Everyone at the store i go to keeps moaning about the new marines being too hard, but i still think chaos space marines are harder, though the new rules don't apply to me cause i'm Blood Angels :) i just wanna know if anybody else thinks the same

sounds like they don't know what there moaning about, do they give any reasons or examples why there too hard?, or are they just whiners like most people who complain

It's true though, a lot of SM options are pretty good. They were already an awesome list, and they didn't get any worse in the new codex. Assault termies for example, 3+ invulnerable save...

Wrong forum :D

lt

Naturally, Space Marines will be different when the new dex is out (I still haven't read through this thing), but even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to make them TOO hard.

People said the same thing about Eldar. And Chaos. And Orks. This always happens when a new codex comes out. People (both SM players and their opponents) need to get used to it. I guarantee six months from now the whining will die down on this, and we'll be on to griping that ANOTHER new codex (IG? Dark Eldar?) makes its respective army "too hard."

The game is changing. It seems that every time an army is updated it just gets better... which just makes the metagame more interesting!

GW have completely embraced the concept of massive power creep in 40k and FB. I despise it because I think that it does not fit the game and only invokes even more Listhammer than before. IMO GW is slowly replacing tactics on the field with a game where the battle consists of who can max out the most powerful combo on paper.

You say that, but I think there was more potential for beardiness in the 4th edition rules than in the new one. I think it's safe to say that it's always been unsporting players who exploit the lists to be able to field a super-killy army that give each new installment a bad name.

The 5th edition codex is, in certain ways, more balanced. The combat tactics rule makes a lot more sense seeing as no marine worth their salt would stand up to impossible odds and get annihilated for no good reason, plus you have the option of breaking down each 10-man squad into two scoring units for the price of one. You have yourself a balanced, flexible army with tactical diiversity; everything the space marines are supposed to be.

The only gripes I have are the lack of chapter traits, and the fact that you have to have 10 men to a tactical squad in order to use any special weapons.

Space marines is the favorite army of G.W it what makes them all the millions
of pounds each year. Yeah they get great new toys and other cool stuff but it just makes beating all the more satisfying or failing that join yhem and get a space marine army yourself. And it’s not all that great for codex space marines anyway, can they take all jump pack army, no! But Blood Angels can!
Can they take a all terminator army? No! But Dark Angels can!

- Boomer.

I reserve my opinion for them until a later time. But I've hear they are pretty hard from my friends who have more time to play.

I notice that there's a number of extra invulnerable saves compared to the previous codex, which I think is pretty wack. What happen to invulnerable saves being "special"? Now it just ridiculous.

I think the favoritism of GW towards Space Marines is pretty retarded. Company obviously doesn't have it priorities straight. Favoritism is most obvious in that SM's codex always get a complete overhaul while most armies only get partial overhauls. Why not just treat all armies equally for once.

People said the same thing about Eldar. And Chaos. And Orks. This always happens when a new codex comes out. People (both SM players and their opponents) need to get used to it. I guarantee six months from now the whining will die down on this, and we'll be on to griping that ANOTHER new codex (IG? Dark Eldar?) makes its respective army "too hard."

A more accurate statement would have been that IG or Dark Eldar players will be griping about not having everything they wanted and everyone else will be complaining that they're too hard. It seems to me that players tend to lean on the armies they use, and that tends to color which way the griping goes.

I think the favoritism of GW towards Space Marines is pretty retarded. Company obviously doesn't have it priorities straight. Favoritism is most obvious in that SM's codex always get a complete overhaul while most armies only get partial overhauls. Why not just treat all armies equally for once.

Haha no the company has its priorities in perfect order. Space Marines make GW more money than the other choices, so of course they are going to capitalize on that. It sucks if you don't play SMs, but you can't expect a company to not target the market that makes them the most money.

I'll second that last post.

All Ireally know is that every list has turned our to be beatable so far. Even the most broken of the broken still falls down eventually. Why not focus on having fun a bit more? I'm taking a CSM list to the GT this year I have been told by plenty ofolks that it is competitive but interesting. This is what I aim for, I don't want to lose before we start but I am not going to avoid less effective units. I think that preference has plenty of weight to it.

I am aiming to go to next years G.T and I will be taking the beardiest
space marine army EVER. And I want to win at all cost.
So I am kinda hoping the new codex is all it’s cracked up to be.

- Boomer.

Haha no the company has its priorities in perfect order. Space Marines make GW more money than the other choices, so of course they are going to capitalize on that. It sucks if you don't play SMs, but you can't expect a company to not target the market that makes them the most money.

True, but they aren't idiots... they know that if they were to make a single army unbeatable, that'd be the franchise destroyed. Because the units are so much more expensive, anyone who doesn't know how to effectively use each one will have a very hard time on the battlefield. Plus, with the temptation to make an uber-killy army geared towards one thing (lascannon-toting tank-mashers, for instance,) means that the minute you're fielded against an army like orks or 'nids, you'll have a tough time focussing enough firepower to thin them out before they get into combat and chew you up. It's the new rules that make them fun and challenging to play with, and play against.

Now, I think that the reason Marines get more of an overhaul with each new edition (which I believe they do) is that they're still trying to tweak them in order to get the balance that many armies already have. The problem with such great all-rounders as the space marines is that it's hard to balance out specific strengths and weaknesses; it's always been 'they're good at everything, but there are less of them'. Players are becoming more and more able to plan a themed army with the marines, which I like.

I noticed in the last edition that many of the other armies took a drastic move towards their main strength, whereas previously many of the specialist troops in other armies still weren't as flexible or efficient as your average marine. Now orks are melee monsters, Eldar's exotic units can outperform most similar units in other forces, etc etc.

Hey,

they're still trying to tweak them in order to get the balance

Oh, balance! Of course. Balance. Twenty years in development, and Marines are still unbalanced.

Players are becoming more and more able to plan a themed army with the marines

Oh, yes. The "made of win" theme has always been a crowd pleaser with that demographic.
Witness the fluffy 13 Assault Cannon and 3 Demolisher Cannon list:

"My theme is that my Marine Chapter likes kicking the pucky out of the enemies of the Emperor in a timely fashion without getting thier suits dirty. Thats fluffy right?"
- Steven S, AWC

[gets out triple-beam scales]

Right, so I'll just put the Chaos dex on this side, and the new SM dex on the other, and ...
Pretty close. Chaos Marines get Daemons, and Loyalist Marines get Conversion Beamers.

And Thunderfire Cannon, Squad Plascannon, Multimelta Devvies, Jamming Beacons, Legion of the Damned squads, Free Heavy and Assault weapons for Troops, Masters of the Forge, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Iron Halos, Scouts with Hellfire rounds, Scouts on Bikes, the Combat Squad option, Command Squads, Honour Guard, Machine Spirit, Techmarines, Land Raiders with Frag Launchers, Land Raider Crusaders, Land Raider Redeemers, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Multiple patterns of Razorback, Marine Speeders, Tornado Speeders, Typhoon Speeders, Scout Speeder transports, Asscannon, Stormbolters, Sniper Rifles, Manstoppers, Cluster Mines, Pintle Multimeltas, Artificer Armour, Termis with Fists as standard equipment, Shotguns, Servitors, non-fratricidal Dreads, Furioso Dreads, Venerable Dreads, Ironclad Dreads, Mortis Dreads, ATSKNF, Vanguard, Sternguard, Cyclone Missile Launchers, Auxiliary Grenade Launchers, Bike-mounted Grenade Launchers, Jokaero Digital Weapons, Relic Blades, Storm Shields, Combat Shields, Transport Drop Pods, Hellfire Drop Pods, Deathwind Drop Pods, Inertial Guidance, Combat Tactics, Chapter Masters, Chapter Banners, Company Standards, Librarians with Hoods and nine - not just two - useful Powers from which to choose, Orbital Bombardments,
3+ Invulnerables and a dozen HQs that give sweeping bonuses to the whole army without a d6 roll involved.

Hmmm. It looks like this new book might have just a *smidgen* of advantage.
Oh well, no biggie. We'll just have to wait yet another edition for "balance".

Because smart people find it impossible to hire writers with basic math skills.


Playa

This always happens when a new codex comes out. People (both SM players and their opponents) need to get used to it.

Although of all the types of "the new book is overpowered" whining I've heard, the complaints about new marine books are always the most entertaining, by far.

The CSM list also has numerically flexible units, a multitude of effective troops, and Daemon weapons. Not to mention the fact that a basic CSM out-performs a basic SM. These were all things I had people complaining at me about when the CSM book was redone. That passed, so will the whinging about this book.

Hey,

Oh, balance! Of course. Balance. Twenty years in development, and Marines are still unbalanced.

Yes, and 20 years of parallel development of the main rulebook, too. Put together, there's a lot to go wrong as far as loopholes that allow powergamers to build beardy lists and wring the fun out of the whole experience. It would be more accurate to say SMs are constantly getting tweaked to keep ahead of those who take advantage of the letter of the rule and throw the spirit out the window.

Now, to be fair, I've always felt ALL codices should be as up-to-date as the Space Marines, and I can't argue that GW has fallen FAR behind with, in order, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Necrons and possibly nids (though I never hear nid players complaining about their codex, surprisingly).


Oh, yes. The "made of win" theme has always been a crowd pleaser with that demographic.
Witness the fluffy 13 Assault Cannon and 3 Demolisher Cannon list:

"My theme is that my Marine Chapter likes kicking the pucky out of the enemies of the Emperor in a timely fashion without getting thier suits dirty. Thats fluffy right?"
- Steven S, AWC


Ironically, you've addressed your own issue here. The constant, 20-year updating wouldn't be necessary if there weren't players like this one. GW does its best (and no, I don't work for them), but players like these are not interested in enjoying the 40k experience, or even tabletop gaming, for that matter. They play to win, and the only way to keep them from driving you nuts is declining to play them or learning how to outplay their lists (it's possible, and no, you don't have to tailor a list for it). It's not possible for GW to ever be able to fully counter this, be it marines or any other 40k race. They do their best to blunt it. That's about all we can ask.


Right, so I'll just put the Chaos dex on this side, and the new SM dex on the other, and ...
Pretty close. Chaos Marines get Daemons,


If you're going to get into this kind of comparison, you need to add a few things:

Marks of Chaos, Mounted lords, Noise Marine sonic weapons, Khorne Bezerkers, Lash of Submission, Plague Marines with Feel No Pain, Thousand Sons with hellfire rounds, Gift of Chaos, Defilers...

and I don't even PLAY Chaos. I'm sure some Chaos vets out there could add a LOT more to the list.

While we're at it, why stop with Chaos? Lesse... we have:

Necrons with We'll Be Back, C'Tan, large destroyer squads, Monolith, 'cron lists with 9(!) Tomb Spyders, Armoured Company, basilisks, Eldar grav (anything), Harlequins with Shadowseer, Howling Banshees, TMC Nidzilla lists, Synapse...

And having not played with/against every 40k army, that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure others can spontaneously come up with several things from MANY other armies out there that appear to be "unfair." For that matter, I'd hardly call half the stuff in your lengthy list below indestructable "I win button" units, but this isn't the point. See below:


and Loyalist Marines get Conversion Beamers.

And Thunderfire Cannon, Squad Plascannon, Multimelta Devvies, Jamming Beacons, Legion of the Damned squads, Free Heavy and Assault weapons for Troops, Masters of the Forge, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Iron Halos, Scouts with Hellfire rounds, Scouts on Bikes, the Combat Squad option, Command Squads, Honour Guard, Machine Spirit, Techmarines, Land Raiders with Frag Launchers, Land Raider Crusaders, Land Raider Redeemers, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Multiple patterns of Razorback, Marine Speeders, Tornado Speeders, Typhoon Speeders, Scout Speeder transports, Asscannon, Stormbolters, Sniper Rifles, Manstoppers, Cluster Mines, Pintle Multimeltas, Artificer Armour, Termis with Fists as standard equipment, Shotguns, Servitors, non-fratricidal Dreads, Furioso Dreads, Venerable Dreads, Ironclad Dreads, Mortis Dreads, ATSKNF, Vanguard, Sternguard, Cyclone Missile Launchers, Auxiliary Grenade Launchers, Bike-mounted Grenade Launchers, Jokaero Digital Weapons, Relic Blades, Storm Shields, Combat Shields, Transport Drop Pods, Hellfire Drop Pods, Deathwind Drop Pods, Inertial Guidance, Combat Tactics, Chapter Masters, Chapter Banners, Company Standards, Librarians with Hoods and nine - not just two - useful Powers from which to choose, Orbital Bombardments,
3+ Invulnerables and a dozen HQs that give sweeping bonuses to the whole army without a d6 roll involved.

Hmmm. It looks like this new book might have just a *smidgen* of advantage.
Oh well, no biggie. We'll just have to wait yet another edition for "balance".


*sigh* yeah, sure, you wanna put stuff on a scale, Marines are ALWAYS going to have more to choose from. That's been the case since loooooong before the current 'dex. The marines are GW's favorite. Is this a big surprise?

More to the point, the operative word in the above paragraph is CHOICES. Now, if a marine player could put all that in a single 1,500-point list... well, then I'd be more inclined to agree with your concluding remarks. As it is, they can't, and we all know it. The worst problem here is that non-marine players now have more stuff to get to know, analyze and probe for weaknesses. No, that's not fun, but again... how is that new reality THAT much different from when the new Eldar came out, or new Orks, or new Chaos? Trust me. It's not THAT bad, and as only briefly cited above, it's not like Chaos, Eldar, Orks, and pretty much anybody out there doesn't have PLENTY of toys to play with.

Honestly, crying foul over the Marines getting too much love is as bad as Ferris Bueller's sister complaining that he never gets caught, and ultimately about as useful.

Whatever your opponent brings to the table that you've never seen before, do what I do: Ask about it, its stats, etc., and over the next couple games with him/her, work out a counter.

If that doesn't work, play against somebody else, or give up playing 40k altogether if it distresses you THAT much, though that's a "last resort" option and would truly be a shame.

There isnt a single insanely hard SM list. They can fork out points for a load of assault termintaors, expensive models etc, but at the end of the day, i dont care what your save is, if i make you take enough saves, you will die.

GW have completely embraced the concept of massive power creep in 40k and FB. I despise it because I think that it does not fit the game and only invokes even more Listhammer than before. IMO GW is slowly replacing tactics on the field with a game where the battle consists of who can max out the most powerful combo on paper.

I agree with this to an extent. Our problem ("us" being the board-hounds) is that we play dozens of games on paper for every one game we play on the tabletop.

As powerful as any one list is or isn't, it still needs to be played. In WHFB especially, the best list in the world with a Down's Syndrome Monkey at the helm will get crushed. (I know this, because I lost dozens of games as the Brettonians when I was still learning to play WHFB.)

You still have to play a list properly, you still have move your units properly, you still have to shoot the right things, you still have to be aware of victory conditions and your dice still have to fall the right way.

While the game may always be in a state of moderate imbalance, I don't ever see it being so radically imbalanced to the point of, "Don't even bother playing army X if you want to last beyond Turn 3," or "If you're not playing army Y, you're just waiting to lose."

I've always seen the Marine "favoritism" as a self fufilling prophecy. They make the most money because they are the best supported. And they are the best supported because they make the most money. Plus, given their history all the way back to the beginning of the game, they still remain the iconic force of the game and thus GW feels obligated to maintain their "shiny" factor.

I'll wait to play the new marines a few times and get their new playstyle figured out before I jump to conclusions of "Cheese".

Though the new Storm Shield rules mean my Pariahs might actually start coming out to play. Say hello to my all save denying Str5 CC weapon!

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/Arklite165/PANIC.jpg

sorry... couldn't resist.

That sir is awesome.

Hey,

Oh, balance! Of course. Balance. Twenty years in development, and Marines are still unbalanced.

Oh, yes. The "made of win" theme has always been a crowd pleaser with that demographic.
Witness the fluffy 13 Assault Cannon and 3 Demolisher Cannon list:

"My theme is that my Marine Chapter likes kicking the pucky out of the enemies of the Emperor in a timely fashion without getting thier suits dirty. Thats fluffy right?"
- Steven S, AWC

[gets out triple-beam scales]

Right, so I'll just put the Chaos dex on this side, and the new SM dex on the other, and ...
Pretty close. Chaos Marines get Daemons, and Loyalist Marines get Conversion Beamers.

And Thunderfire Cannon, Squad Plascannon, Multimelta Devvies, Jamming Beacons, Legion of the Damned squads, Free Heavy and Assault weapons for Troops, Masters of the Forge, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Iron Halos, Scouts with Hellfire rounds, Scouts on Bikes, the Combat Squad option, Command Squads, Honour Guard, Machine Spirit, Techmarines, Land Raiders with Frag Launchers, Land Raider Crusaders, Land Raider Redeemers, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Multiple patterns of Razorback, Marine Speeders, Tornado Speeders, Typhoon Speeders, Scout Speeder transports, Asscannon, Stormbolters, Sniper Rifles, Manstoppers, Cluster Mines, Pintle Multimeltas, Artificer Armour, Termis with Fists as standard equipment, Shotguns, Servitors, non-fratricidal Dreads, Furioso Dreads, Venerable Dreads, Ironclad Dreads, Mortis Dreads, ATSKNF, Vanguard, Sternguard, Cyclone Missile Launchers, Auxiliary Grenade Launchers, Bike-mounted Grenade Launchers, Jokaero Digital Weapons, Relic Blades, Storm Shields, Combat Shields, Transport Drop Pods, Hellfire Drop Pods, Deathwind Drop Pods, Inertial Guidance, Combat Tactics, Chapter Masters, Chapter Banners, Company Standards, Librarians with Hoods and nine - not just two - useful Powers from which to choose, Orbital Bombardments,
3+ Invulnerables and a dozen HQs that give sweeping bonuses to the whole army without a d6 roll involved.

Hmmm. It looks like this new book might have just a *smidgen* of advantage.
Oh well, no biggie. We'll just have to wait yet another edition for "balance".

Because smart people find it impossible to hire writers with basic math skills.


Playa
would you like some cheese with your whine?

Hey,



Oh, balance! Of course. Balance. Twenty years in development, and Marines are still unbalanced.



Oh, yes. The "made of win" theme has always been a crowd pleaser with that demographic.
Witness the fluffy 13 Assault Cannon and 3 Demolisher Cannon list:

"My theme is that my Marine Chapter likes kicking the pucky out of the enemies of the Emperor in a timely fashion without getting thier suits dirty. Thats fluffy right?"
- Steven S, AWC

[gets out triple-beam scales]

Right, so I'll just put the Chaos dex on this side, and the new SM dex on the other, and ...
Pretty close. Chaos Marines get Daemons, and Loyalist Marines get Conversion Beamers.

And Thunderfire Cannon, Squad Plascannon, Multimelta Devvies, Jamming Beacons, Legion of the Damned squads, Free Heavy and Assault weapons for Troops, Masters of the Forge, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Iron Halos, Scouts with Hellfire rounds, Scouts on Bikes, the Combat Squad option, Command Squads, Honour Guard, Machine Spirit, Techmarines, Land Raiders with Frag Launchers, Land Raider Crusaders, Land Raider Redeemers, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Multiple patterns of Razorback, Marine Speeders, Tornado Speeders, Typhoon Speeders, Scout Speeder transports, Asscannon, Stormbolters, Sniper Rifles, Manstoppers, Cluster Mines, Pintle Multimeltas, Artificer Armour, Termis with Fists as standard equipment, Shotguns, Servitors, non-fratricidal Dreads, Furioso Dreads, Venerable Dreads, Ironclad Dreads, Mortis Dreads, ATSKNF, Vanguard, Sternguard, Cyclone Missile Launchers, Auxiliary Grenade Launchers, Bike-mounted Grenade Launchers, Jokaero Digital Weapons, Relic Blades, Storm Shields, Combat Shields, Transport Drop Pods, Hellfire Drop Pods, Deathwind Drop Pods, Inertial Guidance, Combat Tactics, Chapter Masters, Chapter Banners, Company Standards, Librarians with Hoods and nine - not just two - useful Powers from which to choose, Orbital Bombardments,
3+ Invulnerables and a dozen HQs that give sweeping bonuses to the whole army without a d6 roll involved.

Hmmm. It looks like this new book might have just a *smidgen* of advantage.
Oh well, no biggie. We'll just have to wait yet another edition for "balance".

Because smart people find it impossible to hire writers with basic math skills.


Playa

I second this post. Booo Space Marines. Too many toys.

Shouldn't Space Marines have LESS toys, given the inability to fix a lot of the machines they have? Fluffwise, more machines are lost every century due to neglect and failure to fix them. Soo... new Dreadnought? Nasty gun for the Techmarine? The Damned "once mysterious" now accessible? SEVERAL TYPES OF NEW AMMO? A NEW SET OF PSYCHIC POWERS!? FOR THE LOVE of Christ, at least advance the plotline to take this all into consideration!!!! Until then, its just GW giving out cheese to their pets.

The game is changing. It seems that every time an army is updated it just gets better... which just makes the metagame more interesting!

Couldn't agree more! How boring would it get if nothing changed EVER? :) And I like a challenge.

GW have completely embraced the concept of massive power creep in 40k and FB. I despise it because I think that it does not fit the game and only invokes even more Listhammer than before. IMO GW is slowly replacing tactics on the field with a game where the battle consists of who can max out the most powerful combo on paper.

Sometime I come across people playing a game of "my uber units" vs "your uber units", and basically it becomes a 4+, on a 4+ one dude has the perfect army for the game and wins, and on a 3- the other guy wins.

And then these same people with their uber lists come up against someone with a balanced list who really knows how to play the game, and the uber list gets trounced. Generally (generally), people who rely purely on some 'broken' army list don't know that you actually can apply tactics in the game.

Everyone at the store i go to keeps moaning about the new marines being too hard, but i still think chaos space marines are harder, though the new rules don't apply to me cause i'm Blood Angels :) i just wanna know if anybody else thinks the same

You know, I really feel that the only truly 'broken' army, if any really is broken, at the moment is IG. Most people wouldn't agree with me, but these people probably haven't seen a well written list played by a person who really knows how to use them. 5th edition is really made for the current IG codex, taking kill points into account and all. The new marine 'dex doesn't phase me at all. Expensive command squads? Veterans? Less marines to kill - and they die just as easily as before. Storm shield terminators? Who cares - they aren't scoring units, and they are expensive.

As far as broken goes, I say 'meh'. The only thing that might annoy me a little is the massive amount of variety now available to marine players compared to other 'dex's, but really, variety can only be a good thing when you get right down to it.

All in all, I like the new marine codex.

Sometime I come across people playing a game of "my uber units" vs "your uber units", and basically it becomes a 4+, on a 4+ one dude has the perfect army for the game and wins, and on a 3- the other guy wins.

And then these same people with their uber lists come up against someone with a balanced list who really knows how to play the game, and the uber list gets trounced. Generally (generally), people who rely purely on some 'broken' army list don't know that you actually can apply tactics in the game.



Well said. I've never subscribed to the idea that there are "broken" units out there at all, or "broken" armies. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, warfare basically comes down to exploiting your own strengths and exploiting your opponents' weaknesses. He also says that learning to adapt to your enemy, sometimes on the fly, is a major component to victory.

Now, to be sure, there are 40k units out there which make it very easy to exploit their strengths, and very hard for an opponent to exploit their weaknesses. Unfair? A bit, sure, but every army has them, and as the junkie has said, using them as a crutch to hold up your win record will ultimately not teach you anything about your army, 40k, or tabletop gaming in general.

Meanwhile, everyone with a "balanced" list who is capable of learning from mistakes on the battlefield who takes you on will slowly and steadily learn more about you and your "perfect" army with every game. Eventually, your opponent will learn how to adapt. Then, you'll find wins don't come as easy, if at all, and you won't have any idea why, because you haven't learned a thing.

In short, you'll be screwed.

I second this post. Booo Space Marines. Too many toys.

Shouldn't Space Marines have LESS toys, given the inability to fix a lot of the machines they have? Fluffwise, more machines are lost every century due to neglect and failure to fix them. Soo... new Dreadnought? Nasty gun for the Techmarine? The Damned "once mysterious" now accessible? SEVERAL TYPES OF NEW AMMO? A NEW SET OF PSYCHIC POWERS!? FOR THE LOVE of Christ, at least advance the plotline to take this all into consideration!!!! Until then, its just GW giving out cheese to their pets.
Which is why I thought a tweak of the 4th edition would have been more suitable - back-peddling slightly, I know, on the point I previously made about the 4th edition having tremendous potential for beardiness, but this can be addressed by a couple of points:


that's where the tweaking would come in, and



as members such as Canew wisely pointed out, anyone who fields such an army is never going to learn a thing, and the potential exists to do so in far more codexes than the marines anyway.

I believe what you say is true, but only when taking certain chapters into account; some, such as more or less all of the Ultramarines and their founding chapters (who command a heavily industrialized, ludicrously guarded area of space) continue to prosper, at least as far as the marines go. This is why the chapter traits and divergences were such a good idea, because you could field minimalist guerrilla forces such as the Raven guard OR gun-toting, tech-heavy army like the Iron Fists without having to circumvent the army list too much.

Well, it's true, Marines are pretty strong, but I mean, come on, it's marines. GW poster boys. Would they ever not be a top list?

The reason I think people are moaning is because the new Codex: Space Marines bastardizes the other lists and just steal the good parts to make one super list, leaving the other codexes in the dust. I feel for Dark Angel players, as they literally just had they're list blended into C:SM. Now they are at a disadvantage running their parent list. It doesn;t help that GW said "no, your book is staying how it is, you must use the old outdated stats..." at a Gamesday.

However, I think starting with Orks, we are going to see big, fat powerful books coming out in both fantasy and 40k, and until all books are like that, their are going to be whiners who are actually justified.

And I disagree with C:CSM being a good list. It may have some good builds, but it's soooo plain it's not funny. It is more vanilla then a C:SM list, not to mention I can make a better legions list from it.

And I disagree with C:CSM being a good list. It may have some good builds, but it's soooo plain it's not funny. It is more vanilla then a C:SM list, not to mention I can make a better legions list from it.

It's lack of flavour is something I'm sure we all agree on, but that doesn't affect the strength of the builds.

I haven't seen the new Marine book yet, and I don't know if I want to. I have been disapointed with the blandness of the past few codices, and am concentrating on Fantasy more now. Anyway, after 12 years in this hobby, I can say that this will die down when people realise the new list is a fair one. It'll just take time.

So will all this complaining start with the next new 5th codex that comes out?

Let us say it is guard. They will get some new rules,tweaks, costs and maybe units.
Now is everyone going to scream that guard are too hard! Guard are broken!
Probably yes.
I have only been in this hobby for a short time compared to most people here and it seems this is the standard.

A new codex makes many people go all crazy. Why not just take a deep breath and relax.

Your/our armies will get a new codex eventually. The marines are just new again. Let them have their moment. Then the next army will get their moment and on and on, until all our little armies are covered. Then there will hopefully be talk of tactics, games, and so forth again; instead of people complaining about the "new" codex that just released and ruined the game.

Just my $0.02.

Look ... People who whinging about the new SM dex

Unless you play DH, WH or DE ... You have no right to whine, your dex was at least updated for 4ed ...

Good things come to those who wait, unless they play SM and then they are normally first of the rank .... Such is business

Am I missing something here?

In the new dex does it say "New Rule: Awesome! Space Marines can no longer be killed ever. Don't try, seriously."

Load the bassies and russes, we can still blast 'em to the warp! :freaked-out:

Am I missing something here?

In the new dex does it say "New Rule: Awesome! Space Marines can no longer be killed ever. Don't try, seriously."

Load the bassies and russes, we can still blast 'em to the warp! :freaked-out:

Such an angry little Guardsman...


:)

In the new dex does it say "New Rule: Awesome! Space Marines can no longer be killed ever. Don't try, seriously."


give gw time

It's a pattern, new 'dex or armybook comes out: "OW NOES! this new edition will make <input army name here> unbeatable!!!!1one! What is GW thinking off?!?!?!!!1one!" and after a while a new book comes out and the whole thing starts off again.

I sort of aggree with Zem but with a twist. It is by now obvious that GW aren't that good game designers they are fluff designers very very good fluff designers NOT game designers.

Hence they are completly clueless about what happens to a game that is updated bit by bit instead of in leaps and bounds. What they should ahve done all along is simply pull the plug on all releases of cedexes. ALL of it. And the rerelease the whole damn thing when they have properly balanced it. but now they can't because not only does the new material have to be compatible with older materials it also has to be compatible with materials not yet released and that is simply not working.

In some ways the new SM codex is broken in others it is underpowered and as allways I have yet to see a dex where every last entry in it is worth playing.

possessed will never be played and I can imagine that the more hardcore players of SM will by now have found the units that simply never will see play because A. another unit does it better B. another unit does it cheaper or C another unit does it both better and cheaper.

IF ... gw was smart ... They would hire a few gamers to make/help the rule changes ....
Let the fluff guys write their fluff .. and the gamers work out the rules around the fluff

I sort of aggree with Zem but with a twist. It is by now obvious that GW aren't that good game designers they are fluff designers very very good fluff designers NOT game designers.
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Always nice to be in the same team with ms Process!

possessed will never be played and I can imagine that the more hardcore players of SM will by now have found the units that simply never will see play because A. another unit does it better B. another unit does it cheaper or C another unit does it both better and cheaper.

Agreed, and the space marines has so much choice in units! Eldar is an army with a lot of choice, but it pales when put next to SM it pales completly