Want to play dark elder but..

[Kelter Skelter]

Not quite sure because

A) the fact that GW seems to hate them and their rules are so old

B ) they seem to have limited play styles (mainly fast and brutal)

but for A) i like the idea of trying to build an army that's a little bit against the grain of the norm. seems like a fun challange. would make me feel more elite! and for B ) that style sounds fun but hard to pull off. anoher challange.

i'm still building my first army, i've been planning on necrons thus far (bought models here and there) and have been intending to buy the "warrior phalanx" for about $170

but, the dark eldar are always in the back of my mind so i thought i'd make a new thread

if i'm starting a DE army what's the best models to get for a well rounded army? i'm not talking a "starter army," somthing a little more competative

obviously a battleforce would be good to start with at about $75 and i hear it's the best battleforce value but are all of the models usable? what do i get next? another battleforce? are the bikes useful if you have 10? what sort of models will i be trying to get for my $170? what are the best tactics to build around(and the models to accompany them)?

steer me in the right direction!

p.s. what's up with the trees in the battleforce? why?

[ArtificiallyEnhanced]

p.s. what's up with the trees in the battleforce? why?

Who knows. Seriously!

The battleforce is pretty good value, its certainly cheaper than buying separately, but the bikes don't come with any weapon options so you'd have to convert.

As for an add-on to the battleforce I'd say you'll want another raider or so, maybe a ravager or 2 if you want to go that way or wyches and incubi if you want to go CC based.

To go for an "against the grain" army you could go haemonculus heavy: 6 haemonculi, lots of grotesques, 3 taloi, warrior squads for ranged support. You could even try the trapdoor spider trick where you drop a WWp for your taloi to come out of.

Another example is the "army of shadows: mandrakes, the mandrake SC, lots of nightshields, deepstrike, maybe some splinter cannon scourges and some of the more Ld based wargear like horror/terrorfexes etc.

Hope I've given you some ideas to get started, good luck!

[Kelter Skelter]

you said a lot i dont understand, looking them up in the codex in between forum searching

could you tell me what the units to avoid are? which ones are the best fall back ones(units that are almost a must)?

and i'd like to play in the traditional raider style they're designed around. move in quick, hit real hard, get out fast. although if i'm not a huge fan of wyches what's the best way to achieve this?

[Wicky]

Ok, firstly welcome to the true kin, and welcome to the world of speed and attack. Oh and by the way leave all your armour at the door as its not being used here.

To address your points –
A) GW doesn’t hate Dark Eldar, they hate their sales figures and since that is mostly their problem I guess you could say that they hate themselves!
The age of the rules (11 years old now) is a problem but a new codex is coming out probably next year and for the most part you should only have problems interpreting how they mesh with 5th Ed, and this is where we all get to argue ourselves to death online for free.

B) There playing style is limited, and as you say to ‘fast and brutal’ but do you really have a problem with that? I would rather win big or lose big because grinding out a draw just seems so boring to me.

The army is hard to play but it has a bit of an undeserved reputation here mainly with ex-marine players not understanding sacrificial play, disposable transports and half naked Wyches beating up Terminators.

Now the ‘best’ models (and I am assuming that you mean the best to play with in the game) would be undoubtedly –
• Warriors and their double special weapons choices,
• Raiders and Ravagers,
• Wyches and their Wych weapons,
• And arguably the Archon/Archite and all their variants.

Other models are taken by preference –
• Haemonculi, our only flamer here,
• Talos is a weird one swear by it, some swear at it,
• Reavers, great at reaching out and touching that annoying indirect fire threat but expensive,
• Incubi, anti marine model but slow and expensive,
• Grotesques, designed as a meat shield and if you can use them as such then take them,
• Mandrakes, probably has the most ‘Dark Eldar’ feel of all but they lack an upgrade character and because of that the added punch that’s almost always needed.

Models that suck due to rules changes over the years –
• Hellions, they look great but are as effective as tits on a Bull,
• Scourges, now what is the point of being able to move and not shoot or shoot and not move with the Lance variety? And if you’re the cannon flavour then take warriors in Raiders and save your points.

The Battle Force IS a good starting point for a larger collection but not good if that’s your entire army.
And the trees are ok to me, just give them a good paint job and clump them in some converted terrain for a cheap instant forest.

If you want to go deeper than this then please reply back a bit more specifically and I am sure that we can all help you out.

Cheers.

[Splata]

Welcome to the True Kin.

First up the basics of collecting a DE force.
The battle force is probably a good start. You NEED the warriors. You need the raider. The jet bikes... well... they are avg. Goodish against MEQ but you may as well not have them against a swarm.

The trick with Dark eldar is that we have tin foil for armour. This means that we don't have a fall back position. If something goes wrong. It goes very wrong. By this very same token we don't pay points for this lack of armour so we can take more points in speed and power. This means that we can hit an enemy very hard where they are weakest.

So on to what is useful in our list -
Warriors - These guys are great. Scoring. Able to carry 2 heavy weapons and 2 special weapons. Not a great life expectancy and a poor LD value but keep them in cover and this gets mitigated a lot! (regular use is 10 warriors w 2 darklances)
Raiders - Just like warriors except only 1 heavy and 1 special but they can also have their own ultra fast transport. Great for capping other peoples objectives and as a support unit in combats (8 warriors 1 splinter cannon, 1 blaster, 1 sybrite with agoniser and a raider)
Wyches - Fast and somewhat hard hitting. They generally kill the enemy slowly but take very few wounds in return. Great fton line attack squad. Can take 2 blasters. Something I quite like these days as it gives a good punch. Lastly, if you don't like their minitures then you could use harliquins or witches from dark elves or some other miniture(8 wyches w wych weapons, succubus w agoniser and plasma)
Lord - Very good. Everybody sets their up differently and at different point levels but they can be really hardcore. You will however usually use another squad as backup for the lord as this will ensure he doesn't get mobbed.
Ravagers - Lethal. 3 disintegrators are Vicious. Weak armour but tehy lay down the smack these days even more so as their blasts always hit. All you have to do is find out what you killed! You can wipe out whole squads with just one of these. Imagine 2-3! (Ravager w 3 dissies)
Incubi - Not a unit I use any more. Very powerful. All with power weapons, str 4, high I and a save. These guys carve through marines. Really rip through them. Once they make combat, it has to be said at this point how much of a difference fleet makes. This alone is basically the reason I don't take them. I find I so often need that fleet move to make sure I'm goign ot make combat

Whats not so useful -
Warp beasts - lots of attacks wth a large charge range but without grenades and no armour. This means they can get to the enemy but if the enemy is in cover then you could easily loose half your squad before getting to attack meaning a loss of the assault. (3 warp beasts and 1 master is still ungodly cheap at 51 points)

Reavers - Overcosted. Can do significant damage to MEQ forces if they have a succubus but they have to be managed heavily and can only attack certain targets as they are such a small squad. While they do have a better survivability that most of our units with an alright save and a good toughness a weight of attacks can easily take them down.

Talos - Powerful and hard to kill at T7. It is also quite cheaply pointed. The one big issue wiht it is that it just doesn't fit in wiht most units in the army. Very good for defense however. I used to like them a lot as they were great out of web way portals as it mitigated the slowness of them. However now that WWP's just aren't really viable any more I don't use them. Plus using one is one less ravager.

Grotesques - Can stand up to a torrent of fire. The only issue is that they find it hard to convert this ability into anything. Ok so they don't take any damge at first, but they can't output any. Then they die to combat res. Plus they are slow and need baby sitting.

Not useful -
Scourages - Way over costed. The fact is that one squad of these can buy 2 squads of warriors and these are much much easier to kill. Plus using them is one less ravager.

Hellions - why use these when jetbikes do the save job but better? Hellglaives and a waste of my time!

Mandrakes - These guys least deserve to be here but they just can't kill stuff. They might be a fun terror weaving unit but once the enemy faces them once/twice they won't make the enemy bat an eye lid

This is my quick biased viewpoint I hope it helps

[Kelter Skelter]

from reading the codex, mandrakes seemed really cool. bummer to hear they aren't so hot

it's sounding like my prefered strategy would be to carry warriors and wyches with reavers in to quick attack and shoot up the enemy quickly and incubi with ravagers for a harder punch


in which case it seems like buying the battle force would be a waste to get if i dont want the jetbikes

[Krovin-Rezh]

The thing about starting with DE is that you really need a bunch of Raiders & Ravagers to saturate the field with too many targets and too much offense. I've currently got 6 Raiders & 2 Ravagers, and I'd still like a couple more. When starting out, and you only have 1 or 2, it can be hard to make them live long enough to do some real damage. It also means you've got to run with a bunch of ground squads.

Warriors are okay in cover, but cannot afford to get into close combat (which means: good luck against Orks, Tyranids, CSM, and Daemons), they'll be the better choice against Tau & IG though. Wyches actually need the Raider or they will be targeted before reaching CC.

The Incubi are awesome units, but are quite expensive and only do one thing very well. They hit extremely hard, but their armor only saves them from normal attacks, which means they are more for taking out large squads of troops (Ork Boyz anyone?) rather than the opponent's "hammer" unit. They will be overkill in large numbers, so I typically only go with 2-4 and make the rest of the retinue warriors.

In general, an Archite with a Wych retinue is going to be more effective than an Archon with Incubi when going up against things that your other units have trouble with: Monstrous Creatures, tough models, and units that favor power weaponry over number of attacks. The two choices are like Yin and Yang, but the wyches are more flexible.

For a competitive starting force (I'm thinking around 750 points), I suggest...

• 2 Boxes of Raiders w/ Squads
• Dracon model, which can easily stand in for a Dracite/Arcite later on.
• 1 Box of Wyches (actually I would suggest using alternate models if buying from GW, they have been having a common problem with missing pieces in these sets)
• 1 additional Raider box
• 2 Boxes of Ravagers

From there, you can add to whichever performs best for you, or you can try out the Haemonculi, Incubi, or Reavers. Incubi & Reavers, due to their costs, are best left to larger games of 1750+.

[Darthvegeta800]

Wouldn't 2 battleforces be cost-effective?

[Gardeth]

p.s. what's up with the trees in the battleforce? why?

On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS......Oh and the picture of Vect promised me that the new codex was for really real coming out next year...and then he flew off and chased my cat.

[kharandhil]

A few things you might be forgetting: do you like the current DE models? or would you prefer the new models?

How much money do you intend to spend in DE?

A new DE codex will be released in a few months, maybe a year or 2, do you want an army made of new models, old models? Maybe a mix of both.

A new army can also mean a new way better battleforce. Our current battleforce is so old and not exactly the best battleforce ever. The raider is ueful, the warriors too, but reavers aren't a unit you need in every DE army.

If you start DE now you have to be sure about what you're doing.
Fluff should remain about the same, it might change a little bit, but it should only get cooler. Unit rules will probably change for some units and stay closely the same for other units. Various DE units are already more than fine, some need some urgent changes.

Dark Eldar are a unique army both on the battlefield and as models, converting possibilities are great. If you take them you can be sure you'll be taking a very special army. This is what attracts lots of players, that and the fact that they're so evil.

[Kelter Skelter]

i really like the warrior and raider models

i love the really sharp angles, great highlighting opportunities

and as far as the fluff is concerned they remind me a lot of the "reavers" in "firefly" and "serenity" which is one of the things that makes them seem so cool to me


i know there is a new codex coming eventually but the armies im deciding between right now are DE and necron so outdated codexes dont both me. tau are my third choice, i like the idea of lots of harsh fire lines but, that's neither here nor there.

most battle forces have stuff you can't use so very few of them are "great deals"(although all of the tau box seems very usable)

im looking to spend about $200(including the codex) so really around $170 on models

im hoping to get as close to 1000pts as possible(or more) with my money, if that's possible

[KwiKwag]

On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS......Oh and the picture of Vect promised me that the new codex was for really real coming out next year...and then he flew off and chased my cat.

ROTFLMAO!

That has got to be the most accurate, funniest thing I have ever heard, I must quote that!

Now, I am going to melt down my force, breathe in the fumes and read the old testament to reveal what is going to be in the next codex - I am nobodies fool! Dan Brown, eat your heart out.

[FarmDog]

Once Space Wolves are out DE are the next to be coming out possibly early 2010.

No point in wasting your money on dull models when you could wait 2-4 months and have some right sparklers.

[Wicky]

On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS......Oh and the picture of Vect promised me that the new codex was for really real coming out next year...and then he flew off and chased my cat.

Not sure if that post should have a 'Parental Guidance' warning attached to it!

[Kelter Skelter]

played a 500pt friendly proxy game and i did pretty terrible

HQ:
Dracon
Retinue:
3 incubi
2 warriors, 1 with splinter cannon
Raider

Troops:
10 warriors w/ 2 splinter cannons
10 warriors w/ 2 dark lances

and i deployed them next to raiders because it seems if deployed WITH a raider you can only take 1 cannon or lance


partially probably because of my lame army list(i was just trying stuff out)

but i kept having problems with moving my raiders then not being able to shoot save for 12" because of damn rapid fire or moving and not being able to use any of my lances. i also accidently killed an enemy unit in CC with my HQ on my turn so they got shot up the next turn

i would try to get the raider in by moving 12" then popping out and rapid firing but i would miss nearly all of my shots or they would all get saved (shooting at dire avengers)

we were playing cap and control and i tried to rush a raider in near the end to contest their obj but it got destroyed on a 6 damage table roll (after a 4+ flat out miss!)

then i moved another one in because the game went another turn and THAT ONE got shot down(all by dire avengers)

ended the game with 1 obj a piece and i won a VP win but... not a very good win


can i get some points on how to more appropriatly spend my points and use the raiders?

i want to play a raider heavy army rather than going the jetbike or WWP path


edit: also how do i know if i have the current codex? i got it off of ebay cheap, the copyright is 1998 which i think is the most current but i can't find anything about this "slave snare" i keep hearing about

[crazy_irish]

Well frist of all, Check if you have the rules for a wych Lord in your HQ section.
But I guess, if you do not have the slave snares, then you will not have the wych weapons eiter.
I think the codexupdate was around 2001 but feel free to correct my if i am wrong.

reguarding your armylist:

First of all, you can either take raider squads or regular warriors.
If you take them with a raider you can only have 2 special weapons, and if you take em without a raider you can take 4.

if you want to have a squad with 4 special weapons on a raider you also have to take a raider squad(2 special weapons) and take their raider and give it to your warriorsquad, as in 5th edition dedicated transporters can be usesd by any squad, this "trick" is very good.

but i would also try to not mix antiInfantrie with AntiTank weapons.
Oh I see, you do not even seem to have that option.
You realy seem to have an old book.
In the "new" one, you can take up to 4 special weapons, including two new ones.
so get yourself a "new" codex as there are some many things different.

reguards

[Kelter Skelter]

if the new one was in 2001 then i defintely have the old one

i dont have a wych lord in my book which is one of the things i've read on here a bit

ugh.. as if this weren't hard enough!


can you deploy a raider as a stand alone transport vehicle? that was the way i played it then just embarked upon it on my first turn.



just realized i spelled eldar wrong in the thread title. i feel so lame.

[crazy_irish]

No, you can not buy a raider on its own. it is allways a dedicated transport, that you have to buy for your squad. I hope you did not pay that much for the old dex

[Toastitron]

The Raider may not be an independent vehicle, but the squad it was purchased for does not need to be mounted on it. So you could place the raider squad next to the raider, and on the first turn have a sniper squad embark on it.

[Kelter Skelter]

No, you can not buy a raider on its own. it is allways a dedicated transport, that you have to buy for your squad. I hope you did not pay that much for the old dex

i already said it was cheap off of ebay, like 7 or 8 dollars

[Splata]

The correct codex has a big white skull and second edition written on the cover. That is the way to tell from an ebay seller that it is the new one. I'd neg rep that ebay seller you got it off. that was a jip.

On your list. What you posted is not any where near 500 points I wouldn't think.

Did you have 2 raiders as well? as what you listed?

It would probably be better to continue in hte army list forum, but in the mean time here is somehting to think about.

Why did you do so badly (you still won but your unimpressed with what you did)?
First up. You didn't know your rules well enough to know that you could only move 6" and fire from the vehicle.
Secondly. You have a longer range than DA's, why didn't you use that? drag them out and shoot them. If you had of done that then the dracon's raider would have been within charge distance of them and you could have ripped them apart.
Third. This comes with time but learn how easy/hard it is to kill an enemy squad. You don't want ot end up in hte open in their phase. Perhaps you will have to charge two squads at once to make sure you still have opponents left in your phase.
Fourth. Well noted about the issues in your play. Continue that and you will improve to become the lord of this galaxy that is your plaything.

[Kelter Skelter]

the ebay seller made no claim it was the current edition, it was my fault i didnt try to find out if it were the one i needed or not. i really just bought it randomly a while back because it was cheap.

i had 3 raiders, 2 with warrior squad and 1 with the lord and retinue i'm pretty sure it came out to 502pt(in friendly games we always allow a 5pt over allowance)

if you move 12" in the raider then disembark you can shoot can't you? that was what i did, i didnt shoot from it.

i have a longer ranger than the DA but when you move with a rapid fire weapon your range drops to 12" that was my problem

my lord/retinue moved, fired the the raiders DL, disembarked, fired the splinter canon and pistols then charged to close combat. i didnt intend to kill them in the first turn that was a complete accident and yes over time i'll learn how fast certain units die.

[Krovin-Rezh]

my lord/retinue moved, fired the the raiders DL, disembarked, fired the splinter canon and pistols then charged to close combat. i didnt intend to kill them in the first turn that was a complete accident and yes over time i'll learn how fast certain units die.
Just remember that you can't disembark after you start shooting anything. Otherwise, that seems legal.

For a Lord w/ Retinue, an easy mistake is to take too many Incubi (because they are so cool :)).

I only ever put 2-4 Incubi and fill the other squad positions with Warriors (so that the Incubi don't die right away). Any more than that, and you're wiping out squads so fast you'll be sitting targets once all the bodies drop.

[Kelter Skelter]

i was up against 2 squads of DAs a banshee squad and a farseer so i thought i should load up on incubi to take their squads out in CC while my raider squads drove around shooting

but again i just dont know how to play raiders very well and it didnt turn out so hot