Gees guys, am I the only one!?

[timk1111]

Gday,

Well, so far I've had 2 people give a damn about our LO Beasts tactica, and not a single person helping with any of the writing, bar Frozencore when he started it, and myself....

Now I realise why Frozencore stopped bothering. Turns out very few people care.

So there's what, 3 or 4 people at Librarium that play Beasts then?

This tactica is a large project. It's one that I could finish myself, but then, I'm not writting the damn thing for me, and I've basicly just lost all motivation to do it, to be honest, especially since I've gotten no help, since I asked for it, on writting any articles.

R.I.P. Beasts @ LO

[Sammy the Squib]

Don't be too disheartened mate. Other races tacticas have fallen by the wayside (lizards, TK)

The wood elf one took a year and a lot of hard work from people. It really is something special :)

[Munch]

Lets face it the people who read the taticka are noobs and as noobs are unable to help you write it I like that fact that when I start a new army there a fair chance that a can read a comprensive taticka before I even buy a model for instance the Eldar taticka really helped me know what I wonted for my army so I guess what I am saying is keep going with mate.

[Binz]

Hey,

I have been following this tactica closely as i have just started collecting beastman units (originally for my hordes of chaos army.... but we will see what happens later on in the year) and i would like to contribute but all i have is a brayshaman and a beast herd - which havnt been used in a game yet. So my advice will suck :P

But just letting you know there is one more person following up what you are trying to do....

[kbolster12345]

Give me a couple months and I will start working on the Doombull stuff. As stated I have played OK over a year and while there are major differences I think I will get the knack of it after a while. i don't plan on converting/painting any untill I figure out what mark to give them so I will be able to dable in that arena as well.

so thanks for the tactica and all your work I do appreciate what you have written. I do have to say that the point of this post is a little lost on me though. Are you looking for attention, praise and what ever or do you want help with it? You have a great opportunity to shape some people's WHFB experience or their experience with BoC and your backing down from the challenge. It's too bad. Bruce Lee once said that the only way you can truly KNOW someone is through battle. What he meant is how they perform under pressure. When faced with something I often ask myself what does this say about me. Perhaps you should do the same.

I had more but I just deleted it.

[Phoenix]

Seriously, dont worry about it Tim. There are people who care (Me included! :)) But at the same time, the Degree and all that kinda gets in the way a bit :P

There are plenty of Beasts Players out there, and i think if we just carry on as we are, giving fantastic Army replies, and general Beasts support, then i think we can call that a good job :)

[timk1111]

Thankyou.

Im sorry for the knee-jerk reaction.

I'll start working on it tonight.

Tim

[Phoenix]

Thankyou.

Im sorry for the knee-jerk reaction.

I'll start working on it tonight.

Tim

Start work on a Tactica? Well, if you want to put in the dedication, then thats awesome :) Feel free to ask for opinions and other views etc, ill be happy to chip in. You willing to come to LO chat? Would be good to see you there Tim, i miss Beast chat...

[frozencore]

I'm Back! Sorry for my long absence, guys. I had a bunch of real life and work related things to take care of for the past few months.

On the topic, I was a bit disheartened about the general lack of support from the community. I felt that I was pretty must just chugging away by myself. On that note I have quite a few half-completed topics that I just never got around to finishing. If people want them I will finish them up, but in general it didn't seem like anyone really cared but me.

[kbolster12345]

I'm Back! Sorry for my long absence, guys. I had a bunch of real life and work related things to take care of for the past few months.

On the topic, I was a bit disheartened about the general lack of support from the community. I felt that I was pretty must just chugging away by myself. On that note I have quite a few half-completed topics that I just never got around to finishing. If people want them I will finish them up, but in general it didn't seem like anyone really cared but me.


Lets see them. I would be more supportive but I have zero experience playing Beastmen and almost none playing against them. I didn't get assembled what I needed to in order to play with them this weekend but I should in the next week or two.

[timk1111]

I'm Back! Sorry for my long absence, guys. I had a bunch of real life and work related things to take care of for the past few months.

On the topic, I was a bit disheartened about the general lack of support from the community. I felt that I was pretty must just chugging away by myself. On that note I have quite a few half-completed topics that I just never got around to finishing. If people want them I will finish them up, but in general it didn't seem like anyone really cared but me.


Definately get those articles up, Frozencore! There is now a stickied tactica thread, so feel free to post into that. Since you were away, I also duplicated the post in the Tactica forum, simply so I could edit it myself (just didn't know where you went, sorry!)

I'll link up any article you write to the main Tactica, no sweat! So just get them up.....

Tim

[EricU]

Hey although I'm a newbie with Beasts of Chaos I would Love to help you out, just got to get a few games under my belt. Also my friend has to send his codex to me so that might take a few days or so but I would love to help out.

Also Thanks the tatica helped me understand a lot about Beasts and I most likely going to play beasts of chaos cause of that.

[timk1111]

No worries. Most of it has been done by Frozencore at this stage, so thank him :)

I'd love to keep going with this...but knowing that they'll be re-done soonish, I've kinda shelved my Beasts for the short term, in favour of my Daemons. Maybe after my next tourny, I'll pick 'em back up, but for now, I'l be a little quiet.

I'll see what I can do, though.

If you'd love to help, just post up an article on somethine that hasn't been done in the stickied thread, no worries at all!

Tim

[daelrog]

I actually just read the beastman tactica today. It looks great and it helps people who will be playing with, and against them. I'm even considering starting a minotaur army within the next year or so, but as was said, they're about to be redone. (Next Spring, right?) Regardless, take your time with the tactica. If it's just not flowing with you, take a break. What is already posted up looks to be pure gold though, so all of you guys working on it keep up the good work!

[Angry Armadillo]

I would give my help but all that my Beasts fight are lizardmen because my friend is the only one who plays Fantasy in our area, so I would help you out on this, not sure how much help i will be, but i will try.

[Pascall]

I really appreciate the tactica so far, keep it up!

[Soylent Robot]

I've wrote the first draft of a tactical for Morghur if you're interested. Where do i post it?

[ArchonFarseerGuy]

I imagine here (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/beasts-chaos/119030-beasts-chaos-tactica-take-2-a.html)

-AFG//

[Soylent Robot]

Thanks! ^^

[buckero0]

to be honest I don't think the BoC is a playable army. They have the worst leadership, they have the poor herd and unruly rules. GW cut the last legs they had under them by taking away the HoC and demons books. There are so many armies out there that they have a 5% chance of staying on the board against (HE, DE, Demons, VC, etc) and the rest of the armies still give you a rough time (Dwarven anvil/oathstones anyone?) The army is dead and has been for years. With all the new armies that have come out in the last year, I really think BoC should be frozen for a while in the deepfreeze and then maybe thawed out later if they get around to writing a book for it. That's the main reason I think you're having trouble getting writers for your tactica.

As far as the Lizardman tactica, the new book is coming out in less than 6 months. I don't see the point in writing a tactica that will be out of date so soon.

[Soylent Robot]

You could say the same for the daemonhunters & witchhunters in 40k, but i know people who play them and can play them very well. because its an old army doesnt mean it will always lose, skaven are pretty old too, and due to this many players may be unfamiliar with how it works

i think beasts of chaos is a very characterful and strong army, you just have to use it right

[buckero0]

not to argue too much, and as I post this, I do so because I actually love the beastmen idea and it was one of my favorite armies to play. 40k books and WHFB don't mix and don't relate as they are completely different game systems. I play daemonhunters and there really is no comparison for the book writing between game systems and their age. Skaven is also not a good comparison because when it was written, it was the army list that was the most easily abused and powergamed (and still is despite its age, just some other books are newer and their power amped up so it doesn't look so bad) Skaven still has cheap, good core troops, good leadership, awesome, abusive magic, some of the best shooting in the game and the best tunnellers, etc. I could go on and on. There was 1 or 2 bad units in the entire book and there was never a reason to take them. So it's still a good book. Beasts of Chaos is the complete opposite. It was designed with serious weaknesses from the start. 7th edition and the serious power creep plus the chaos overhaul have destroyed the book in my opinion. Can you still win games with it? Yes. Is it fun anymore? not really. A basic BoC list against a basic (not overpowered) Deamons list or even High Elves or VC list doesn't really have a chance. Yes you may roll reallly well, and get lucky and squeeze out a draw or something, but the chances of it are super slim.

BoC have no shooting, poor unarmored, unranked core. We have marginal magic items and magic overall. We have, hands down, the worst leadership in the game and have to take leadership tests constantly.

The one thing we do have is chariots that are relatively cheap. We have minotaurs and that's about it. You could play a doombull army, but anytime you have to throw out 75% of the armybook just to be competative then there is something wrong. Even with the rewrite in 7th edition, there could be some serious problems overall and it will probably continue to be one of the weaker books, but right now, it's just not that fun to play a normal, balanced list, and that's a problem.

Believe me, I wish it was different, but I sold my army as soon as I heard the ASF HE rumors because I knew where GW was headed. Deamons and VC and Chaos are tons worse. I'll wait till they redo the book (2010 or whenever)

[Soylent Robot]

skaven are an overpowered army?

everyone ive played against who uses them must be an idiot, they always lose >_>

[buckero0]

hmm, I'm sorry. :handshake: you have to play idiots. :secret:

[Soylent Robot]

i know, its terrible >_< i've almost started giving them pointers on how to play their army while im playing against them, or purposefully making suicidal charges to make things interesting :secret:

[buckero0]

I'll totally lose to a newb sometimes just because I'll tell him "don't charge there, charge here (into my flank)" or because I roll so terrible. If I could roll average on my dice, I'd win a lot more games.

Say, speaking of Beasts of Chaos, have you seen the new warriors of chaos book? It has so many beasts in it, that I worry about what will be left for the beasts when they do right the book. WoC have hounds, ogres, dragon ogres and a shaggoth, Troll king and chaos trolls or something and giants and a demon prince. Do you think we'll get the choice between chaos ogres and minotaurs still? Will we have hounds or similar? All of there guys can be marked, so I wonder if we'll be able to mark our herds?

I think they even stole some of our old magic items and gave them to the warriors.

[Soylent Robot]

ive notcied that. hopefully beasts will get ogres n trolls n shaggoths too, and hopefully some new, unique monsters, ike some kinda of mega-spawn or a monster which is usually a ridden mount, but unridden and mutated

[Zombie_Madness]

I have been reading the tactica but because ive only played 3 or 4 games with the beastmen i started collecting about 3 months ago i dont really know many tactics yet and have more just been playing on luck and nothing else.

[frozencore]

Beasts of Chaos does still work, even against the newer books. I have been playing in a GW campaign with my Beasts of Chaos army for about two months now and I am tied for first place with a store worker who is using Daemons of Chaos. There are lots of different armies running around (the full gambit excluding Bretts and Warriors), and of course the newer stuff like High Elves, Vampire Counts, and Dark Elves too. Despite losing my first game (which I attribute to having played the new VC too much and becoming sloppy), I have beaten them all and now have 7 massacres in a row. I even killed the Hydra that had been invincible before my game with him.

I had put my Beasts aside for a while after the VC book came out, but I dusted them off for this campaign just to prove that I could still do it. It hasn't been easy every game, that is for sure. I won't lie, they certainly take more skill to use than the more recent lists, but I have found that you become a better general when you don't have the fancy rules to fall back on. It can be done, they do still work. At the start of them campaign people who just looked at my army book thought I would be a push over, now going into the last week those same people are afraid to challenge me.

I have looked over the new Warriors of Chaos book and it does concern me....a lot. It seems like many of our units are being used in the new book, and the statline on those mortals is just short of insane. I will probably put my Beasts back on the shelf in search of greener pastures when the campaign is over, but who knows what I will do in a month or so when the next campaign comes around.

I have been enjoying myself this campaign. Some days I will be sitting at the painting bar and people will come up and say "Those beastmen look really nice, too bad their rules are so terrible." I will just smile and point at the leader board; the look on their face is priceless.

[buckero0]

I'd love to see your list frozencore. Like I said, there are a few max/min builds out there, but a balanced BoC army doesn't stand a chance against any of the newer armies that have come out this year (they have a better chance against DE and WoC maybe) but BoC has no way of dealing with shooting, psychology, ranked units and even magic to a degree (if you go magic heavy, then your leadership takes a heavy toll) Having to take Unruly tests for each of your beast herds is also a liability because you may not be able to even control them (which is usually where your expensive characters go).

[noone]

I admit compared to some of the other armies BoC can seem a bit sub-par but have people forgotten about morghur? You're still able to take all the "normal" choices, you just also have to include about 30 hounds.

I'm not saying morghur is the answer to all our woes but a morghur army is very competitive and for some can be labelled as 'abusive'. However having to resort to using a special character to win games doesn't feel right :(.

[frozencore]

I completely agree that the beasts of chaos army has ridiculously huge glaring flaws that need to be addressed in the new book. While I wouldn't take it to a tournament and expect to win every game do to the amount of cheese that goes on there, the flaws can be lessened by a good magic phase.

I have a few major points that might help.

I run a magic heavy army in all 3 point levels we commonly play at in the shop (500 warband, 1000, 2250 ). I have found that armies need to play in 3 phases of the game to be competitive, any less and you don't have enough ways of dealing with problems your enemy might throw at you, any more and you might be too watered down to be effective enough in any given phase. For beasts this is especially true as they don't have the over the top rules the more recent books have to fall back on. Use bear's anger on any unit champ of character in combat that round, bouncing around the buffs from turn to turn where they need to be. Magic missile fast cav, fliers, and other things that might give you trouble like terror causers. skirmish movement and 360 line of sight for spells is super powerful, abuse it if they leave you now choice in those higher point games (or if the person is a douche and brings ethereal units or a hydra to a warband, yeah they both happened and I beat them anyway).

Take your time when you set up charges. In my recent game against high elves over half my army didn't charge until turn 6. I just kept moving him into position picking off units slowly until I saw my opening. Almost everything charged on the last turn, breaking him and leaving whatever I didn't chase down unable to rally.

Ambush isn't that amazing. More often than not I don't even bother with ambushing. Unless they have some serious war machine that I need to get rid of I put everything on the board. Ambushing leaves small low leadership units right next to the board edge to run away when they become panicked. Against some opponents I would rather have those extra small units running with the rest of my army so they can bait, flank and screen.

Don't fight their whole army. You have skirmish maneuverability and fast moving units. often moving laterally or diagonally is best. Pick a weak side of the board and attack it with just about everything. This leaves your army to fight half of his army at a time. If you leave a unit of hard hitter in the middle with some support by cheap units you can hold off the rest of his armies advance either by threatening with a bait flee and a charge with the heavy hitter or by sacrificing to make him move out of position long enough for you to finish off what you are attacking. After half his army is gone you can either just avoid him the best you can denying him the ability to catch up, or take on the rest of the army.

You don't have to kill everything. Grave guard with a regen banner got you down? Ignore it. Kill everything else and you will still win. The same goes for any other unit of doom, you can move out of the way and fight what you know you can kill. Of course this isn't always the case, like with dragons or steam tanks. Most armies would try and shoot them, but that's what you have spells for. Beast Cowers, magic missiles, and other things should give you some defense against them(just a wound or two might make someone worried about using them willy nilly). Orange fire and bears anger together also works really well should you actually face them in combat.

Combo charge fear causers. Let's be honest our leadership isn't great, you will fail a little less than half the time. By setting yourself up so you have multiple units charging a flank you can mitigate a poor roll by having two chances to make it. It isn't perfect, and Vampires are probably the hardest army for beasts to take down. For deamons and undead hit them in the flanks. You might not deny ranks with your herds, but you limit the number of attacks back at you, and get the extra +1 CR for instability/crumble. You won't win in the first round, but you should win eventually.

I'm getting rather long winded, and the "few" points are starting to become too many, so I will stop there.

I change things from game to game, especially at 2250, but here is a general outline.
500 Point warband
Bray Shaman Level 2, Bray staff, Chaos Armor
Beast Herd 5 Gors, 6 Ungors, Full command
Beast Herd 5 Gors, 6 Ungors, Full command
4 Warhounds
4 Warhounds
3 Minotaurs Great Weapons

1000 Point list
Bray Shaman Level 2, Chaos Armor, Braystaff, Dispel Scroll
Bray Shaman Level 2, Staff of Darkoth
Beast Herd 8 Gors, 12 Ungors, Full Command
Beast Herd 8 Gors, 12 Ungors, Full Command
Beast Herd 5 Gors, 5 Ungors
Beast Herd 5 Gors, 5 Ungors
Tuskgor Chariot
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
4 Minotaurs Great Weapons

2250 Point list
Beastlord Mark of Tzeentch, Heavy Armor, Shield, Pelt of Dark Young
Wargor Gore Banner, Heavy Armor, Shield
Bray Shaman Level 2, Chaos Armor, Braystaff, Dispel Scroll
Bray Shaman Level 2, Staff of Darkoth
Beast Herd 8 Gors, 12 Ungors, Full Command
Beast Herd 9 Gors, 12 Ungors, Full Command
Beast Herd 9 Gors, 12 Ungors, Full Command
Beast Herd 6 Gors, 6 Ungors, Foe Render, Musician
Beast Herd 6 Gors, 6 Ungors, Foe Render, Musician
Beast Herd 5 Gors, 5 Ungors
Beast Herd 5 Gors, 5 Ungors
Tuskgor Chariot Mark of Tzeentch
Tuskgor Chariot Mark of Tzeentch
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
6 Centigors Shields, Gorehoof, Musician
4 Minotaurs Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapons
4 Minotaurs Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapons

Italicized things are what I switch out most often, but the 14 powerdice has been pretty successful, despite loosing Mark Undivided's reroll psycology. I find the BSB is pretty easy to kill, but he helps out on the way over immeasurably so I leave him in until I can find something better. I often mess with him or drop warhound units to get an additional dispel scroll.

[Cambian]

I will offer something up in a few months. Right now, I am just getting pummeled with my Beasts. Dwarfs, Undead, Lizardmen, Chaos have all beat me to hell.

Some of it is Army build, some of it is me not knowing how to play the Beasts. I am reading, watching and hopefully I can offer something intelligent later.

Thanks for all of the info on the site! It has got me thinking alot!

Cambian

[Magus_Arts]

frozencore's last reply should be part of the Tactica. I learned at least as much if not more reading that than I did the Tactica. That's not to say the info already compiled in the tactica isn't helpful. But, personally the actual battle strategy is more important than analyzing individual units and magic items.

I'm new to WHFB and BoC are my first army (some 40k experience). In the two games I've played I got whooped, but I felt that had my strategy bennefited from some experience I would have fared much better.

I think the reason we're seeing beast units in the new books coming out is because they want each Chaos army book to be self contained. So I expect to see all of our same units (plus some) in the new BoC book.

[frozencore]

I am glad it helped...and well, those kinds of things were GOING to be part of the tactica when I first started it a year ago. I ended up stopping to due to the time it took and the general lack of interest from the beast community, as there were only 3 or 4 of us back then. Heck, I got more comments from people who DIDN'T play BoC, than those who did.

Now that there has been a sudden surge of Beast players (for no reason I can understand), I might take up the mantle once more. My only hang up is the fact that our book is getting updated next year (supposedly), but the core tactics should still be sound.

[coldblooded3k]

One thing that delays BoC's new army book is the sole fact that, specially when compared too Hordes(now warriors) it doesn't sell as much. Its the same issue with Dark Eldar for 40k, a cool army, but not as much support.


Even though they haven't even annouced BoC coming soon(i've read its either Lizards or Tomb Kings, blech) I'm gathering funds for a Beasts of Chaos army(one of the least played, if NOT the least played army) i wanna start with a warrior a shaman, and 2-3 herds depending on size. I find the BoC too be one of my 2 Fav Fantasy armies, i'm new too Fantasy, and i'll admit, the reason i went O&G to start with is because i've been Orks in 40k for.... friggin forever it seems.

Go too Ebay, theres NO BoC stuff too find, theres almost no support for it it seems. I'm gonna buy stuff from gw and i hope that anyone who finds them intresting will still do so even though they are "below par" showing a intrest will eventually see BoC anew i believe.

I see Frozencores army list, and as cool as it is too see the great beastmen slap others around, the lack of viable lists is another turn off for new beasties too follow up. I for one want good magic, but i want too have a warrior feel too it as well, i've always had a warrior heart in games like this and i can hoestly say that i'll experiment with different builds until i can find a warrior way with BoC, for those who don't think i'll find it, i don't care its what i want too do.

Honestly i see your list frozen and i'm curious as too how the advatages too keeping your herds small serves specially when compared too larger ones (i was originally gonna run 20+ strong herds) also how doo ungors and Gors stack up when attacking, can you put 5 gors with Weapons in front, and 5 ungors with spears in the second row(for 5 more attacks).

I guess this turned into a small ramble too go with a statement but its what it seems too be like. In the end people, if you find BoC too be awsome(fuggin minotaurs and goatmen? awsome here :dance:) Play them, find a way too make them work like frozen, make your friends jealous that they lose too a "underpowered army", and hell make them buy a few Beasts of their own lol. If for example GW sells an adverage of 10 BoC army books a month, and for a few months it turns into 100 a month they might just go "hmmm lets get on that..."

GW is a business first and foremost, and if a certain model car doesn't sell, they aren't going too continue it.

[frozencore]

Well the Beasts and Dark Eldar suffer from the same problem (I'm actually thinking of starting a DE army....I am a glutton for punishment). The books are old and the lists are unsupported so people don't buy them, GW doesn't update them because they aren't selling well, people don't buy them because they are unsupported, GW doesn't support them because they don't sell... you get the idea.

I have noticed the Ebay problem as well, and anything you ever find on their is the old metal models. Another reason why people shy away from Beasts is because they are the most expensive army to play. There is no Battalion box to save money with, your basic troops cost very few points and come in the wrong numbers per box, and everything else is metal.

To answer your question about herd size, I find it is good to have a mix of small and large units. with a 40k ork background 20 might seem small, but in fantasy 20 is a decent size for a large unit. Most units in the game will be 20 strong. Anything bigger than 20 and you won't be getting rank bonus anyway because you only get up to 2. Beasts really rely on movement and getting the charge more than anything else so having a bunch of smaller herds helps to outmaneuver your opponent and since you are combo-charging with many units at once you don't need as many numbers in one unit is you have a lot in them all put together. Small units are also a very small investment when it comes to points cost. You come from 40k where you can't flee if someone charges you, or where it might seem like a horrible idea to let someone kill one of your own units. If I lose a small beast herd so I can charge them back next turn and wipe their big expensive unit it is a trade-off I am willing to pay. Those small herds are manouverable and can put my larger herds and hard hitting units in position to win the game.

Take a look through the beast book, the Gors do indeed go in front with the Ungors behind them. This is another good reason for small units as the Ungors in the back can fight with spears if they are in the second rank. Any more Gors than that and you might not get any Ungors able to attack if you need them.

I really can't stress the "3 phase rule" enough. It might be a tough concept to keep in mind since you are transitioning from a game where it doesn't matter as much (in fact 40k armies are better when they only focus on a single aspect of the game) but it really helps to have a balance to deal with threats. It would be like having a 40k list with no anti-tank, you might be fine some times, but more often than not you won't have the tools you need. Beast casters are the most warrior casters of all when you put bear's anger on them, you don't get much "fightier" than 5 S5 attacks! Even without bears anger they are still T4, and have two attacks with a great weapon. Those beastmen sure feel like a bunch of brute warriors, they rely on killing things in close combat, and nothing makes me happier than when they do.

Think like a beastman when you play, be canny and sneaky(skirmish movement), and don't charge unless you know you will win(leadership 7). Then when everything is going your way strike with as many things as you can(multiple attacks and units).

This should get you started a little bit, and if you have any more questions just let me know.

[coldblooded3k]

i'll take the 3 phase rule too heart, but i still kinda wish that if you didn't want too dominate the magic attack phase(tanks) you could use around half your total characters for shamans and still at least dominate the magic phase in defense(anti tank) as it doesn't look like that's possible, i don't know yet, lol, i'm still gonna have at least my wargor (its a preference thing man!)

If i have too i'll get my wargor and just throw the rest of my champs as shamans
(i was gonna grab a SB but i don't know how well the work with alot of your army spread out all over the place) too remain "competitive"

[frozencore]

I won't say wargors are terrible, but when you consider that a unit champ has essentially the same stats, they don't add very much.

In my analogy the shamans are the anti-tank. The magic missiles and other nifty tricks are used to defend you against nasty or fast things people might use against you. Since beastmen lack shooting they need some way to deal with those threats. There are certain fights you just cannot win, or simply don't want to fight, or don't want to deal with (like fast cavalry). Those things can ruin your plans, so you need something to stop the enemy, and the best answer I have found is a solid magic phase.

[coldblooded3k]

i'll just buy a wargor model and use him as a herd champ then :soldier: . I didn't know beastmen had NO shooting, then again dwarfs have no horsies =P. i'll get a couple brayshamans and poke threw the 3 skills they have, which 3 lores do they get acess too and should i advoid any of them or are they all pretty useful in some way

[frozencore]

I use wargor models for my shamans, so I get the best of both worlds. Lore of Beasts is probably the best lore, as it helps mitigate BoC flaws the most.

Check my post here (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/1058133-post5.html)

Lore of Shadow (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/1062905-post6.html)

Lore of Death (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/1064689-post7.html)

I would recommend sticking with the main 3 right off the bat, as you will probably be playing small-point games and the marks can get expensive. On the other hand, if you really want a WARGOR wargor, you can give him the mark of tzeentch and he becomes a caster and a fighter. Pretty nifty, but it is rather expensive in comparison to the super cheap shamans, though oddly enough not much more expensive than elf casters(135 for a level 2 high elf mage with only s3 t3 and 1 attack, 140 for a level two tzeentch wargor with s4 t4 and 3 attacks). The mark of tzeentch really come into its own when put on a beastlord, he is a level 4 caster at approximately the same price as any other armies level 4 (or even cheaper) is a pretty decent fighter (and better than any other caster) and has a high leadership for beasts.

[coldblooded3k]

hahaha the only problem there is i detest the raven god, i guess i make make him look Nurglish and claim hes a "nurgle mage" (mark of T), i ahve seen that in army builder, it was intresting, but yes i also saw the cost, i think in a 2k game for a Beastlord that mark is like, 140 points, but then again he turns into a level 4 caster as well O_o