In WH40k I would just like to know what HQ in cc is the most powerful and feared. And additionally which army is most cc orientated?

-my friend says it's a fully suped-up Archon, Hive Tyrant, or Daemon Prince.

well i agree with the 1st and 3rd but i think an ork warboss could take a hive tyrant and if we are including special then the nightbringer would be on top

x1 Canoness - 110 points
- Jump Pack
- Eviscerator
- Cloak of St. Aspira

For her points she can take on any other HQ except a C'tan, even a DE archon has the disadvantage against her. Shes fast, damn hard to kill, hits hard in close combat, and adds 2 faith points to your army all for 110 points. Daemon princes are a joke against her, hive tyrants are even easier.

Kharn the Betrayer - Plenty of attacks, 2's to hit and wound most man-sized models. Perfect for taking out enemies infantry.

hmmm...how might a suped-up Grey Knight Grandmaster or Marneus Calgar do in cc?

Special or no? Because the Warmaster was a BEAST. So was Sanguinus and Primarchs. But a sooped up Broodlord is Damn good. Toxin Sacs, Feeder Tendrils, Extended Carapace, ect. With his full retinue upgraded too, i think he could take out quite a few guys on the list. He ignores armor saves WITH A 7 Iniative, get 4 attacks, his retinue rends, and you can get up to 26 attacks, 2 that ignore armor saves, and 2 regular, and 22 rending. Yeah. That's a lot of saves. WIth an Attack of 6 and 7, you can be sure most of the attacks will land too. Yeah. Also, the tendrils will automatcially make him and his retinue on a +3. Feeling nervous. You should be. Also, he can infiltrate.

I agree with Hydra about broodlords. Having a minimum number of genestealers as a required upgrade for one of the highest initiative models in the game. Broodlord isn't the toughest, but it hits hard and fast enough to take out most anything before they get a return swing. Though lack of an invulnerable save is kinda rough.

Well, as everybody's answered the first part of your question, I'll throw out my ideas for the second - but this is considering that I haven't really gone up against the new Orks and haven't seen the new SM codex (been a bit too busy for the hobby lately :()

So, as a Chaos player, I think Chaos is one of the strongest armies in CC, through the obvious Khorne Berzerkers, but let's not forget the value of the rank-and-file Chaos Space Marine - hard to beat when it comes to value-for-points. Another strong army in close-combat are the Tyranids.

i can't believe not one person has mentioned the Avatar of Khaine!!!
I'm not saying he's the very best, but he has the highest WS in the game and has decent strength and toughness to go with that. not to mention 2D6 armour penetration and ignores armour!

And Robtheguru, unless there is a special rule i don't know, you cant hit on 2's the lowest is 3's, which is a real bummer for the Avatar!

And finally Gauss_storm, i've never seen a cannoness in action so forgive me if i'm wrong, but the cannoness doesn't seen very good to me. She has a 2+ armour save(thanks to the cloak) which any power weapon can counter, and then the thing that counts as a power fist(that still only gets her up to str 6), which makes her last. even with her 3 wounds and 3 attacks, i think a squad of 10 assult marines whose sgt has a power weapon could take her down. admittedly the marines would take some casulaties.

Also Robtheguru, you cant hit on 2's the lowest is 3's, which is a real bummer for the Avatar!

Read the gorechild rules and say that again. ; )

Ghazghull Thraka. 2+ Inv save, 7 attacks on charge with insane T and S10. Also immune to instant death :)

I'd need to have more specifics to even try to answer this question. Better how? For killing enemy troops? Killing enemy HQs? Are we taking cost into consideration? How about retinues? Is mobility a consideration, or are we just talking about a toe-to-toe slugfest in a vacuum.

That said, for CC, I've always enjoyed using Lilith Hesperax + Retinue. Very choppy and tough (in CC) for a very reasonable price.

For absolutely butchering anything with a 3+ save...
DE Archon at str6 (usual upgrades), 7 Incubi, 1 Master and Drazhar. Not exactly worth the points but damn, thats alot of power weapon attacks.

For those that wholeheartedly believe the best Close Combat Phase is one you don't have to fight:

Inquisitor Lord: Artificer Armour, IoTJ, Psycannon and Emperor's Tarot, using Sanctuary against Daemons or Scourging instead of Psycannon if needed, with a retinue of 3 Gun Servitors w/ Plasma Cannons, 3 Acolytes with a gun of some sort, 3 Familiars and 1 of everything else.

Bloodthirster.

Silly number of high strenght attacks, good save, good invunerable save, good amount of wounds, high toughness, wings and all the abilities that comes with being a daemon. Aside from special characters, there's not much that can match a bloodthirster in survivability, movement and killing power.

EDIT: For the shooty hq:

Command Squad,
Heroic Senior Officer, Iron Discipline
Retinue, 4 guardsmen, veteran, company standard, mortar

fire support squad: 3 autocannons
fire support squad: 3 autocannons
anti-tank support squad: 3 lascannons
anti-tank support squad: 3 lascannons
sentinel support squad: 3 sentinels with lascannons

That's another HQ with quite the killing power, without going overboard on upgrades. :>

Ghazzy would have a Bloodthirster, easy. Also - using IG is cheating :P

an ork warboss with a power klaw, attack squig, cybork body, and 'eavy armor is very cheap and will kill most if not every non-special HQ without a retinue

Kharn is the MAN at taking stuff down, 7 attacks hitting on 2s at high strength. He is fluffy to the extreme, gives you an excuse to shout a few "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD"s every time you massacre an unfortunate squad, yours or your opponents (I've rolled 7 ones with a 7 man bodyguard and it is dang funny), and is very fun to throw into enemy HQ choices (except Archons there mean with their initiatives and other stuff). For his cost you get a fun charecter that many people pay too little attention to.

And finally Gauss_storm, i've never seen a cannoness in action so forgive me if i'm wrong, but the cannoness doesn't seen very good to me. She has a 2+ armour save(thanks to the cloak) which any power weapon can counter, and then the thing that counts as a power fist(that still only gets her up to str 6), which makes her last. even with her 3 wounds and 3 attacks, i think a squad of 10 assult marines whose sgt has a power weapon could take her down. admittedly the marines would take some casulaties.

Faith point, spirit of the martyr, can anyone say 2+ invulnerable save?

A grey knight grand master is pretty sweet and hes feared but he isnt the 'best' just more intimidating i suppose. As for a cc army then just have rank and file grey knights. WS5 ST6 is minimum on all models and that only gets better.

Oh and also @ Izzinatah, =][= retinues can only have one plasma cannon.

PL

Seriously did I just miss it or did NO ONE say Abaddon? Lets see cant be insta killed has str of PF and I of an Avatar with a demon weapon that gives extra attacks and he insta kills anything he wounds. Oh ya--and has a tzeentch demon ISave.

2nd Best is Archon with that nast ISave and I would say 3rd is Mephiston.

i can't believe not one person has mentioned the Avatar of Khaine!!!
I'm not saying he's the very best, but he has the highest WS in the game and has decent strength and toughness to go with that. not to mention 2D6 armour penetration and ignores armour!

And Robtheguru, unless there is a special rule i don't know, you cant hit on 2's the lowest is 3's, which is a real bummer for the Avatar!

And finally Gauss_storm, i've never seen a cannoness in action so forgive me if i'm wrong, but the cannoness doesn't seen very good to me. She has a 2+ armour save(thanks to the cloak) which any power weapon can counter, and then the thing that counts as a power fist(that still only gets her up to str 6), which makes her last. even with her 3 wounds and 3 attacks, i think a squad of 10 assult marines whose sgt has a power weapon could take her down. admittedly the marines would take some casulaties.


Ahh Shuriken .. you forget the thing that makes the Cannoness Great in combat .. that +2 save .... is inv ... Thats right .. (Either with the addition of some wargear OR the use of a faith point)

And I agree points for points ... She is one of the best in CC in the game

Ahh... i am sorry i doubted the cannoness.
With a INV save, i can see that she would be quite a formidable opponent.
I've never read the WH codex and don't know anything about them.

Yep, it's quite embarrassing when an Avatar gets beaten up by my two girls. ; )

Don't forget mantle of Ophelia for immune to instant death. I prefer a blessed weapon, just 1 less strength, but you attack on init (which you can boost by +2 to strike first) and it is master crafted.

One of the best CC HQs has to be a biker Warboss with a powerclaw and an attack squig. Crap tons of s10 power weapon attacks, and toughness 6!

GKGM with his s6 force weapon only needs to wound once to win.... accept of course if it is against the Cannoness who is immune to the force weapon's auto kill via shield of faith rule.

GKGM with his s6 force weapon only needs to wound once to win.... accept of course if it is against the Cannoness who is immune to the force weapon's auto kill via shield of faith rule.

True, but she's not immune to the NFW's "instant kill via getting skewered by a S6 power weapon" rule! ;)

The Grandmaster (and everything else with a Force Weapon) is running into problems all over the place these days, with the new rules for FW's and the sudden proliferation of Eternal Warriors and other things that ignore instant death. Fortunately, he's enough of a badass to get the job done without the force effect.

I have to agree as before, rank and file grey knights are the single best cc army Statswise - that said they cost virtually double what any other basic trooper will, but 1 on 1 they will come out on top more often than not.

As to the shooty HQ, the Flyrant has to top the list. 196 points will buy you death on wings, pumping out 12 S5 shots that reroll to hit and wound on a BS of 4 (Enh Senses gives +1 BS). I often get 11/12 wounds and have had a single worst of 8/12, which was more than enough for the Daemon-prince to dorp his last 2 wounds. For sinlge handed shooting, this is not a beast to be trifled with as a character assasinator and as a flying anti-infantry battery.

CC HQ i have to vote for the Archon, tooled to the teeth.

for the best point to kill ratio of regular dudes, id have to say a Khorne lord with a daemon weapon. ive seen that guy kill entire squads by himself. its just silly.
Though i do have a soft spot for the ork warboss, specifically ghazgull. man that guy just makes a mess of things. ive taken out a revenant titan just with him. and with the new rules, throw him with some meganobz and a painboy an bang, a whole bunch of powerfist weilding nutters with 2+ saves and FNP. messy

What I an wondering is why no one has brought up the Nightbringer or Lysander in the new marine Dex. Lysander is crazy. Having a 2+/3+, 4 wounds, stiking a strength 10 and being immune to instant death. the only thing that could reasonably take him out would be Abbadon or a C'tan and they cost way more than him.

Alright, I thought the maker of this thread would say if it was HQ or Special Characters. Apparently he didn't. Alright, from his words, I'm guessing he meant HQ UNITS ONLY, so no Special Characters.

If we can use special characters, for the points I would say Lelith (spelling?). She is seriously undercosted. But then again, I play dark eldar and eldar primarilly. (Especially since the loss of my beloved Lost and the Damned.)

If you're not talking about "for the points" then the question of what is best is really too far open to interpretation. For example, the nightbringer can easilly cut through an HQ squad of termies, but could easilly fall to the witch blades of a seer council, which in turn can't fight anything with a 2+ armor save.

Alright, I thought the maker of this thread would say if it was HQ or Special Characters. Apparently he didn't. Alright, from his words, I'm guessing he meant HQ UNITS ONLY, so no Special Characters.

Special Characters are a HQ Choice.

What I an wondering is why no one has brought up the Nightbringer or Lysander in the new marine Dex. Lysander is crazy. Having a 2+/3+, 4 wounds, stiking a strength 10 and being immune to instant death. the only thing that could reasonably take him out would be Abbadon or a C'tan and they cost way more than him.

I just have a question, in the new codex who is better? M. Calgar or Lysander?

Depends what your after:

Anti-HQ/Monstrous Creature/Character:

-Skulltaker - Instant Death on a 4+ anyone?
-Kharn - Charging with 7 attacks, hitting on 2's with S6 at initiative 6. In most cases thats wounding on 2's in addition to the hitting on 2's rule. So most times your talking about 6/7 wounds that need to be saved. For me personally, he has the best ratio of points cost to total killed. He usually kills or atleast helps in killing 2 to 3 times his total points per game.
-Abaddon - I put him 3rd on the basis that he has the chance to not attack at all. But its usually a safe bet that when you don't roll a 1 with his Daemon weapon, whatever your attacking is dead. Did I also mention he's just as hard to take down?

Anti-Unit:

-Kharn and Abaddon again

Army Buffing:

-Vulkan He'stan - Re-rolls on almost all flamer weapons and meltas, how can you say no?
-Epidemius - Makes the army almost invulnerable and overly hard


My personal opinion is that the Chaos HQ options are superior to the rest of the armies in the 40k world because they get so many amazing abilities. Then again, most of these abilities are reserved for special characters and for some reason there are people who take offence to others using them.

Ill put in votes for a fully tooled Hive Tyrant, Abbadon, Kharn, Skulltaker, Fateweaver, and the Broodlord.

I agree, Chaos has some of the coolest HQ units, they get to go wild as far as abilities, and are only checked in point cost.

i can't believe not one person has mentioned the Avatar of Khaine!!!


Thanks, i do rule.

If we can use special characters, for the points I would say Lelith (spelling?). She is seriously undercosted. But then again, I play dark eldar and eldar primarilly. (Especially since the loss of my beloved Lost and the Damned.)

If you're not talking about "for the points" then the question of what is best is really too far open to interpretation. For example, the nightbringer can easilly cut through an HQ squad of termies, but could easilly fall to the witch blades of a seer council, which in turn can't fight anything with a 2+ armor save.

The nightbringer is easily the ultimate cc machine, but he fails because games workshop forgot to make him immune to instant death! If anyone can show me something that consistently kills him in CC without abusing the instant death thing i'll eat... some food.

Ill put in votes for a fully tooled Hive Tyrant, Abbadon, Kharn, Skulltaker, Fateweaver, and the Broodlord.

I agree, Chaos has some of the coolest HQ units, they get to go wild as far as abilities, and are only checked in point cost.

what's a Fateweaver?

Grandmaster, Mastercrafter Nemesis Force Weapon, Icon of the Just, Retinue of 4 (or so) Grey Knight Terminator Bodygaurd. Very nasty CC HQ. His stats are a bit long in the tooth, but what great unit to look at!

Much better now in 5th with the bodygard rules!:dance:

fateweaver is the oracle of tzeentch and you take him in a chaos daemons army. Though he is :poop:in cc:qq:

Actually, he has a power weapon that causes two wounds, and can reroll his 3+ Invul save. He can hold his own, but hes better at range.

yea, good point. still nightbringer all the way:qq:

You want a combat monster... i'll give you one.

For Reference: By fully tooled i mean, powerfist to go with lightning claws + fun extras.

Oh and if you don't beleive me check page 21 of the space marines 4th edition codex.

Previous edition(4th) SM codex (still usable with players consent),
Take a Master(fully tooled up), an Epistolary (fully tooled up), a Master of Sanctity (fully tooled up), 10 man command squad, all upgraded to veterans with power weapon or powerfists, Oh and furious charge....

Over 1000 points of hideous.

This takes 1 HQ slot, you can take two lots of this. (if you have the points)

In total thats 3, 3 wound characters 1 of which is invulnerable to instant death 2 of which have a 4+ Invulnerable save, all with a 4 up invulnerable, plus 10 space marines and some psychic powers with your librarian.

They all have power weapon or power fist (Or both as you don't need guns that way you can use what ever is best for a certain opponent), and on the charge your getting 55 initiative 5 or 6, re-roll failed to hits, re-roll failed to wound, power weapon attacks at strength 5 or 42 strength 9 Power Fist attacks with re-roll failed to hits.

I used one of these squads and took out an entire 2000 point tyranid army. So yeh bring the nightbringer my way....by all means.

What? No, you couldn't - the librarians or chaplains that you add to the command group take a force organisation slot, I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the old old codex.

True, but she's not immune to the NFW's "instant kill via getting skewered by a S6 power weapon" rule! ;)

The Grandmaster (and everything else with a Force Weapon) is running into problems all over the place these days, with the new rules for FW's and the sudden proliferation of Eternal Warriors and other things that ignore instant death. Fortunately, he's enough of a badass to get the job done without the force effect.

Actually mantle of ophelia makes her immune to regular instant death too.

The reason why I brought up the GKGM's force weapon is because it is different than a regular force weapon. Old codex means you use the old rules instead which means a different wording, so no eternal warrior. The GM's force weapon kills anything he wounds, no exceptions because it isn't instant death.

I'd need to have more specifics to even try to answer this question. Better how? For killing enemy troops? Killing enemy HQs? Are we taking cost into consideration? How about retinues? Is mobility a consideration, or are we just talking about a toe-to-toe slugfest in a vacuum.


Not to mention which edition of rulebook/codex

I seem to recall a techmarine with servo harness used to pack a punch. specially if you switch the bolter for a storm bolter.

thats 7 CC attacks, more if on the charge. not to mention a 2+ inv save, no armour save for the power weapon and a nice 9 for ld. not too bad for only 105 pts.


still... i am a techmarine freak. i'd use em as sargent if i could...

I'm going to digress, why is the Imperial Guard HQ so feared? is it because of the Commissionaire? Senior officer? Command Squad?

and what's more powerful? a Senior Officer or Commissionaire?

I'm going to digress, why is the Imperial Guard HQ so feared? is it because of the Commissionaire? Senior officer? Command Squad?

It's because an imperial guard HQ can bring more heavy and special weapons to the table than most armies will field in a 1500p game.

I know! the Forgeworld Bloodthirster that's worth 888pts, An'ggrath the Unbound he still counts as an HQ choice right?

Where'd the idea that a Warboss could easily take out a Hive Tyrant in CC come from?... If you decked them both out, it would probably be up to whoever charged.

Well Warboss vs, Hive tyrant is tough, since the warboss will have a worthwhile invi save, but the tyrant will be hitting first. Actually I'd have to say that the warboss is more likely to win, the Tyrant wouldn't be able to get enough attacks through that would reliably wound. For the most part the Warbosses attacks that hit are going to end up wounding and not be saved against either.

In terms of 1 on 1, HQ to HQ combat, without special characters, I would be tempted to say a fully tooled up Necron Lord could win.

Sounds insane? Maybe, maybe. But with a Resurrection orb, a phase shifter, either the phylactery + gaze of flame combo or a Destroyer body and a Warscythe, he is going to be very hard to keep down whilst simultaneously cutting through all protection the enemy has. You'd have to defeat his slightly better than average toughness, the invulnerable save and then hope he doesn't just get back right up again. When he hits and wounds, there's nothing you can do to negate it. Unless maybe your HQ has an innate FNP (remember this is 1 on 1, no pain boys etc.).

Still, the only way he wins against true close combat beasts is through attrition. One roll below 4 and he's gone for good.

anyone mentioned Marneus Calgar + 3x 10man Honour Guard squads yet? they only take up one HQ slot on the FOC.

basically an army in it's own right...

but i really don't know what weapons/gear they can take, and the overall score of such a force would be...


ciao.

How about we keep it to regular HQ units, not Special Characters? I'm pretty sure thats what the maker of this thread meant. In CC, I keep my Broodlord choice. Or a Hive Tyrant. Kitted out, these guys are beasts.