How do you reach combat?

[Lost Nemesis]

Forgive me if this topic has been covered, but I wanted to double check it for myself, now that I'm starting up a Dark Eldar force (again) for the Tale of Painters.

During the last game I played (a 2v2 game against a Khorne army and Eldar), I read through the rulebook and found an entry that I'm not positive used to exist. It didn't matter to me at the time, though, because it was a friendly game and I was playing as Tau Empire, so I didn't have any assault troops, but now that I'm moving into the realm of the Dark Eldar, it is a matter of grave importance.

Page 67 of the BRB:
'If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark ... but may not assault.'

This seems to be a bit of a problem for Raider heavy assault-based lists. How do you deliver your units, such as Wyches or support Warriors, to combat? If you move your Raider, even turning it on the spot, you may not assault that turn. It's less of an issue for my CSM friend, because even though his Berzerkers are all but useless in the shooting phase, they can at least withstand some damage by sitting it out in their Rhino with their MEQ stats. Dark Eldar, sadly, don't have that option, not with T3 and at best a 5+ save (not counting Incubi) and their open-topped transports.

Short of fielding a WWP list, what do you do to ensure your squads get into combat?

[ArtificiallyEnhanced]

Being open topped allows DE to assault from raiders that have moved up to 12". This is generally how I work it through, though hugging cover and screening with grotesques can work too.

[Lost Nemesis]

Being open topped allows DE to assault from raiders that have moved up to 12". This is generally how I work it through, though hugging cover and screening with grotesques can work too.

Okay, I've decided that I fail. Either that, or can't read. :X

Scratch the main purpose of this thread, then, and let's shoot for....

When do you tend to try to get into combat? Do you focus on Raiders, WWPs, footsloggers, or a combination of two or more of those options?

I feel like the "Raider rush" type of list still holds true, but I'm curious to see what other types of units people field, including the "Large Assault squad" used by karantalsis in his stickied tactica (since that's my first ToP entry that I'm shooting for).

Cheers for that AE, I completely forgot about open-topped vehicles.

[ArtificiallyEnhanced]

I don't use the WWP anymore, I find its too expensive for what it does. I take a mix of large footslogging squads, a raider squad or 2 and some small sniper squads. The footsloggers can generally get there fast enough due to fleet/having other more important targets. Basically by throwing enough small units at the enemy, some of its gonna stick!

[Gardeth]

Raiders, raiders, raiders, and when you think you have enough, add one more raider. With an all raider mounted army you will often find that you don't have to or even want to get to the enemy, you can simply shoot the bejesus out of him and assault what pitiful scraps remain. Against shootier armies you can just go full out at him and he'll be hard pressed to do something to all your raiders (8 for me at 1850) and you'll have a 4+ cover save to boot.

[KwiKwag]

When do you tend to try to get into combat?

I agree with the full-on rush – give them too many targets to shoot at. I am still a little nervous doing this as I used to play wwp and always looked at 3rd or 4th turn rushes – I no longer play wwp, the rules for 5th make it real tough to use.
So it kinda looks like I spend the first turn or two rushing and assaulting in the 2nd or 3rd. The charges themselves are usually quite successful but it’s the aftermath that gets you squads killed. So generally I will prefer a late rush and give as little time as possible for the opponent to recover. Coming in piece-meal through the wwp or deepstriking most of your army will get them killed one by one – charging all at once appears to be the option for success. Put the elites or expendable units in front screening the more important raiders. What is important to you is your decision but “scoring units” are the ones I like to preserve.


Do you focus on Raiders

Yes, 6 raiders to split between “troop” and “elite” with an occasional foot squad. Foot squads do not last long and no matter how large I make them they die to shooting before the games end. If I play with 3 Talos then usually I can use a ravager as a raider and this means everyone is in a raider. I sincerely believe 5th edition has now added a 3rd dimension, shooting, assaulting and moving. We can do all 3 very well and sometimes I find that being as mobile as we are is more deadly than the other two – you can’t do that without using a lot of raiders.

WWPs,

I feel the new rules for 5th really hurt the 4th edition method of deploying the wwp. True-line-of-sight, new IC rules and new methods of entering the game (outflanking, teleporting, drop-podding, etc.,) have all made carrying the portal beyond the first turn a dangerous risk. By turn 2 the enemy can pretty much be in assault with you or get every gun within range – in 4th this was not possible and as I see it most games are still using 4th edition terrain that do not hide things well.
The other option is to drop the portal in the 1st turn. To me I find that 2 of the mission setups do not really need the portal to begin with. Do I really want to drop the portal on the first turn in a pitched battle? Am I really getting my 100 points worth dropping a portal on the edge of my deployment zone? Heck, even in the other two deployments (spearhead and dawn of war) I find spearhead really doesn’t even need a portal strategy and Dawn of War would only make a difference if you were going first or not. A little not worth it in my eyes even if I got both portals down – I ask myself, could I have been better off just placing everything down or just use “reserves” instead? I know in spearhead that coming from reserves is an awesome thing when you are practically entering the game from behind him.


footsloggers,

I mentioned what I thought above. I can handle one foot slogging group but when I run 2 or more then I have to include them into a strategy that is going to keep them alive. If you are going to rush all your raiders forward and let a squad or two on foot run into position that will be fine for the first couple of turns as they are kept busy by the advancing raiders. I suppose their only advantage is that they are only one kill point is plus but I often find the lone empty raider a good “contesting” unit that can take away an enemy “claimed” objective away (from 24” away) for a turn (hopefully on the last turn).

[necronoob]

I use a combination of raiders and large assault squads. I think I would used raiders if I had more but sadly I have two and I am going to be bringing back an old proxy for my wyches.

With largish squads and lots of them I can usually get enough into either rapid fire range or into assault to make an impact.

Having warp beasts and one warrior squad and wyches and incubi mounted and getting into assault quickly really does help my warrior live to capture objectives.

[Wicky]

[QUOTE=Lost Nemesis;1518811 shooting for).

Cheers for that AE, I completely forgot about open-topped vehicles.[/QUOTE]

Yes it's a bit convoluted but I would like to think that the real quote is “If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark ... but may not assault……unless.’

And the ‘unless’ is found on page 70 “Open topped vehicles follow the normal rules, with the exceptions and additions given below.” “The passengers of an open topped vehicle may assault…..”


Another addition is the speed limit of fast transport vehicles that have moved or are going to move flat out in that movement phase [12” and upwards, again page 70] that denies disembarking.

But I agree with the others here, at the moment the Raider rush is our best option until the new Codex comes out and perhaps the portal will get its rules brushed up to become more viable.

Cheers.

[buckero0]

sorry to dumb it down as I don't get to play 40k much and I normally play IG (which doesn't have opened topped transport vehicles anymore)

you can assault out of OpenTopped vehicles if you have moved under 12" (otherwise it's 6" and under right?)

You can still only shoot out of a vehicle if it's moved 6" and under right? or does the open-topped or fast vehicle rule override this?


Destructors and horror/terrorfexes count as heavy or light weapons for the purpose of moving and shooting from vehicles?

[Lost Nemesis]

If a regular non-open topped vehicle moves at all, even just to turn in place, you may not assault at all. You may disembark, you may shoot (counting as having moved), but you may not assault, unless it's got some special rule specific to that vehicle.

Full rules for open-topped vehicles may be found on page 70 of the BRB, as Wicky referenced above.

Regarding horrorfexes, etc., they do not count as defensive weapons so are going to be counted as main weapons, I believe. Otherwise (for the infantry versions of weapons) they count the same as they regularly do.

[psychichobo]

I use a very jetbike-heavy army, so try to turbo-boost then dart around corners to launch assault moves. Being able now to use punishers on jetbike succubi has made life much easier...

Also, my Archon is a lone, tooled-up footslogger using drugs, punisher, tormentor helm, shadowfield, and animus vitae. She basically sneaks around (being only one little model, she's not hard to hide) and then leaps out with the drugs's 12' charge, as well as some other bonuses (re-rolls, +1 str) often battering most units alone. Heck, she once took a wave of fire from an Ork Boy Squad followed by a charge, and won and sweeping advanced them. Of course, there are those times when she explodes from overdosing, but meh.

[Lost Nemesis]

Also, my Archon is a lone, tooled-up footslogger using drugs, punisher, tormentor helm, shadowfield, and animus vitae. She basically sneaks around (being only one little model, she's not hard to hide) and then leaps out with the drugs's 12' charge, as well as some other bonuses (re-rolls, +1 str) often battering most units alone. Heck, she once took a wave of fire from an Ork Boy Squad followed by a charge, and won and sweeping advanced them. Of course, there are those times when she explodes from overdosing, but meh.

Isn't that a little dangerous, not running her with a squad? I feel like I'd at least find a squad to attach her to in the mean time, just in case you can't adequately hide her otherwise, since the IC rules are changed in 5th edition.

[psychichobo]

I've never really had any problems hiding her. Pick up your Archon model and put it near some 40k terrain. You'd be amazed how difficult it is for anything to see enough of her to shoot her. If she's near a building, put her between windows and she won't actually be visible.

She usually tends to get shot at when she fails to consolidate into cover effectively, or once she's in the enemy table half. When you see a DE army, your first target or concern isn't often a little girl running aruond on her own. That, and with drugs you move 6 +D6+ 12" charge. It's very easy for an enemy squad to unknowingly move within that range. If they're in cover, make sure you've taken plasma grenades too (forgot to mention that piece of wargear) so you can butcher them and then hide in the very spot they were using!

[Lost Nemesis]

I've never really had any problems hiding her. Pick up your Archon model and put it near some 40k terrain. You'd be amazed how difficult it is for anything to see enough of her to shoot her. If she's near a building, put her between windows and she won't actually be visible.


I want to play on the tables you play on! There's rarely enough cover separating my force from my enemy's, in the middle; it's usually all in the deployment areas with a couple area terrain pieces, usually, sticking up in the middle, but never enough to hide a single model from view.

I'm most likely going to be ending up with a retinue of some sort.

[Wicky]

Regarding horrorfexes, etc., they do not count as defensive weapons........ .

Yes it seems that the weapons need a stated strength in order for it to be classified as ‘defensive’ or not and since Horrorfexes do not have a stated strength…………

[DEfan]

If I go second...I like to park a raider or 2 and my ravagers behind cover, reserve the archon raider and a wych raider and then bait opposition to come at me with warrior foot squads. I like to run my ravagers in a squadron for maximum overkill.

If I go first... It is all on the table, all at mostly one focused place as quickly and aggressively as possible. Of late the Talos has been retired from service until it can get a deep strike rule!!

While opponents are doing there moves I like to take crafty looks at the table and my tape measure. If targets are within 18 inch guesstimates, the assault is on!!

[Splata]

Yes it seems that the weapons need a stated strength in order for it to be classified as ‘defensive’ or not and since Horrorfexes do not have a stated strength…………

It actually states that weapons without strength are defensive weapons in the rule book!
Which raises a couple of questions.
When you get a weapon destroyed result, are they able to take off the horrorfex as it doesn't have a str equal or greater than 4?
Is it a weapon? Can it even be stunned? It just occurred to me that I didn't remember the rule book saying that it fired. It definitely doesn't have a profile under its section...

[Wicky]

It actually states that weapons without strength are defensive weapons in the rule book!
Which raises a couple of questions.
When you get a weapon destroyed result, are they able to take off the horrorfex as it doesn't have a str equal or greater than 4?
Is it a weapon? Can it even be stunned? It just occurred to me that I didn't remember the rule book saying that it fired. It definitely doesn't have a profile under its section...

You are right, no strength DOES mean it is a defensive weapon but the rules boys don't think so!

I believe that you can take the Horrorfex off if you get a weapon destroyed result since its classed as a larger version of the Terrorfex and that has a profile on page 13.

[Krovin-Rezh]

I also go for the Raider rush, but will typically place a couple of pieces of terrain large enough to hide them behind as they move up into range. Sometimes they can see a few enemy units from this position and will take pot shots if they haven't moved more than 12". It really makes all the difference. But if you don't have something like that available, your best bet is to flat out along one of the flanks and hope your cover saves hold up. If the opponent is not very long ranged, it's actually best not to move into assault right away. Knock out as many targets with DLs and Disintegrators first, and then go for the charge. Also, team up your assaulting squads and charge multiple units where possible.

And it's actually Flat Out above 12", not at 12" and above. This is however a small distinction since you could go 11.99" in previous editions for the same effect.

[The_Outsider]

Since my 1500 list only has 2 assault units (the rest of my raiders a chock full o' warriors) my typical plan is a shielded deployment (i.e all the warrior raiders shield my ravagers and assault raiders) followed by a turn 1 flatout move from the assault raiders (possibly under the cover of the warrior raiders going flatout - to take the shield with them if you will) and then more often than not a turn 2 chage.

If there is a sensible amount of terrain the need for the warriors to go with the assault raiders is reduced and thus the warriors spend their time lancing stuff to death (well, their raider does, the warriors msotly sit tight and hide).