Hey everyone. This is my first post, I hope it's in the appropriate forum. I'll start by saying hello. My name's Charlie, and I play WHFB in New Jersey. I'm fairly new, and haven't played competitively yet. I play Ogre Kingdoms and am undefeated casually against Dwarfs and Vampire Counts. Highest point army I've played was 2k.

Anyway, I'm looking for some help. I want to make a secondary army, because the Ogres basically... do one thing well, so every fight I see myself doing the same thing over and over again. Looking for variety.

My play style is as such:
I like sneak attacks and ranged attacks.
I like being unseen.
I like magic, but not being reliant on magic.
I love poison attacks or "quick kills."
I like armies with "fodder" or "bait" and trickery tactics, allowing me to bluff in real life to get out of situations.
I always keep an "ace in the hole" so to speak, I like having a Plan B.

I've narrowed it down to two armies...
Wood Elves and Lizardmen.

I've been reading their army books ad nauseum, and both look extremely enjoyable, and they are capable of filling most of the criteria listed. I'm undecided... can anyone here help me. And with all due respect, please do not suggest an army other than the two I've decided on. I can't afford (mentally or financially) to consider another.

Thank you all in advance!

I would go with Wood Elves since they seem to meet many of your requirements. I myself have a wood elf army and they can be tricky to use but are rewarding if you can get the hang of them.

When it comes down to it, I prefer wood elves.

I have played both at one stage or another, but when I want a good game where i need to think to win, i play wood elves

there are many inventive ways to set up an army from ranged to close combat, all forest spirit to all elven.

The fliers are great for baiting (warhawks and eagles)

Nearly every unit is a backup for one another, so tactics can adapt and change on the fly so you can have a plan B, C and D if you want as the game goes on

we have game winners (treemen and war dancers) and sneaky units (waywatchers, although personally i prefer war dancers with the ability to teleport into other forests behind the opponent and wreak havok as my sneak attack)

We have no instant kill things though which may be a dissapointment for you. We do have killing blow but a little hard to get.

our archers are great, Dryads are possibly point for point some of the best CC units you can get and in the end the only thing wood elves can't do is match anyone for strength... but we are elves after all

Out of the two, Wood Elves.

As a Lizardman player, the list can do what you're looking for but the only real way to get there is taking Skinks en-mass and that's really not going to make you popular.

You're going to love Waywatchers if you like being ranged, sneaky, unseen and the quick kills- as Scouting Skirmishers with Killing Blow ranged attacks and typically solid Elven BS, I can't imagine myself not using them if I were to pick up Wood Elves. Being able to appear from a wood first turn and pop a wizard is priceless.

To match what Tossy said, Dryads are some of the best core in the game and the magic item that lets you teleport from wood to wood is just plain nasty.

Hey guys thanks for the feedback. It's weird, I started leaning towards the Wood Elves (in the GW) today... and I come home to see that Wood Elves are winning the polls. By all means keep the votes coming, and definitely let me know, Lizardmen voters, WHY you voted for them.

Also, any new Codexes being written for either army? And how can I find out about new Codexes?

You can simply watch this (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-news-previews/) forum. WEs shouldn't get a new book for ages yet, though maybe not so for the Lizzies.

-AFG//

My advice to you is to put close dates on your polls ;)

Lizards all the way, skink have auto poison attacks and a choice of javelin or blow pipe, all it takes is one failed charge that lands 3 inches away and you get 50 attacks from a unit of 25 skink. 6 = instant wound so from 50 you should get at least 8 instant wounds and fingers crossed another 8 normal wounds, seriously they will not want to get back up even if they are dwarfs.

as for magic, well i have 3 words, Slann Mage Priest, nuff said this should be your general and then use at least one skink mage priest to back him up,

if you are only playing 2000 points then u cant have a carnosaur but no matter take a saurus scar vet. and give him totem of huanchini, (9 in normal move 18 in charge) he is my ace in the hole as he is so fast he can get to most battles you need to win in 2 turns max.

finally if you want sneak attack deploy chameleon skink in nearby woodland and watch the enemy try to get you, at the last moment send in a terradon to delay them and get the skinks out of there.

:thunder:By the will of the Old Ones:thunder: i command you to turn lizard! :P

Lizardmen are getting a new book soon after warriors of chaos they have a lovely new kroxigor and plastic stegadon. I voted for lizardmen because of poison scouting two shoot skinks terradons for flying around and hitting and runnning and the jsod ace in the hole ( speeding out of a unit at 18 inches with a great wepon suprises people for some reason)

My advice to you is to put close dates on your polls ;)

Haha... hey, come on, I'm new! Alright, alright, I can't use that excuse forever. Yeah, actually the first time I made this thread I completely forgot the poll! So it's a learning process for me. Either way, I'm not making my decision until BOTH of my current armies (Ogres...Goblin Only) are complete, painted and have accumulated wins. So maybe by then I'll have like, 50-100 votes. You know how votes work, a bunch of one party comes and votes, then a bunch of the other party comes and votes... it fluctuates. The longer the better.

I'm still leaning for wood elves, but the last 2 Lizardmen posts were REALLY convincing. I like the poison darts, that was one of the selling points, along with the Slann Priest and the chameleon skinks.

Yes, keep the advice coming. I'm pretty new to Warhammer, and I really appreciate any help. I know how competitive play goes... there's always things I gotta watch for, and basically I know of NONE of it. So sometimes I'll think something looks awesome, and then I tell a veteran player about it, and he's like, "Oh, yeah... most things destroy that real fast..." and things like that.

I love my WEs, but I bet the new LM will be great. I'd consider running them just for fun if I had the money and time. They've always been a well-rounded army: monsters, shooting, combatants, magic. Lots of fun and very versatile.

A nice website about Lizardmen

Warhammer - Lizardmen (http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/lizardmen/default.htm)

Wood Elves
Warhammer - Wood Elves (http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/woodelves/)

if you havent seen them already

My thoughts have always wavered over Lizzys... on some days they seem like a very cool army and on other days to me they just seem... cold blooded.

I would go with whichever you prefer to paint. Do you prefer the scaly, scouting creatures or the graceful, foresty, green and brown Wood Elves? The choice is yours!

Hex

I voted Lizardmen, just because I think they are cooler. I don't know much about elves but I glanced over a Liz codex a while back and they seemed pretty stout. The new codex for Lizardmen should be a treat and if you started them then, you would have them at their best, along with great new models.

aha i remembered something i didn't post earlier.

Dont be put off by the lizardmens seemingly low LD value. lizards have cold blood which lets you roll 3 dice for LD tests and choose the lowest 2.

The new army book coming out will be awesome what better time to start building a lizard army? opponents will take at least 2 months to figure out how to win against the new changes and models so you should have a few months of winning.

Also, slann can be upgraded to a higher level 2nd generation, this gives them more speels than normal level 4 spell casters, a total wounds value of 8 yes 8. and the drain magic spell which really p***es off your opponent when they realise they cant use spells! wood elfs look flashy but honestly they really aren't thaat special.

can you say no to a normal value of 2 atacks from a saurus warrior? can you?

lizardmen can beat the tricksy elveses any day. :dance:

The new army book coming out will be awesome what better time to start building a lizard army? opponents will take at least 2 months to figure out how to win against the new changes and models so you should have a few months of winning. ?

It will also take me some time to develop strategy, however.

Wow, the responses to this thread are really helpful. Now I'm back on the Lizardmen kick.

A few questions....

Are they formidable warriors in battle as well?

Because while I do really enjoy sneaky kills and magic spells, it would be unrealistic to think you can win a battle with them alone.

Where should I start?

Seeing as how there are new models coming out, if I were to buy now, how would I know what will be phased out, and what I should or should not have?

Saurus warriors, these will definitly not be phased out and are awesome in battle at just 12 points per model you get 2 attacks and a 5+ armour save without paying anything extra, also the 4 strength and 4 toughness has saved my hide more times than i care to remember.

i would suggest buying a unit of these and a unit of skink, I would also invest in a kroxigor pack which can charge through your skink skirmishers and decimate any line. unlike the skaven rat ogre counterparts kroxigors have an armour save, namely 4+, not to be sneezed at...

they also have a huge strength value of 5 which when using their great weapons turns into strength value of 7! these are definitly staying as there are well founded rumors of a re-vamped kroxigor, one of the advantages of going lizard is that while there are not that many troop choices they literally have a unit for every occasion.

Units i wouldn't buy yet would be cold one riders as i am sure they will be re-vamped due to the dark elves cold one update, and the stegadon, that model is definitly getting an update.

I believe that a well managed lizard army is virtually unstoppable especially when used in conjunction with sacred spawnings... What do you prefer, a few Uber units with loads of upgrades? or lots of units with little upgrades?

I definitely prefer many units with little upgrading.

So I should buy the battalion box, then... 90 bucks for:
24 Lizardmen Saurus (including Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician), 24 Lizardmen Skinks (including Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician) and 8 Lizardmen Saurus on Cold Ones (including Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician).

That's like 2 units of Skink, 2 units of Saurus... and (even though you advised against them) a unit of Cold Ones riders... which considering the box already has 4 core units for $90, the Cold Ones were free.

Okay, firstly Skinks do not have the option to take standard bearers or (and this one's the kicker considering how long they spend running away from things) musicians.

Second, I'm not a fan of Saraus (I'm not saying they're rubbish, just that they don't work for me); I like to run fast lists with Sknks for my core and Kroxigor as my "hammers" and in this kind of build Saarus are really let down by their distinctly avoidable movement value. I find them slow, far too expensive to get static combat res out of (which is what you really want out of your infantry blocks as Lizards really have problems generating static res) and just disadvantaged by their low WS with the amount of WS7 the new books seem to be able to chuck around. Helm of Commandment and gogo Saraus, you're hitting skeletons on 5s!

And I don't much like Cold one Riders- their save isn't imense for a heavy cav unit and you WILL fail that stupidity when you need it most.

For me, the units that make Lizardmen great are: Skinks, Kroxigor, Terradons, Salamanders and the Stegadon. And of course, all our characters except the Skink Chief are fantastic.

Lizards really have problems generating static res and just disadvantaged by their low WS with the amount of WS7 the new books seem to be able to chuck around. Helm of Commandment and gogo Saraus, you're hitting skeletons on 5s!

True their WS isn't great but what is that second attack for? with 2 attacks you should hit with at least one and if you are blessed by the dice gods 2! also you say that their movement is slow but they move at 4M it is slower than the other units in the lizard army but when used correctly e.g. deployed at the front of your army at the start by the time you are in the action your other units have caught. i admit that you can build an army without them ( I have done ) but i find that you will really miss the punch that these guys can pack when you need it.

And I don't much like Cold one Riders- their save isn't imense for a heavy cav unit and you WILL fail that stupidity when you need it most.

their save isn't great but i think that the -1 to hit makes up for that dont you? and stupidity doesn't matter if you have plenty of skink withering the lines before you need them in the action granting you one turn to take into account a failed test.

I'm pleased you have gone lizard! I really thought u were going to go elf for a minute... but welcome to lustria, hope you dont let us down :P

I think Wood Elves sound more like what you're asking for, but if you want to start playing competitively better to start painting up those models that are about to get a new book =)

Ti admit that you can build an army without them ( I have done ) but i find that you will really miss the punch that these guys can pack when you need it.

Pish posh, I've never found myself looking at my 2 Scar-Vets, Oldblood, Stegadon and 8 Kroxigor and thinking "This army lacks punch..." :P

Anyway- I personally don't like Saraus, as I've said. Doesn't mean they don't work, I just don't care for them... My opinions are no more right that yours, but I thought it nice to be able to give the new spawning more than one take on the army list.

Still, as much as I do love Lizardmen and as biased as I am for them being my main FB army, I do think Wood Elves better fit the playstyle the original post was outlying.

Yeah, I've decided to go with Lizardmen. The chameleon units and the Slan Priest did it for me. Wood elves seem to have a lot of shoot and run tactics, which is cool. But I like to sneak in and go for kills. Not *ping* RETREAT! *ping* RETREAT!

Also the fact that they're getting a new codex, and their models are easier to paint, and much purdy-er colors... are all good reasons. In addition, I decided to built a Lustria battle ground out of old Atlantis-style aquarium decorations I have. I love the terrain building aspect as well as the army, and Lizardmen have a nicer home than WE, in my opinion.

All those things, plus this poll is 50/50, pretty much... which tells me that Lizardmen are a worthy adversary. I think I made the right decision.

Wood Elf people, I apologize... but think of it this way... it's not that I don't like your army as much as I don't think they fit my play style.

Pish posh, I've never found myself looking at my 2 Scar-Vets, Oldblood, Stegadon and 8 Kroxigor and thinking "This army lacks punch..." :P

Lol s'pose not!!! wot I meant was in context with luckys game play style which doesn't seem to allow for all them lot but yes point taken. :handshake:

Lol s'pose not!!! wot I meant was in context with luckys game play style which doesn't seem to allow for all them lot but yes point taken. :handshake:

Just cuz my play style doesn't include something, I never rule it out. If it's effective, it's effective. As long as I can use my play style, even if it's just a little bit.