanting for a thousand and one days. MAYBE then. Read the Necron codex. The C'tan were in the process of DESTROYING THE WARP when the Old Ones made their final gambit. You read that right. DESTROYING THE WARP. They can DO that.
In my view, it's a mistake to have them in the game. Sure, they've been weakened by slumber, but not that much. If the rules followed fluff, the only match for the Nightbringer would be a Chaos God. Hey they should have a new version of Warhammer. Godsmack! Play as a Chaos God, a C'tan, an Eldar God, or maybe even the Star Child. Awesome!

The nice thing about the C'tan is if their destroyed only the Necrodermis is destroyed, the actual energy creature that inhabits the Necrodermis leaves to inhabit a new one.

The C'tan are one of the few special characters that have a reason why they can be used after their destroyed. But if they do introduce a stronger Nightbringer it should have a point cap (like 2000), that way the only way the Nightbringer would even pay attention to the Necrons is if they engage against a lot of stuff.

That and I think Abaddon won't be using his Talismans against the C'tan anytime soon, the Deceiver led him to his demon sword from the sounds of the fluff and he knows of the Dragon on Mars, that could make a big mess of the Imperium and we know that would be a good thing for Chaos (at least temporarily, till the C'tan turned to them). The only way you can explain the C'tan gamewise is that they are extraordinarily weak currently, the Deceiver is at his peak but his powers rely on deception and subterfuge. Odds are the only thing that would be a true match for an unrestrained C'tan in their true form would be a God of Chaos or maybe the Emperor.

Originally posted by Deciever@Apr 13 2004, 18:13
Read the Necron codex. The C'tan were in the process of DESTROYING THE WARP when the Old Ones made their final gambit. You read that right. DESTROYING THE WARP. They can DO that.

That is a bit misleading, they were in the process of closing off the warp from the material galaxy, not the actual destruction of the Warp itself. The Warp exists independent of the physical world. The Warp's turbulent nature is due to the discordant psyche of all the races of the galaxy. The turbulence in and of itself is not a property of the warp.

Also, I do not think there is anything there to imply the Deceiver's hand in Abaddon's discovery of Drach'nyen.

the Deciever didnt lead Abaddon to his daemon sword, don't know what made you think that.

im pretty sure that Abaddon does know how to use the talisman's and with Eldrad's soul trapped he can always question him or the gods about how they work.

the Deciever didnt lead Abaddon to his daemon sword, don't know what made you think that.
There was some mention in a White Dwarf somwhere, IIRC.

And remember, that the C'tan need to use Necrodermis shells to fight on the battlefields... the shell can be destroyed, while the C'tan itself is immortal.

Originally posted by the_fifth_horseman@Apr 14 2004, 04:39
There was some mention in a White Dwarf somwhere, IIRC.

And remember, that the C'tan need to use Necrodermis shells to fight on the battlefields... the shell can be destroyed, while the C'tan itself is immortal.
I have every issue of White Dwarf from 197 to 290 (except 208) and honestly I dont think it was in any WD i have ever read. And no, the C'tan are not immortals. They can and have been killed by ther fellow C'tan and they can also be kill with the Talismans of Vaul.

the eldar are the ones who can defeat the c'tan.there is a story in the back of the codex,but in order for them to win they have to act fast.the eldar did it once,they will do it again

There is a mention of someone would could likely be the Deceiver on the Eye of Terror page.

"Beneath the Tower of Silence on Uralan, Abaddon was led to the Daemon Sword Drach’nyen by a golden-skinned stranger.."

This coupled with his ploys to start the Gothic War to eliminate several Talismans of Vaul (Blackstone Fortress) he seems like the likely person that lead Abaddon to his sword.

The most likely explanation is that the Chaos Gods wanted him to be equipped well. He is, after all, their champion and it is a demon sword.

out of curiosity since you guys are borering on rules, can the c'tan become a chaos spawn?

according to what I know the next big event envolves the c'tan sometime in 2005

They should never have been given stats. When a C'tan gets taken out by a GK Psycannon squad, it's just wrong on so many levels.

Originally posted by Deciever@Apr 13 2004, 18:13
The C'tan models are WAY too weak for their fluff. I mean, in fluff terms, they ARE godly. There is no way anything in existence, from Primarch Leman Russ to an Apocalypse Class Battlership, could EVER have a hope of deafeating a C'tan. Gamewise, they make them mortal and give the excuse that they have just awoken.

Also, Abaddon has no idea how to use his Talismans. If he just powers up the guns and lets the C'tan have it, they will laugh and chop him in half.

A Greater Daemon would last all of a few seconds against a *****ed C'tan. You guys don't seem to understand how strong these things are. Sure, the Warp is anathema to them. And yes, if there is a way to kill them, it would come from the Warp. But we're not talking Greater Daemon; I'm thinking a summoning circle of twelve of the most powerful Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, with Magnus at the head, chanting for a thousand and one days. MAYBE then. Read the Necron codex. The C'tan were in the process of DESTROYING THE WARP when the Old Ones made their final gambit. You read that right. DESTROYING THE WARP. They can DO that.
In my view, it's a mistake to have them in the game. Sure, they've been weakened by slumber, but not that much. If the rules followed fluff, the only match for the Nightbringer would be a Chaos God. Hey they should have a new version of Warhammer. Godsmack! Play as a Chaos God, a C'tan, an Eldar God, or maybe even the Star Child. Awesome!
In game terms, there isnt alot to bring down a Ctan. But something that works especially well is an Eldar Seer Coucil with 3 Farseer's or more with mind blast. If the warlocks have augment, which they should, this gives the ability to shoot it from a long distance with no fear of being charged.

In fluff terms this would be some what effective i belive too. since the lords and the ctan are the only ones with actual minds and thought processes, and the fact that they dont like psychic or warp energy, it might not be able to kill one...but be a relative effective weapon to combat them.

Originally posted by Haemogod@Apr 17 2004, 04:20
out of curiosity since you guys are borering on rules, can the c'tan become a chaos spawn?
The Necrodermis can be turned into a Spawn so gameplay wise yes it can

However in background terms all you do is slow it down and really enrage it

This has turned out to be an interesting topic. I could never understand why the C'tans were prohibited from most games, and now I know.

Fluff wise, this is some disturbing stuff. I always knew the Chaos Gods and the Emperor were powerful, but the nightbringer seems to puts them to shame.

the only way that is really feesible to remove the threat of the c'tan is for a ship to sacrifice itself by getting close to it and overloading its warp engines - tearing them both into the warp - but noone is realistically going to do that as it means loosing thier souls to the warp.

the primarches probable could do if they came back but it would take more than one to do it - Russ and Magnus would probably have the best chance as magnus could assault it mentally while russ protects him and knocks seven shades out of its body. pitty that probably wont happen

Garth:
I'm sure a Commissar would gladly give his soul to the warp if it meant destroying one of those C'Tan...then again any good Imperial citizen "should" be willing to gladly give his life for anything that i...erhm...that the High Lords would want them to sacrifice it for.

Ahh, visualizing the zealous commissar on the bridge of a battle cruiser commanding the crew...

"Full speed forward!"

"But Sir, that'll take us right into it!"

"My plan exactly! Start the reactor overload, And May The Emperor Safeguard Our Souls!"

hmm...*shiver*

Anyways.
I'm on the theory that it was the Deceiver that led Abbadon to Drach'nyen, who knows why exactly...but i'm sure the Deceiver has a plan...the *****.

Another thing.
I've been wondering if the C'Tan have to inhabit one Necrodermis at a time. I mean couldn't they theoretically spread themselves out? :huh:
This would justify why C'Tan are included in smaller battles (why not give the 'lil buggers a hand?).

im pretty positive if any one "guided" him there it would be Tzeentch.


i think they can only possess one necrodermis at a time as it represents them transferring their conciousness with some of their power into the shell. but i have no idea if this is true or not.

The Nightbringer truely does put a lot of the other big guys to shame.

According to the Codex the ingrained fear of death and the manifestations that peopel think represent death (the Grim Reaper, etc..) are actually ingrained from the long ago conflicts with the C'tan and specifically Nightbringer.

In short terms he as close to the physical embodiement of all the primal terror and fears of death as you'll ever get.

I had a brainstorm about the C'tan and the Emporer.
The Emporer was Immortal, Right. and the description of the golden throne is sound stangely similar to the Necron's vampiric machines (you know the stuff the intend to enslave humanity to). so I only wondered is the Emperor a C'TAN or am I just a nutter. he has live for thousand of years, Humanity must be his brain child.

its ok, ctan are stupid and over priced in points,, their not even worth taking in the first place

I really don't see why people worry about the C'Tan being too powerful. Maybe if they were in an army that didn't phase out they would be, but since Necrons have to worry about that then there are very few (good) players who will take one in less than a 2500 point game. It just eats up too many point that could be "Nercons" and help with phase out.

the c'tan are scary. i charged a nightbringer with a land raider and he just stood there! then the tank got shown what it feels like to be ripped in two! by one guy!

Actually...AC Defiler may have a point.
From the images i've seen of the golden throne, it looks slightly pyramidish in shape right?

Just like a MONOLITH!

Arrgg...

And the whole thing about the Emperor, super power, immortality, super mind...*shudder*.

But do you think the Emperor could be a C'Tan, or better yet one of the Ancient Ones?

Hang on, let me get this straight... you charged a Nightbringer with a land raider..? Can I have some of what you smoked?

As for the emperor being a C'Tan... I doubt it, and if this ever turns out to be true, it proves a serious lack of creativity on GW's side.
"Hey, wasn't there some guardian of the-"
"It's a C'Tan."
"Oh... okay."

He thought he could tank shock my Nightbringer. Needless to say the results were predictable...

I so doubt the emperor is a ctan. The main reason is he is not old enough to be one. Thje C'tan are so old they outlive the emperor seven x seven fold.

Cheers, Lipine

Where may I ask is the entity on Mars called 'The Dragon', I had guessed that there may have been a sleeping C'Tan on Mars but wasnt sure. The implications of this are huge! It means that all of humanities technology is just a fabrication an imitation of Necron technology. And if this is the case why didnt the Emperor notice or sence this entity? Maybe he did and used it to his own advantages, afterall, the Golden Thrown does look like a monolith (vaugly) and sustains his life with.....A stasis field! Maybe salvaged from The Dragon's lair on Mars? I know there is a diagram of a mysterious sphere in the back of the Necron codex but where is it mensioned as a dysons sphere? What are the implications of the outsider being trapped within a dysons sphere, and didnt the Laughing God banish it to wander the webway?
I have also wondered whether or not the Necrons are manipulating (or have infact enginered them to aid them) the Tyrannids, consuming all life on worlds so that the Necrons can move in and make themselves at home. Just a thought...

Apparently the Dragon is contained somewhere in the Nocits Labyrinth Mines. Five Necron Shroud Class Cruisers penetrated the Mars Defence Perimiter and one even managed to land on Mars. A guy in the Codex also mentioned the Noctis Labyrinth as the sleeping place of the Dragon. One of the most interesting facts is the deal that great knowledge was won from unknown sources and this caused the downfall of man from the Age of Technology. One of the main causes of this were the Men of Iron, sentient machines.


The Outsider is an even weirder story, he is mentioned as being inside a world within a world and that the Horizon curved up and around a Sun so close it could seem to be touched. This is a perfect description of a Dyson Sphere. The mention that it is 1.04 Astronomical Units across is also a good indicator of that.

The Nid theory has only two things holding it together, the fact that a Tyranid Hive Fleet is completely avoiding entire systems around the Dyson Sphere and the 'Shadow of the Warp' is not affecting those areas as astropathic communication is still usable in those systems and out of them. The other tendril is the fact that the Warp is the only thing that can harm a C'tan and the Tyranids block out Warp Based Communications entirely and does other such odd stuff to the warp.

What is a Dyson sphere? I am a bit lost from your description.

A Dyson Sphere is an absolutely massive (even for 40K terms) artificial world, they are simply a shell and the population is on the inner surface of the shell, this may seem absurd but the Dyson Sphere encloses an entire star. It is set so the internal surface of the sphere is just the right distance from the star to make an atmosphere like Earth. The key point of it is the fact that the internal living space is likely thousands of times that of an entire Hive World.

And the scary thing about the one the Outsider is reputed to be in is the fact that it is one Astronomical Unit across, this means it would actually be 155,581,785.51864 Kilometers across...

That seems extremely big. So, are you saying that there may be a c'tan in the dyson sphere? That would explain alot. And do the impeium know its there?

Cheers, lipine

From the sounds of it the Outsider is inside the Dyson Sphere, apparently the Imperium knows that there is a massive object out there but due to the fact it's so close to the Tyranid Hive Fleet they don't want to go and say hello.

If the Hive Fleet is stopped then they may go to see the object and determine what to do but that an iffy situation.