Friend of mine saw a store copy.

Said it would make me weep we haven't gotten a new Army Book yet, and that point for point it's just horrendous (his implication is, like the other army books, this time around has mostly been full of more army buffing and less army nerfing so I'm not going to like what I see when I see the Daemon stats/costs/powers/choice of special characters/etc).

Admitadly though he's a Skaven player and likes to give me crap because he knows he's getting a book he likes sooner now then I get another book I like. So he MIGHT just be messing with me.

I haven't seen it yet, so I'm wondering if anyone has seen the new 2008 Chaos Daemon one, and what's it mean for Lizardmen while we await a new Army Book sometime around 20Unannounced.

I'm hoping at the least we can still wipe them out if we beat them bad enough.

well generally speaking lizardmen are better prepared to deal with them than many other armies. why might you ask? well for starters we get the biggest baddest mage lords in the game and acess to the lore of light. S6 magic missile anyone? S6 cleansing flare? lots of dead deamons i reckon >=]

in addittion we have characters idealing for rank and file with magi demi-wards. the pure weight of attacks that oldbloods and scar veterans can throw out is well worth the effort and all the better with a magic weapon ^_^

Daemons, meet the Blade of Realities HA!!

I really hope GW stops the "power creep" that has started with new warhammer armies. The ASF is just stupid and the VC can be min/maxed to undeath.

Daemon book sounds cool, I just hope they dont go too far.

Power creep is necessary to increase the marketability of the current releases. Although ASF was a bit crazy (an elven archer, a CIVILIAN, attacks before a dark elf lord who has initiative X, is charging and has a 3 metre long lance... WHAT?! HOW!!).

I think daemons will not be too much of a problem for us with our awesome magic (as Arklite aptly pointed out), troops almost as elite as the daemons (But cheaper. Yay! An army we can outnumber!), generally superior manoeuvrability (unless they still get those M10 fast cavalry purple naked ladies on sea horses that they got in Storm of Chaos) and good leadership to deal with fear.

I''ve been reading horror stories about the lore of tzeentch in the book.

Which is just as well really, I've always felt his lore was a little underpowered for someone who is supposed to be the god of magic ^_^

Let me clarify a little...

I am NOT asking for general anti-daemon, what makes us good, generic wisdom like that. While such information is useful and has it's place, it's beyond the scope of my specific question here.

I am specifically trying to have addressed ONLY issues that arise from the new Chaos Daemon book (which BTW I have now seen a store copy of myself), specifically new issues or exacerbated issues compared to what they currently are vs. Lizardmen.

Please understand I'm not demeaning any of the general stuff being said here, I'm only trying to point out it's beyond the scope I was trying to limit the question to.

I'm wanting only new issues, or old issues being changed due to this new book.



IF you've seen the new book (or at least been told about it by a trusted source).

IF you understand some of the new changes.

THEN what is your opinion on how it effects us.

I can say with limited certainty the lists got nastier. All Chaos Daemon armies appear to be very doable now, and I actually think they're stronger then their SoC lists from last Ed. (and least the Nurgle and Khorne guys I play tested a small game the other day with appeared to be so). Admitadly it wasn't as bad as I feared, but it's definetly a factor.

I don't think it was ASF grade improvement, but it was definetly some improving going on.

You can still make them go POOF if you beat them bad enough, but that's going to be tougher with some of their changes in stats, rules, and costs.

And yes... the magic lores... ACK!!!

Though I will say the roughest issue to me is that all these new books offer warhammer generals of their armies several special characters that are fully, non-op consent, legal. Where as, as far as I know, Lizardmen are still at 2. I didn't fully browse their magic gear list, I'm not sure if they even get one, but given how limited ours was even by lasts editions standards I'm sure if they do that's another area in specialized or very large games they'll be like the other new books.

(Mind you, I think the power creep of more race based magic item choices and special characters IS good, I just think it results in some very old books being perhaps more dated then they should and forces certain armies to often have identical magic item lists because they have such few choices, virtually all players share the same picks without some fluff reason to do otherwise).

Perhapse the biggest problem the new army book raises for Lizardmen is the ability for a Tzeench list to out magic you...or anyone else really. The ability for their core troops (horrors) to count as a lvl 1,2 or 3 wizard opens frightening possibilities. I drew up a list from memory (I've studied the new book) that for roughly 1500 points could have 5 or 6 lvl 2wizards (horrors and Tzeench Heralds combined). At 2000 points you could have 6 to 7 lvl 2 wizards and one lvl 4 wizard + bound spells. That alone creates enough powerdice to overcome the strongest of magical defenses and that is not even considering the use of their power vortext spell which can create D3 more power dice for the caster. The other dangerous ability that Tzeench will have against magic Lizard armies is the spell that lets them copy one of your spells and cast it as a bound spell...so they can basically uses any spell you can + their own lore that you can't.

Of course its not all one sided, the lists I mentioned would be extremely min/maxed and would have glaring weaknesses in CC. Also while Tzeench casters can be ultra powerful wizards, I dont think they could individually stack up against a second or first gen Slann. Tzeench only really gets scary when you consider the aggregate effect of ALL the casting and wizards they can bring to the table.

As always there are counters and tactical options to beat any sort of combination. People always freak out when new armies come out, then 3 months later its just "oh them? well if you do such and such you can beat them"

Perhapse the biggest problem the new army book raises for Lizardmen is the ability for a Tzeench list to out magic you...or anyone else really. The ability for their core troops (horrors) to count as a lvl 1,2 or 3 wizard opens frightening possibilities. I drew up a list from memory (I've studied the new book) that for roughly 1500 points could have 5 or 6 lvl 2wizards (horrors and Tzeench Heralds combined). At 2000 points you could have 6 to 7 lvl 2 wizards and one lvl 4 wizard + bound spells. That alone creates enough powerdice to overcome the strongest of magical defenses and that is not even considering the use of their power vortext spell which can create D3 more power dice for the caster. The other dangerous ability that Tzeench will have against magic Lizard armies is the spell that lets them copy one of your spells and cast it as a bound spell...so they can basically uses any spell you can + their own lore that you can't.

Of course its not all one sided, the lists I mentioned would be extremely min/maxed and would have glaring weaknesses in CC. Also while Tzeench casters can be ultra powerful wizards, I dont think they could individually stack up against a second or first gen Slann. Tzeench only really gets scary when you consider the aggregate effect of ALL the casting and wizards they can bring to the table.

As always there are counters and tactical options to beat any sort of combination. People always freak out when new armies come out, then 3 months later its just "oh them? well if you do such and such you can beat them"

LOL yeah. My thought to them had been "Wow, that's rough... but I bet they'd hate my Kroq-Gar list!!!".

Assuming they don't wipe me in magic phase 1, maybe 2 they get... well I don't know what Daemon tastes like, but Grymloq and his like 15+ Cold One buddies in that list would be finding out. Num Num time my little lizzie mounts!!!

Of course, because I don't generally believe in playing knowing your opponents list... it's entirely possible I'd face it with my infantry heavy, magic less set up, and I sorta admit that prospect scares the daylights out of me. No Slann for antimagic, limited fast troops, those could be the magic phases from hell.

I think my biggest fear though is Nurgle or Khorne. I always thought he was the roughest SoC style list, and I just think he got rougher now. I mean... that's a ton of Ward 5+, T4+, multiwound, etc models that cause Fear. However perk... at least they aren't likely to outnumber all that often.

Khorne. Eh, he's Khorne. Can counter a good part of Lizardmen magic, and in combat, point for point he can honestly face a Lizardman army and know that he's probably superior. Or at least it's close enough he doesn't have to treat us like his melee betters.

I think the fact that Khorne daemons dont have frenzy is a double edged sword. I can see why they did it as a Khorne player would just deploy and hope for the best. This does mean that you cant use a skink unit to remove half of his army. Its also not very fluffy at all.

The Tzeentch lore seems pretty nasty. Gleam Magic is a spell that can cast your best sepll on you as a bound spell. AND you would have already used dice to try and dispell the Gleam Magic spell. It basically adds another spell to his arsenal. Saying that fluff wise Tzeentch should be the best in the game, which it wasnt before.

Im not sure about all the special characters. They've started doing it this edition and I dont know why. I always view someone who uses special characters as unoriginal as they cant make up their own character.

They seem to be pretty nasty, and the models look sweet. I just think its stupid that they havent done plastic Plaguebearers and Horrors meaning the boxed set is only Khorne and Slaanesh.

It also seems pretty unfluffy that Khorne and Slaanesh (worst enemies) would buddy up to fight. Just seems weird.

I think the fact that Khorne daemons dont have frenzy is a double edged sword. I can see why they did it as a Khorne player would just deploy and hope for the best. This does mean that you cant use a skink unit to remove half of his army. Its also not very fluffy at all.

That change REALLY upset me.

I felt something like a "stupidity" style roll for Frenzy would have made much more sense and helped across the board in the game... IE even frenzied you can leadership roll to go the right way. However to totally remove it from the one army and one unit type that is supposed to be the mystical EMBODIEMENT of the whole concept of Frenzy... especially for their point cost and the rest of their stat line.

It just seemed like a kind of simple minded solution. Why not some rule like if you're within X range of a Lord/Hero of Khorne you can channel your rage and not be controlled by Frenzy? Or the leadership roll like those of us who have Stupidity based units face? But no... instead, to the one army that SHOULD be Frenzied, Khorne Daemons, they take it away. Shame on GW Devs for not actually thinking about the problem but overcorrecting with the first solution that came to mind.

However at this point it's across the board in this ed. of WFB and 40k, so I'm dealing.

I just don't like to see such huge tactical issues as dealing with superior frenzied opponents dummied down for simplilicity, ESPECIALLY when it's only Frenzied that gets that, And it's only one Army, and it's the one army that should have most stayed Frenzied and not just gotten a blanket +1 Attack.

Because LIZARDMEN are supposed to be the Army that get the blanket +1 attack, yet don't qualify as Frenzied, because we're Cold Blooded.

NOT Khorne, which is supposed to be the embodiement of traditional Frenzy.

So do they now get to be Init 1 or 2 as well? Will we be recieving 5+ ward saves? Because looking at the Khorne rules now, all they did was apply the Lizardman core stat idea, and stick it on a Daemon.

Lame Solution.