DE vs HE Star Dragon army - how to?

[kasper_the_god]

Hi fellow Darkies.

I've fought several battles against my elven brethren and cannot seem to find a way to win, when he uses the Star Dragon with a defensive equipped lord on top.

First of all, I don't know who to attack (the lord is even harder to hurt due to saves but has less wounds).
Secondly, should I focus on the dragon or try to leave it alone?

I've been thinking of trying a Dragon Killer lord:
Dreadlord on Dark Pegasus
items:
Pendant of Khaeleth (ofc), Regeneration armor and crimson death.

This character could eventually wound or at least hold up the damn Dragon, hopefully for the entire battle, or until I can turn my units and flank/rear the dragon.
Would this be any good?
if not, what else should I do?

Thanks a lot in advance, it seems that the dragon is my only real threat in the HE army if he deploys it, since the rest of the army can be outmaneuvered.

Best regards - Kasper

[1337Malekith]

Well, to fight a dragon, you are gonna need something that will make sure you don't run. Dark steed can't be killed from under your feet as his hero will make it easy combat rez + outnumber = you autobreak. With a darksteed, you dont give him any combat rez and just focus on the dragon. Trust me Ive faced this and I tried killing the hero up top. It didn't work to well.

My lord was on a coldone, crimson death, regen, PoK, inside a unit of CoK with banner of slaughter. I got the charge and challenged him. He passed this break test which was like a 3, and ended up getting tied down for 3 turns of combat till his dragon princes flanked me. It took my assassin to KB his Lord on the dragon, besides that I will ALWAYS focus my str 5 or higher atks onto that damn dragon.

So here are some tips
- If you get 1st turn, shoot the hell out of it
- Get your lord into a challenge with the dragon and prince
- Don't have your lord on a mount that gives his str 7 dragon free combat rez (Dark Peg, Dragon, Manticore, Chariot)
- Using a unit of Dark Riders with a lord might seem like a tasty treat for him so put it out there to get the charge
- Coldone's are nice as you only take fear instead of terror or if you feel like thats not enough, give the Cold One Knight Champ the Pearl of Infinite Bleakness
- Make sure you are in a unit that can provide static combat rez as your lord in a challenge will hopefully and most likely take ALL his away (Banner, Out Numbering, some sort of warbanner or BSB if you have the points, ranks if you want him in a foot unit)

Hope this helps. With Dragons, you have to deny him combat rez as he only generates the outnumbering and can't win without the kills

[kasper_the_god]

Aight, it seems like a nice idea to do, especially that with the free kills aso :)
But he knows if I deploy the Lord in the CoK, so he can just chose to focus on the rest of my army, thus destroying it. Wouldnt it be nearly impossible to get my Lord to the Dragon if my lord isnt flying?
Wouldnt he be stupid to get his dragon range/sight of my lord in that way?

I'm a little new to this game, if my questions are stupid in any way, please excuse me :)

[1337Malekith]

Shadow magic helps out with this, Look up Unseen Lurker, get a level 2 with a power stone and drop 6 dice to get it off haha, it will force his dragon to fight your lord. Dark steeds are not much slower than a dragon so I would try for that if its such a problem. Also if you take bolt throwers, deploy them away from each other so he will have to fly around getting hurt.

[kasper_the_god]

Aight, good idea with the lurker.
Thanks a lot, I'll try it when I get to face him again :)!

[Dom9001]

Dropping six dice into any spell seems like you'd be asking for a miscast. I'd give that sorceress either a sacrificial dagger (to increase the casting without risking miscast) or a tome of furion (to increase the chance of rolling the spell up). I'd say a unit of CoKs with the lord in is your best bet, give them the standard of slaughter for the D3 res and the banner, they outnumber with US12 and you could even throw a bsb in there if you wanted, just to give some extra res and maybe the banner of cold blood to make the stupidity and fear tests not a problem anymore :).
This would, on average, give you 5 Combat res to start off with. If you give your lord the potion of strength and a lance he can have S9 on the charge, so you should get at least a wound on the dragon hehe. Hope this helps a bit

[kasper_the_god]

Yeah.
I'm trying an antimagic armylist (2 scroll caddies + ring of hotek) so the Dreadlord in CoK unit seems like the best idea, thx :)

Does my lords Ld10 apply to the whole unit when testing for stupidity?

[Dire]

My solution is most Epic I believe, though might be tricky and requires a little practise.

I'm using Lord on my own Black Dragon equipped with this nasty spear (Caledor's Bane... how fluffy) as well as Potion of strengh.

Once I get the charge, which is hardest part of all but shouldn't be very hard due to all those Harpies around, I strike as hard as I can trying to kill theDragon. Of course, his Lord is faster than myself... nevertheless, he is not decent in combat. He may, I believe, maximum deal a single wound. And then I try. With Eternal Hatred and that many attacks, Lord should almost always deal 3-4 wounds himself. Then my Dragon with 5 re-rollable attacks should, if Khaine wishes, finish it.

If not, I managed nevertheless to cause enough harm to kill it next turn. With propobility of my Dragon surviving his ones' teeth and claws. THat's more than possible after all. But not neccesary.

Then, during his combat phase, least I have already killed his Dragon, Lord, still being S7 finishes fragile monster.

From this moment onwards its quite easy.

[kasper_the_god]

Interesting (and fun) idea, the last one.
I'd bring a damn dragon myself :)
thx alot

[Zei]

Ever tried 4 bolt throwers?

[buckero0]

assassin manbane, rending stars with some shades will get you wounds. You could even double dip and have 2 assassins and 2 units of shades. Add 2 RBTs and he's going to have a hard time making that many saves. The rending stars hit on 2's, wound on 3's and no armor save on the dragon.

[kasper_the_god]

I tried doing the math on 4 bolt throwers - its not worth it imo. And if you're just a bit unlucky or he gets the first turn, its just a waste of 400 pts.

I may try the shade theme you're telling about, sounds like fun too :)

[buckero0]

Unless you move, your multi shot shades are going to hit on 2's as well. The good thing is with 2 of them, you can almost always scout into a good position to shoot at them. The armor piercing abilitiy on crossbows makes normal saves on the dragon that much harder and can even sneak a few in on the prince. If you put 4-5 wounds on his dragon, he'll rush to get into combat or run and hide him. Make sure you keep your shades wide spread, otherwise he'll roast them with a breath weapon though.

i'd take 8 of the shades in each unit. That's 16 shots hitting on 2-3's and then wounding the dragon on 6's, the Prince on 4's

The assassin can shoot at a differnt target from the shades, so I'd try to get both rending stars going, if you kill the dragon, then his tough guy will fall to the floor and then can be hit by something that causes fear and outnumbers him (hydra, cok, lore of death)s o you really just want to hit the dragon if you can.

[chaospantz]

1. 4 Bolt throwers. Do the single shot for the multi wound and no save and hope to hit the dragon. If you get the first turn and keep out of his charge reach you would be able to take 8 shots at him befor he can reach you.

2. Dreadlord with Pendant, Armour of Servitude, on cold one with the Deathpiercer. I like the death piercer becaues of the Killing blow you get, put him in a unit of 5 knights and challange him out. if your lucky he wont be able to get past your defense(course you probably wont be able to wound him back) but a drawn combat works in your favor. No wounds and you outnumbering from the extra CoK's means you win my 1. Pluss you guys will be in combat for most the game.

3. KB Assassin, it was said he will avoid your Dreadlord with the pendant, throw an assassin in units most likely to get charged. Give them extra hand weapon, Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death and Dark Venom. You'll be striking first with 5-7 hatred attacks and killing blow. Chalange him out to make sure all the attacks will go on the assassin though instead of the unit and that way if you do killing blow the rider you'll get 6 CR from the dark venom. Assassin will die to the dragon after his done but we are the Dark evles. Sacrifice him to gain victory.

Those are the best I could come up with. The great thing about these options is that you could run alll three of them in a 2K list with little problem.

[kasper_the_god]

Chaospantz, I see your point.
Option 1 and 2 seems very viable, but if I use an assassin I'l let him have the control. An assassin with that gear is like 170pts, which I could buy a whole unit or a master for. So he'll know by the look of my army, if a have an assassin or not. And be careful who he charges.

From my point of view the Dreadlord on Dragon (caledors bane and potion of str ftw) and the Shades theme Buckero0 has going on seems like the most viable units to use if you still wanna be in control of the battle.
The 4 Bolt Throwers seems nice too, but its kinda more risky.
I'm thinking of using 4 Bolt Throwers AND the Dragon for my next battle against him (hoping it'll be soon).
But if you guys got more advice, please don't hesitate to tell me :)
Thx for all the great answers

[buckero0]

2. Dreadlord with Pendant, Armour of Servitude, on cold one with the Deathpiercer. I like the death piercer becaues of the Killing blow you get, put him in a unit of 5 knights and challange him out. if your lucky he wont be able to get past your defense(course you probably wont be able to wound him back) but a drawn combat works in your favor. No wounds and you outnumbering from the extra CoK's means you win my 1. Pluss you guys will be in combat for most the game.

3. KB Assassin, it was said he will avoid your Dreadlord with the pendant, throw an assassin in units most likely to get charged. Give them extra hand weapon, Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death and Dark Venom. You'll be striking first with 5-7 hatred attacks and killing blow. Chalange him out to make sure all the attacks will go on the assassin though instead of the unit and that way if you do killing blow the rider you'll get 6 CR from the dark venom. Assassin will die to the dragon after his done but we are the Dark evles. Sacrifice him to gain victory.

.

sorry, but #2 is a bad idea. If a star dragon player lets a super hero on a stupid lizard get him into combat, then the stardragon player has no idea what he's doing. Stardragons fly. Cold Ones are stupid and move on the ground. If you ask me, this is a way to get your COK to cost 3 times as much as they should and get them killed in one turn (flank shot = you can't challenge, fear and outnumber, or he'll just blow fire on you til you're dead)

#3 Sorry again, but this is not the greatest idea either, Assassins are expensive and have poor leadership when in infantry troop units, which means they can be run off the board due to panic and terror (anyone not using fly, terror and str4 breath weapon to their advantage doesn't know how to use a dragon) KB only affects the guy on top of the dragon. The dragon is just as good without the guy on top, and in some ways better without him, so I don't think this is a good use of points or strategy. You'd have better luck with a unit of 20 crossbow elves in full ranks. 80 shots at a dragon will work better and be cheaper than paying for multiple assassins.

We do have better shooting than most, so I'd say use that to our advantage. I know the stardragon is a pain, but unless you're rolling terrible like I do most of the time, you ought to do some wounds with just 2 bolt throwers. Remember that his stardragon is 700pts. Its okay if it eats a unit or 2, you're still ahead. Just make sure you don't line up all your units in a row. Protect your characters. Star dragons are not immune to magic or shooting and we have plenty of that. He should get shot at, get into combat and then be shot at again. It may take a few turns to take him down.

[kasper_the_god]

Aight. Last night I played a game DE + Lizards vs HE (just a friendly game. Since we were 3, one team had to consist of two :p) and I used my Dragon 12" near the Stegadon for the 5+ Ward save against his 5 Bolt Throwers (3000 pts match) and he used the Star Dragon too and blew the shit out of us. He won by 1000 pts, a Solid Victory thats for sure.

Our problems:
He knew I deploy my dragon to kill his dragon, so he stayed out of sight of my dragon so I couldnt charge him. And since we had no Bolt Throwers (which we found out was a bad idea) he just dominated the game totally. He charged my black guards in the rear and I rolled 2x6 for the break test and fled into his Dragon Princes.
The only units I had, actually worth the points was the Hydra who took out half of a unit of swordmasters (well the unit was only 1 rank of 7) by breath, a unit of Archers (10) and a Lion Chariot. My unit of Spearmen with an assassin would've been worth the points if it didnt get hit by a Flames of the Phoenix and got annihilated by turn 4.

His problems:
His Dragon princes with a BSB (the +d6 cr banner) charged the stubborn temple guards and got flanked by my Black Guards (also stubborn), so kinda waste of a the banner there)

My conclusion to all this whine:
NO dragon. Too many points, and he can have 8 bolt throwers even in a 2k battle, due to his imbalanced army list choices.
I'll go with 4 bolt throwers when I'm going to meet HE again, since shooting works wonders against these kinda light armoured elves and his darn Dragon.
A unit or two of shades seems like a good choice too, but I'm not sure about putting an assassin in it or not - because the situation of him getting in 12'' range for the Rending Stars are prolly not gonna happen more than 1 turn during the game? (correct me if this is a false statement :) )

[Dire]

NO dragon. Too many points

How the hell can he have 8 Bolt Throwers? He can have only 4. And that should be Dark Riders and Shades problem, not Dragon's. Coordinate your forces.

If it comes to LoS, let your both Dragons be useless, as his is much more expensive. Deploy behind your forces and prepare for counter charge, you are Large Target + you Fly. Use it!
If he disagrees to challange, shoot or charge his unit and crush it! You gain the upper hand in such case. Do let him dominate battlefield, you are Druchii after all. You can deploy in such a way your Dragon protects almost 40" of your flanks as counter-charger. Deploy weaker units in front of heavies to make sure he will not get away with crushing them and stucks. Use Harpies to deny him free ad easy charges.

You are mobile. You are mobile. You are mobile. You are mobile. You are mobile. You are mobile.

[kasper_the_god]

it says in the HE army book that he can have up to 4 rare choices in a 2-3k list (special kinda rule for HE's I guess), and a Bolt Thrower is only ½ rare choices = 8 RBT

About the Dragon problem.

My only reason for taking a Dragon is to kill his dragon, I don't think its very cost effective against non-dragon/giant lists. Of course, you don't know if the enemy is taking Dragons, but I thought it would be worth a shot against HE's.

His reason for taking the dragon in this particular fight is to breath and terror and stay the hell out of sight of my Dragon. His bolt throwers only purpose is to kill my Dragon, therefore he puts them behind his other units, rendering my DR's attempt to catch them useless. That means also that the only viable target he can shoot at, is my Dragon, due to LoS... well my Hydra too, but the dragon is prolly a more emminent threat.

I totally see your point in bringing mobile troops, and since I'm a new player, that is the lesson I need to learn before I master my army thats for sure. I just think that the Druchii has both mobile and powerful troops (e.g. Shades/DR/harpies vs BG/CoK/Hydra) and I'm very exited about combining CoK and the Cauldron of Blood for an unstoppable charge, but I prolly forget the strenght of mobile troops.
Meh.. :)

[Pixie]

In the 6th edition HE book you could have 1-2 bolt throwers (or eagles) per rare slot, chiefly because they followed the standard of 4 specials 2 rares for 2k format.

7th edition, however, as you know, there's 4 rare slots at 2k, but the ability to take two bolt throwers per rare has been removed, so, no, no 8 bolt throwers for 2k games.

[kasper_the_god]

Oh, he had an illigal army then (only by 1 BT tho, but still..)
Thanks for pointing that out, I'll smash that into his face :)

[Dom9001]

I thought you were playing 3000 points? In which case 5 bolt throwers is fine and he has a rare choice spare.

[kasper_the_god]

well d'oh (at me). I was too upset about the 2250 list :p
Correct, we played 3k so it was a legal list he brought, hehe