Hi, everyone. I just started playing dwarves (used to play High Elves, and then Brentonnians) and I mainly play against a Wood Elf army with LOTs of glade guard. (I'm talking 2 units of 12, 2 scouts units of 5, 5 Glade riders, and 2 units of waywatchers 5 each) He also fields a small unit of Dyrads, which usually don't pose much of a problem. But the archers are the main problem. His army is so fast, and shoots so many arrows every round it seems impossible for my slow dwarves to defeat it. Any advice?

My army as of right now consists of Bugman, 10 Rangers(with throwing axes), 10 Longbeards, 1 Cannon, 10 Thunderers and a few other units.

Any units I should invest in?

Firstly, what point size are you playing? That'll help us to determine exactly what is possible. However, I feel I must ask why are you playing Bugman? He's a decent character, but he is also very specialised in the fact he works with rangers. In general, rangers are a bad choice. The thing about rangers is that they're an expensive warrior unit (or Longbeards) who are completely unsupported scouting out there on their own.

Dwarfs vs wood elves is not a good match up, as they are basically on the opposite ends of the scale in places. Dwarfs win by static combat, so to make sure this is so you are required a number of things. On units of warriors, longbeards, hammerers, and ironbreakers you should always have:


standard
full ranks (ie 20+)


This gives you, on a basic warrior unit, a static combat resolution of +4 (3 for ranks, 1 for banner). This is how dwarfs win. The fact your basic troops have, T4, high save (3+ in combat for warriors) and high LD combined with the +4 you can start with, then you are very hard to shift. [Note that the special units could get away with 15, but 20 is a much better choice]

The wood elves win by reducing your numbers with shooting, then attacking with their few combat units at once to wipe out a unit at a time. Thus the army is very mobile and without any real static units they will avoid combat a lot.

So, what can you do against them?

Take big blocks of units, perhaps make use of an organ gun or gyrocopter to bring out the units in terrain etc (te auto hits from the organ gun and template from the gyro). Otherwise, there is no easy win here, you need to engage units in combat. You need to be wary of war dancers, as they have KB, which can easily end your expensive units and even characters very quickly.


Anyone who's actually played Wood Elves have any advice? I believe this is all quite basic information.

Kuffy

Firstly, what point size are you playing? That'll help us to determine exactly what is possible. However, I feel I must ask why are you playing Bugman? He's a decent character, but he is also very specialised in the fact he works with rangers. In general, rangers are a bad choice. The thing about rangers is that they're an expensive warrior unit (or Longbeards) who are completely unsupported scouting out there on their own.

Dwarfs vs wood elves is not a good match up, as they are basically on the opposite ends of the scale in places. Dwarfs win by static combat, so to make sure this is so you are required a number of things. On units of warriors, longbeards, hammerers, and ironbreakers you should always have:

standard
full ranks (ie 20+)
This gives you, on a basic warrior unit, a static combat resolution of +4 (3 for ranks, 1 for banner). This is how dwarfs win. The fact your basic troops have, T4, high save (3+ in combat for warriors) and high LD combined with the +4 you can start with, then you are very hard to shift. [Note that the special units could get away with 15, but 20 is a much better choice]

The wood elves win by reducing your numbers with shooting, then attacking with their few combat units at once to wipe out a unit at a time. Thus the army is very mobile and without any real static units they will avoid combat a lot.

So, what can you do against them?

Take big blocks of units, perhaps make use of an organ gun or gyrocopter to bring out the units in terrain etc (te auto hits from the organ gun and template from the gyro). Otherwise, there is no easy win here, you need to engage units in combat. You need to be wary of war dancers, as they have KB, which can easily end your expensive units and even characters very quickly.


Anyone who's actually played Wood Elves have any advice? I believe this is all quite basic information.

Kuffy

Points are variable. The main issue is, this player uses an inordinate number of archers, compared to his army's point size. He uses virtually no close combat units, no matter what points size he plays. Invariably he rains down what FEELS like hundreds of arrows on me every turn.

His strategy is simple but effective. He ties my units down with scouts and waywatchers, preventing any marching, and harasses me with glade runners, while the main force of glade guard are positioned on the other end of the board firing tons of arrows. I can't tell you how frustrating this is.

As for Bugman, I use him and the rangers mainly as the theme of the army is that they are sort of a roaming brewery. The bottles all have beer mugs (either in hand, or on the ground) and a couple of dwarves are actually carrying barrels on their backs (kegs).

His strategy is simple but effective. He ties my units down with scouts and waywatchers, preventing any marching, and harasses me with glade runners, while the main force of glade guard are positioned on the other end of the board firing tons of arrows. I can't tell you how frustrating this is.

I would suggest you check your dwarf rules, there. Dwarfs can always march unless a spell/item stop them. [Dwarf book, P28, "Relentless"] Those scouts etc will do nothing to stop your eternal 6" march a turn.

Kudos on the theme, always nice to see a list like that. Might I suggest more rangers? Perhaps something like miners to help out as well? One thing one unit should have is the MRoGrungni. The ward save against shooting will increase the chances of your units surviving longer - 4+ armour save, then a 5+ ward. If given to the longbeards, the units in range of that rune will also be in range of their old grumblers rule and that should keep them stable for longer.

Kuffy

I would suggest you check your dwarf rules, there. Dwarfs can always march unless a spell/item stop them. [Dwarf book, P28, "Relentless"] Those scouts etc will do nothing to stop your eternal 6" march a turn.

Kudos on the theme, always nice to see a list like that. Might I suggest more rangers? Perhaps something like miners to help out as well? One thing one unit should have is the MRoGrungni. The ward save against shooting will increase the chances of your units surviving longer - 4+ armour save, then a 5+ ward. If given to the longbeards, the units in range of that rune will also be in range of their old grumblers rule and that should keep them stable for longer.

Kuffy

ah thanks. yeah that helps. like i said, new to dwarves. great tips too.

Ah, sorry I missed that. Is a very important rule, something that makes dwarfs quite good when things get close. =) To be fair, I am not that experienced myself - don't get to game that much, more a painter myself. But, I have been a dwarf player for like 10 years so I know how things work in theory. haha. =)

Best of luck, any other questions feel free to ask us all. Have an ale on Arklite's tab. ;)

Kuffy

Yeah I never played as or against dwarves before. We've played 3 games now, and my army isn't even finished painting yet. Hopefully things will be a little different this next battle.

heh, well it tends to be trial and error and reading lots of information on them. You might find this helpful (also the best dwarf site on the net) ~ GORAKAZAK ~ DWARFS VS. WOOD ELVES - Bugmans Brewery Forum - The Home for all Dwarf Warhammer Fans (http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/-GORAKAZAK-DWARFS-VS-WOOD-ELVES-t5563.html)

Kuffy

Core slot: quarelers - against elves you have the same range, +1S, +1T,+1 Armor saves
Special slots: grudge towers - template ignoring cover save in forests(bye scouts and waywatchers), rune of burning for 5 points funny (bye dryads), or other magic runes (bye ward save)
Rare: No gyro-he shoot it down, but organ gun to keep distance

You have better shooting potencial than your opponent. Simply shoot him down, you need not to spend the same amount of point to be better at shooting, what make really difference are warmachines (canons and bolt throwers no, they shoot ranks)

Great advice guys. I am still wary as he uses A LOT of archery, something which seems a little like cheese to me. No forest spirits, save a few dryads, mostly all glade guard and scouts. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Organ guns rip scouts to shreds (Since you don't need to roll to hit) The rest I'd say Quarrelers. You'll have a harder time hitting, but he'll have a harder time wounding. Maybe some miners too to pop out at unexpected places.

might i propose you invest in the master rune of grungi? that 6" radius is more than you think and its perfectly possible to cover 4 combat units under its effects :D

and having an extra save makes a huge distance. i ran down an empire gunline last night to the loss of only 2 longbeards to handgun fire :D

rune of burning for 5 points funny (bye dryads

I don't really have much to add (I'm a WE player, but have never played against Dwarfs). I just thought I'd point out that Flammable Dryads is actually a common misconception. While they share some of the same rules as Treekin and Treemen (Fear, Forest Spirit), they do NOT have the flammable rule, and so aren't fussed by flaming attacks. (Well, no more fussed than if they weren't flaming). Of course, magical attacks will indeed remove their precious Ward save...

I would like to add, check his army list......

Especialy if you are new, and you haven't read the WE army book.
Also if he told you that you cannot march!! near his scouts, double check his list.
It stinks like a dead rotting goblin.

Having Dwarves shouldn't be difficult to do more damage after your first shooting phase.

I don't know how valuable my advice is since it's more than ten years since I played with my Wood Elves against a Dwarf army and I just restarted playing recently. However, I can still tell you what my biggest fear was when playing against Dwarves (or the Empire, for the matter): artillery.

Artillery is the tool that lets you seriously outgun a Wood Elf general. Arrows are nasty, of course, but a Glade Guard is rather weak and will have a hard time against decent toughness and armor stats. If you roll heavy artillery onto the battlefield, however, the WE general knows that none of his units will be save unless he's hiding them in the woods. However, in the woods his units are pretty much useless as you're not stupid enough to walk into those.

Furthermore, if a GG wants to fire at you, he needs to have you in his line of sight, which means in return that he is in yours, too. If he's too deep in the woods (more than two inches) he won't be able to shoot at you; if he has placed his models within 2 inches of the woods border to shoot at you, you can also shoot back.

Most WE generals (at least those who are sort of smart) field GG in one rank counting 10 models (musician included for rallying). The threat of artillery demands that the models stand in a single rank or heavy losses are to be expected. Furthermore, if the unit of GG is not standing on a hill, only the front rank is allowed to fire their arrows. However, having them in a single rank greatly decreases their maneuverability, especially if you have a small battlefield and try to use two or three of those units. Having short ranks in favor of maneuverability requires that the WE generals uses the minimal number of models, so that's why he has 10 in one rank. Unit size 10 means, however, that you need to shoot down only three models to have him take a Leadership test, which should not be too hard to accomplish as the GG don't wear any armor.

I suggest using artillery to dominate the marching/firing lanes so the Wood Elf wants to stay away from those and hide in the woods. The organ gun seems to fit that task, so add as many as you can. If you also add the runes as previously suggested to negate cover saves, you'll definitely give him a rough time. If you're also able to deny him using hills when setting up the battlefield/choosing sides, you'll challenge his GG quite a bit.

Hope this helps somewhat. :)

As a wood elf general who plays dwarves a fair bit, I'll try and help you out. I don't really find my shooting to be too too effective at long range (I will kill some, but no where near as many as I will kill once I get the lovely S4 and the lack of -1 modifier to my BS at close range).

Waywatchers, to be completely honest, are more intimidating, in my experience, than effective. They are awesome at march blocking, but that of course matter not to dwarves. If I have a 5 man unit of waywatchers shooting at say, a unit of iron breakers at short range, on average I might kill one. Not that great.

Units I would watch out for- Flyers. Both Great Eagles and especially Warhawk Riders are pretty good at taking out warmachine crews; take them down! (Go after warhawk riders first; not only do their minimum unit size cost over one hundred points, their hit and run rule is pretty nice for warmachine hunting).

If you have several Wood Elf units about to charge one of your large units, make sure to try and take out Wild Riders, Treekin, or any non skirmishing unit about to charge a flank. This is necessary, as these units get rid of your combat resolution, which, when combine with the decent damage they'll be putting out, probably spells a a dead unit for you. Skirmishing units, such as dryads, wardancers, etc. charging your flank are still a threat, but not as large as non skirmishing units are.

And for taking out those scouts and waywatchers, as it might have been already stated, warmachines that don't use BS such as grudge throwers are nice. *shiver* The Anivl of Doom was used against me the other day, and that was pretty brutal, especially when the dwarf player used Ancient Power. I know it is both a point sink and even worse, a risky point sink, but it is somethign to consider. I hope this helps, and good luck. :happy:

Well as an ex-wood elf player that has turned to everything beardy I agree with what has been said.

The rune of grugni is smart, shield the lads on the march. Strollaz would be good too, as it cuts down the distance to the enemy that little bit faster and works well with your rangers scout. Miners are a good thought, a couple of units in his deployment zone can either tie up the archers or take their arrows, either way is good. Rune of challenge will really piss him off if its a unit of archers you target. Finally if you take a grudge thrower give it the rune of immolation. That will catch his fast unit by real surprise when he tries to take it out!

i was actually wondering how dwarfs would stand up to ultra mobile wood elf armies and an army made up entirely of archers with a unit of dryads is perfectly feasible and legal, even if its beardy

my friend started a wood elf army and runs something similiar, although we haven't played against each other only with and dwarfs and wood elves are a perfect combination a treeman is really cool too but i'd doubt he'd take that against me and my cannons/bolt throwers

i normally always take thunderers cuz of the +1 to hit but with it being move or fire and the wood elfs being able to move and shoot with no penalty it would seem quarrerllers would be infinitely better

never used organ gun, but sounds awesome

i find longbeard rangers with throwing axes to be a bane against ogres, probably be good against woodelves as well

as far as his scouts go, don't give him any place too great to hide, war machines see 360 and then position units so that he would set up some place and get owned or deploy normally.

that free march move banner seems like it would work, as well as the rune of challenge if those glade riders get too annoying

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this one yet, but investing in the MR of challenge is never a bad idea when playing against wood elves. I generally use it against the warhawk riders or independant characters, but it would also be good to force a unit of archers that is 10 inches away to charge you or flee.

Personnally i use two organ guns when fighting WE (auto-hits are awesome) but if he does an all-shooting army then they probably wont be in range anytime soon.

The flame cannon also works well against WE. Guess twelve inches, add the arty dice, and with a decent bounce you can get to 30 inches about, and that panic check is incredibly useful.

Oh, and if you want to be really chessy, get a unit of allied ogres to run up a flank and distract him while your main line moves forward

You know, I used to fear Dwarfs, but I run a lot of shooting with my WEs and do okay against the stunties.

I have 30 glade guard, 6 glade riders, 6 scouts, and three characters that shoot: highborn with armor-ignoring arrows, noble with hail of doom arrow, and stupid spellsinger who always rolls 1's.

Once I'm at short range, the strength and to hit of my arrows can really do a number on dwarfs' armor saves.

As long as I avoid combat, I can pick apart units like longbeards, warriors, and hammerers.

Anvils work great against armies like mine. Miners are a problem, and organ guns are the bane of my existence.

Gyrocopters present problems for me.

firstly i never have played against a shooting WE army. my opponent is an immune to psycho kind of guy. treefolk, treekin, dryads, wild riders of kurnos. dead annoying because combat res does nothing much. i have to kill him by fighting hard.
secondly, always try to outshoot your opponent, that is a dwarfy thing to do. take a few miners to get rid of his shooters. organ guns are amazing against skirmishers and hidy troops. gryocopters (borrowed) i use against goblin players and noone really else because fanatics are a danger to the closest units. the gyrocopter idea is one i will use in future.
thirdly, do not walk into a forest, as the WE will run circles around you shooting your brains out. try to ingore them and use characters with oathstones. if you walk by the forest and ignore the units they can't hurt much, nor can they charge you to get a decent fight because you have no flank. therefore you are almost imvincible in WE combat as they try to flank you if they can.

Being a WE player and having played dwarfs only once, but recently ill give a little advice.

Firstly, the anvil of doom scares WE players, especially ones with forest spirits. And it gives alot of DD to shut down their spellcasting. Anything ranged that does magic or flaming attacks falls in the category too.

Gyro's can hurt but expect a archer heavy list to target them if they look like they are going to try take a shot. They can fairly easily kill a good amount of GG in a shot if its positioned correctly. Your opponent with a archer heavy list will probly not consider his GG much of a sacraficial unit as others WE players.

Your going to want to kill of fast movers like Glade Riders, Wild Riders, Warhawks and Eagles quickly. Especially the fast cav as a flank/rear charge can negate your rank bonus and possibly cause you to lose combat. Glade Riders are fairly fragile against shooting, same with warhawks.

Dryads and War Dancers, which nasty (esp WD) can be quite fragile aswell without any armor save and only a 5+ ward on dryads and 6+ on WD (Unless using dance in combat). They can die to concentrated shooting but will probly take an extra turn or 2 because they are harder to hit.

Personally from a WE perspective, you would be best of taking on a Shooty WE army with shooting yourself, you can easily get just as much and even more shooting then him. The time when WE shooting really shines is at 15" or less with GG because of the +1 Str, and if he isnt advancing to get into that range just pummel him with your warmachines and your own gunline. Simple fact is dwarfs have more survivability against WE shooting then WE have against dwarf shooting imo.

Yeah, I agree. Anvils are a bitch. Miners charging your ass in the rear can hurt.

Hmmmm quick answer=Thorek Ironbrow with anvil of doom using the ancient power of the Ro Wrath and Ruin xD I doubt you're playing games the big tho... so i would say miners would be very useful in this situation. All you need to do is wait for the miners to come up on your opponent's table edge and then he will have to choose between the immidiate problem of the 10-20 S5 dwarves behind him or the coming doom slowly marching towards him. Ironbreakers would also be a solution but a risky and possibly gruesome one. They could wither your opponent's arrows with their 3+ sv(with shields) and make their way to the other side of the table... Eventually. Oh yeah... and if you want to use any solo heros give them the RoShielding! So if you want a simple solution, get miners.

P.S. I hope you have a regiment of warriors or that army is illegal

P.S.S. How many points is the army?