Hi,
i am only relaying the info (from bell of lost souls),


On this Sunday we have word that the upcoming White Dwarf contains quite a gem. A new article titled Liber Apocalypta makes it appearance and give us background of the Armageddon wars and the following 3 Apocalypse datasheets:


Angron, Deamon-Primarch of the World Eaters; Angron and up to a dozen Bloodthirsters ~Chew on that Grey Knights!
Ork Submersible
Blood Angel Thunderhawk Assault Force; 3 Thunderhawks, Dante and a large entourage of marines ~Giving the Tau Manta Strike Force a run for its money is the $$$ department.


Liber Apocalypta is said to be an ongoing column, so perhaps this is the first example of Rick Priestly's recent comments regarding the Design Studio taking more control of White Dwarf. I hope so.

~I for one am taken aback that after 20 years we finally have real solid GW rules for a Primarch on the tabletop. I guess if any of them are justified its the Daemon-Primarchs as they really can't be "killed" in the standard sense. At least now we have a baseline of what they looklike stat and ability-wise.


http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/boom_boom1000/angron-001.jpg

Khorne be praised! The Primarch returns to the field of battle!

I'll have to dust off my World Eaters for Apocalypse. There are skulls to reap beneath the banner of the World Eaters.

Hahah, a perfect execuse to make a ork submarine ^_^

I wonder if the model (if one gets made) will be at all faithful to his Epic incarnation of many years ago...

Sorry fellow Khorne warriors, but Angrons rules and stats are very very VERY poor for a Primarch who is also a Daemon now.

You know he's about 2 steps up from a normal DP, and in many ways comparible(and even better) than a bloodthirster....but its true...for what he's supposed to be, he's kinda wimpy. That said it was kinda expected.

Problem with putting things like primarchs in the game is you either have to utterly break them, or water them down. Really though I was hoping they could just put him on the same level as Angrath...I mean really he's meant to be apocalypse only anyway.

I believe there is a similar thread running in the Chaos Space Marine forums.
And yes, we're all rather disappointed by the stat line.

Though hopefully this will start a wave of new rules for all the remaining Primarchs. Meaning we could see the return of Leman Russ!

One argument that I made at the local store when we were looking at this is that perhaps this is Angron's lesser form. It takes a lot of energy for a Demon to manifest itself outside the Warp, yeah? Perhaps this is "not a lot of energy" Angron. If it's well received (or highly criticized), they'll make a stronger, 1000 point version.

This is the first Primarch we've had rules for in a loooong time (20 years, yeah? I know Russ used to have rules and even a model, but that was back in the Rogue Trader days). It might take a couple tries to get it right.

:beer::beer:

They would have done mouch worse than to use the Chaos Primarchs rules from the B&C website..

You mean like this,

taken from the B&C forums, posted by,

Interregatorchaplain

still new here, no clue how to use functions
anyway here is daemon primarch Lorgar
Lorgar-------340 points
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
7, 5, 6, 5, 7 , 5 , 4 ,10 , 2+
fearless
4+ invulnerable save
Fury of chaos:
Lorgar has the power of the gods on his side, he causes a -2 morale modifier to any enemy unit within 12"
Psyker beacon:
On his trusted homeworld he has one hundred psykers focused on his light, should he be reduced to one wound he must leave the battle, counted as a casualty for Victory points purposes
Scythe of fury:
Gifted to Lorgar by Nurgle himself, Lorgar carries a scythe that wounds on a 3+, counted as a force weapon
Tendrils of fear:
Any enemy within two inches of Lorgar must take a Morale test with no modifiers. Should it fail it stands transfixed until lorgar leaves the area

So, hows that for a slice of fried gold eh?


If these rules were published by G.W then everyone would be in an uproar!

One argument that I made at the local store when we were looking at this is that perhaps this is Angron's lesser form. It takes a lot of energy for a Demon to manifest itself outside the Warp, yeah? Perhaps this is "not a lot of energy" Angron. If it's well received (or highly criticized), they'll make a stronger, 1000 point version.


That would have a precedent for GW. The Necrons' C'Tan are both in-game in powered-down forms. A system-sized sentient energy wave would be real hard to model, after all.

You mean like this,

taken from the B&C forums, posted by,


If these rules were published by G.W then everyone would be in an uproar!


I don;t think that this is one of the "official" ones - there is a massive amount of documentation, been a LONG time since myself and Guillermo started the process, but the Primarchs were pretty well balanced..

I haven’t seen the ‘official’ G.W rules yet so I withhold judgment of them till I do.
Fan made rules have their time and place in private gaming clubs and such, but
I would not be so keen to play against someone who wanted use a Primarch with homemade rules (no matter how balanced they seem).

I also wonder if this is just the first of many, maybe G.W will grace us with more rules for the Primarch’s, maybe even do rules for Horus?

GW rules for certain units are quite often not nearly subject to the level of balance or "crafting" that home-made ones are, especially the Primarch rules on B&C, which are subjet to a good 5-6 years of iterative development. However, I agree, I'll resevre judgement until I see the rules for Angron myself..

GW rules for certain units are quite often not nearly subject to the level of balance or "crafting" that home-made ones are, especially the Primarch rules on B&C, which are subjet to a good 5-6 years of iterative development. However, I agree, I'll resevre judgement until I see the rules for Angron myself..


I do not disagree, but using a Primarch is never going to fair.
I play ‘nids so what would I have to counter him? Even my two Tyrants and three carnifexes would not slow a Primarch down.
If they did they my opponent would be unhappy that a Primarch just got squished, and if they didn’t then I would be understandably upset that the meanest, toughest creatures in my combined hive fleets are now greasy stains.

Boomer: If you consider that Primarchs would/are a largely Apocalypse based game idea then I would suggest you use the most overpowered model in the game for its (Incredibly low) points.

The Hierophant...

I'm not quite sure the Hierophant is that broken considering how cheap Imperial titans are in points for so many SD shots.

If they make Primarch rules, even for the normal human-form Primarchs such as the pre-heresy traitors and loyalists, they are going to have to be over the top. We are talking about guys that Grey Knights are mediocre in comparison to. As such, they would have to be insanely powerful to be accurately represented table top. The good thing about Apocalypse is, other races will have things that can deal with them. Bio-Titans, Titans, Gargants, Super-heavy tanks, etc. I hope they do bring in more of the Primarchs, just not for regular 40k.

I'm not quite sure the Hierophant is that broken considering how cheap Imperial titans are in points for so many SD shots.
Not quite sure what you are talking about here, the only cheap titan I see is the Warhound, and in my humble opinion, I do believe that it is hopelessly outclassed by a Hierophant.

Anyway, I do believe that Primarchs would more or less stomp anything that can be fielded at the moment by any army (I am cutting out Necrons, due to the fact that they weren't awake yet, tyranids, because they didnt come until M37, and Tau, because they didnt show til way after the heresy). I think that a fully armed and armored Primarch could destroy Revenants, Warhounds, (quite easily imo) baneblades, and most other things. I think, however, it would be interesting to see how a primarch (loyalist, the traitor ones have additional demon powers) would stand up to, by themselves, the endless swarms of gaunts of a hive fleet (just gaunts). HOW MANY GAUNTS DOES IT TAKE TO KILL A PRIMARCH!?!?!?!

I very much doubt even Primarchs could take on a Titan. And yes, I KNOW Leman Rus did take out a Titan by himself, but I doubt he stepped up to it, punched it, and it fell down, It's much more likely he did it "Luke SkyWalker" style - its the reason Titans have support troops - in the old Space Marine game, if you got enough troops B2B with a Titan, then it was guaranteed as losing...

It's been shown in fluff (and game terms because of the crux terminatus save) that even Terminator suits can stand up to the impact of being flatted by a Titan - as the ground under them is quite often weaker than the suit is (fluff from one of the books I've read where a SW Terminator gets squished by a Titan that is walking through the building he is in - but he stands up afterwards because it just pushes him further into teh rubble)...

Super Heavy battle tanks are dog-meat for a squad of terminators armed with chainfists and wielding two assault cannon (less so in new rules, but still a significant threat), so I don't see that being a problem - you don't leave them unsupported when you have swarms of heavy infantry wielding melta guns, chain fists, melta bombs etc running around.

A fully armed Roboute Gulliman would have a gladius and bolter or the Gauntlets of Ultramar, a fully armoured Russ would have Mjalnar (a Kraken-toothed uber-frostblade) and a bolt pistol, and a couple of Wolves the size of a small transport.

Night Haunter will probably have used Lightning claws, or at least his hands may have been as powerful as lightning claws.

If they did they my opponent would be unhappy that a Primarch just got squished, and if they didn’t then I would be understandably upset that the meanest, toughest creatures in my combined hive fleets are now greasy stains.

Have you ever considered that it can be fun to lose a fun, characterful game? I used some home-cooked Primarch rules against a friend a while back, but stuck him (It was Magnus) in a ridiculously low points game. Magnus wiped the tble, but my friend had a blast just seeing if he could bring the Crimson Cyclops down. Actually, he came kind of close, and that's with Primarchs balanced at about 900 to 1200 points!

There are always things that can kill even a Primarch.

Have you ever considered that it can be fun to lose a fun, characterful game? I used some home-cooked Primarch rules against a friend a while back, but stuck him (It was Magnus) in a ridiculously low points game. Magnus wiped the tble, but my friend had a blast just seeing if he could bring the Crimson Cyclops down. Actually, he came kind of close, and that's with Primarchs balanced at about 900 to 1200 points!

There are always things that can kill even a Primarch.


Losing = fun??? where is the logic in that???? (I jest)
No ofcourse some games are meant just for fun, and playing my ‘nids against a Primarch would be just that. But these kinds of games should be rare, as no one (no matter how light hearted they are about the game) wants to lose every game and for the same reason.

No if only I had access to a Tyranid infected Primarch, then I would be happy………………..

Tyranid infected Primarch... I sense...an opportunity to play the "2 missing primarchs" card, cook up some fun house rules, and make an incredible conversion in one fell swoop!

ABSOLUTELY non-canon, but fun as hell! Do it, do it, do it! X D

I very much doubt even Primarchs could take on a Titan. And yes, I KNOW Leman Rus did take out a Titan by himself, but I doubt he stepped up to it, punched it, and it fell down, It's much more likely he did it "Luke SkyWalker" style - its the reason Titans have support troops - in the old Space Marine game, if you got enough troops B2B with a Titan, then it was guaranteed as losing...

It's been shown in fluff (and game terms because of the crux terminatus save) that even Terminator suits can stand up to the impact of being flatted by a Titan - as the ground under them is quite often weaker than the suit is (fluff from one of the books I've read where a SW Terminator gets squished by a Titan that is walking through the building he is in - but he stands up afterwards because it just pushes him further into teh rubble)...

Super Heavy battle tanks are dog-meat for a squad of terminators armed with chainfists and wielding two assault cannon (less so in new rules, but still a significant threat), so I don't see that being a problem - you don't leave them unsupported when you have swarms of heavy infantry wielding melta guns, chain fists, melta bombs etc running around.

A fully armed Roboute Gulliman would have a gladius and bolter or the Gauntlets of Ultramar, a fully armoured Russ would have Mjalnar (a Kraken-toothed uber-frostblade) and a bolt pistol, and a couple of Wolves the size of a small transport.

Night Haunter will probably have used Lightning claws, or at least his hands may have been as powerful as lightning claws.

Of course, I wasnt trying to insinuate that the primarchs had "pewpew death star laserbeam eyes" type deal, I was just coming from the direction of the fact that over the course of the Great Crusade, the primarchs traveled the width and breadth of the galaxy, fought more or less everything, and were never killed (Horus was an exception). In fact, I do not believe that they ever faced a really challenging threat to their lives until the primarchs started killing eachother.

In fact, I do not believe that they ever faced a really challenging threat to their lives until the primarchs started killing eachother.

Except (once again) for Horus, who would have been killed prior to the Heresy by a Nurgle-possessed Imperial Guard General if not for the intervention of the Chaos gods. Man that guy got beat down a lot!

Except (once again) for Horus, who would have been killed prior to the Heresy by a Nurgle-possessed Imperial Guard General if not for the intervention of the Chaos gods. Man that guy got beat down a lot!

I know, but I mustve forgot to mention it in my quote :doh:. However, imho, I do believe that the whole "Chaos IA commander" thing was a cheapshot to the primarch. Completely out of left field. The primarchs were prepared to kill all sorts of xenos races, but the werent even aware of the existance of Chaos at that point, so it kinda caught them unawares.

1 final thing: I mentioned the primarchs didnt really face any real threats to their lives until they started killing eachother. Well, Horus's disease was invented by a god, and as such, was an extention of that god. Overall, nothing mortal (short of eachother and the Emperor [although, does he count as mortal?]) could touch them. I don't think nurgle counts as mortal :P . I think that even primarchs would have difficulties contending with the will of a god.

Ah, no worries - I wasn't disagreeing with you really, just poking a little fun at 'ol Horus. Don't forget that the possessed General had a weapon designed to kill (at that point) Horus. The whole unstopable force/immovable object thing, metaphorically.