Starting DE, Need help

[Zwolfe]

Hey guys,
Ive had an interest into 40K since 3rd edition, but I never really did anything with it because I was young and didnt have a job that could support the hobby's expenses. But Now that I am in college and have a good paying job I can finally start, and I have decided to start as DE.

Now I do have a ton of ??'s. First is 2nd edition rule book the current rules for DE. Im pretty sure they are but I want to check. Also where are the rules for the wych weapons, from what I ahve gather they have changed from the rule book, because I have heard people say things about invulnerable saves, and I looked at the FAQ for DE and didnt see anything about that.

I hope to have a Army List up soon, but I kind of need these questions answered before I can really proceed.

[Krovin-Rezh]

The latest DE codex has the words "Second Edition." Otherwise, both books look very much alike.

The latest version does give wyches the Dodge ability, which is a 4+ invul save. The rules for wych weapons have been simplified so that it doesn't matter which models have which particular weapons. Overall, this made them much better, although their cost went up a little.

Wych Cults were added as an alternate list type, including rules for Wych Lords.

Reavers went down in points, but are still too expensive imo.

Hellions got a 5+ invul save against shooting if they moved, but became a little more expensive.

Vehicles got a list of upgrade options. The horrorfex and night shield are commonly used examples.

[Seeker84]

The second version of our codex also has a white skull on it saying second edition.

To start, get yourself 2 boxes of warriors, a raider, of get the Apocalypse raider force, you'll most likely set up one or two, but it allows you to expand when you need to. Get yourself an HQ model and you should be good to go. The battle force is a good place to start too, but what I listed is pretty good to start.

[Zwolfe]

Thanks for quick responses guys, Here is a quick list I came up with. I still have 100 points to spend to make 1500, Im thinking that I should turn 1 of the Warrior squads into a Raider squad, or i could spend my points into beefin up my incubi squad. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks in advance.

Oh, and one more question, does the Wych I gave the blaster lose her extra attack for the pistol, or does she have the blaster in addition to her other weapons

HQ


Archon, Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Shadow Field, Retinue
Incubi X 4 , Blaster X 2,
Raider, Desintegrator
Total 278




Elite


Wyches
Wyches X 10, Wych Weapons, Blaster,
Succubus , Agoniser, Splinter Pistol
Raider, Disintegrator
Total 223


Wyches
Wyches X 10, Wych Weapons, Blaster,
Succubus , Agoniser, Splinter Pistol
Raider, Disintegrator
Total 223




Troops


Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2, Blaster X 2
Total 110


Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2, Blaster X 2
Total 110


Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2, Blaster X 2
Total 110


Heavy
Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Total 1414

[Krovin-Rezh]

Thanks for quick responses guys, Here is a quick list I came up with. I still have 100 points to spend to make 1500, Im thinking that I should turn 1 of the Warrior squads into a Raider squad, or i could spend my points into beefin up my incubi squad. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks in advance.

Oh, and one more question, does the Wych I gave the blaster lose her extra attack for the pistol, or does she have the blaster in addition to her other weapons
By the letter of the law, the Wych still has her pistol and wych weaponry. Pistols are one of those rare things you don't have to model, so it's okay to say the standard blaster model has one.

HQ


Archon, Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Shadow Field, Retinue
Incubi X 4 , Blaster X 2,
Raider, Desintegrator
Total 278
You can save points by not taking the shadow field. It's not as necessary in a retinue. Put some Warriors here instead so you don't lose your Incubi right away. You may not need 4 Incubi either. Combat Drugs may be a better choice instead of one of the Incubi (optional). Gives you more reliable results from the Archon.



Elite


Wyches
Wyches X 10, Wych Weapons, Blaster,
Succubus , Agoniser, Splinter Pistol
Raider, Disintegrator
Total 223
You probably won't need all 10 Wyches. 8 is the most I would put in a squad outside of an Apocalypse game. They are VERY good at surviving close combat, but each Wych only adds a few S3 attacks. Your real damage is coming primarily from the agoniser.


Wyches
Wyches X 10, Wych Weapons, Blaster,
Succubus , Agoniser, Splinter Pistol
Raider, Disintegrator
Total 223
Same as previous, but you may not even need a second Wych squad. You can already take two major CC units easily without them.

Another scoring unit of Warriors for even more firepower might be a good choice instead. My latest preference is this little baby...

10 Warriors with Sybarite – poisoned blade, dark lance, blaster (or shredder)
Raider – DL (or disintegrator), horrorfex, night shield
176 pts (or 186 pts with shredder & disintegrator)

They use the night shield and 36" guns to be very hard to reach (just target the enemy's long ranged guns first). Then when the enemy gets close enough, they can rush forward, possibly pinning a unit with the fex, and using the short range guns to wreak havoc. If they need to charge, they can. The poisoned blades are cheap and effective (but less so against power armor).


Troops


Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2, Blaster X 2
Total 110

Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2, Blaster X 2
Total 110


Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2, Blaster X 2
Total 110

Good firepower hampered by low maneuverability. Sadly, the blasters won't get much of a chance to fire because you don't have a transport. They can be useful if Terminators Deep Strike next to you (if your Warriors survive their guns). This is the reason I prefer the previous unit I listed. They have to shoot down the vehicle first, and then the squad gets a chance to retaliate unless they become pinned. The Raider also provides some handy cover most times.

Heavy
Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120

Yay disintegrators! You may want at least one of these bad boys to be armed with DLs just for added insurance against mechanized armies (they're all the rage in 5th Edition).

Total 1414

Extra points can be used on night shields and/or horrorfexes. The archangel of pain and goblet of spite are also nice additions (these are arcane wargear, another addition to the 2nd codex that I forgot to mention). But re-work your units first to see what points you have.

[Zwolfe]

Ok here is a reworked list, I lower the wych count and drop blasters from the sniper squads, I also dropped the blaster from the incubi, because I need to drop 10 points, But I added to raider squads, 1 thing I read alot is that I need to have redundency plans for my DE, because they are so fragile, so I could not just drop a Wych squad. So here is a revised list for comments.




Archon, Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Plasma Grenade Retinue, Incubi X 4
Raider, Desintegrator
Total 245




Wyches
Wyches X 8, Wych Weapons, Blaster,
Succubus , Agoniser, Splinter Pistol
Raider, Disintegrator
Total 197


Wyches
Wyches X 8, Wych Weapons, Blaster,
Succubus , Agoniser, Splinter Pistol
Raider, Disintegrator
Total 197




Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2,
Total 100


Warrior Squad,
Warrior X 10, Dark Lance X 2,
Total 100


10 Warriors– , dark lance, blaster
Raider – DL ,
Total 150


10 Warriors– , dark lance, blaster
Raider – DL ,
Total 150


Heavy
Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Ravager 105, Disintegrator X 3 15,
Total 120


Total 1499

Dark Lance 8
Disintegrator 12
Units 61
Tanks 8

[Krovin-Rezh]

Looks pretty good. Try it out a few times. Then you'll know what you want to change and what you really like.

[Zwolfe]

lol unfortuantely, I will not be trying this out for some time, I am buying my army unit by unit, and getting them painted for me, cause between school, homework, and hob I dont have enough time ot assemble and paint them without it taking FOREVER, but I do hope to have everything done in 2-3 months and be playing at local store.

KK some more rules questions. Do raiders and ravagers block line of sight to each other?

[Wicky]

lol unfortuantely, I will not be trying this out for some time, I am buying my army unit by unit, and getting them painted for me, cause between school, homework, and hob I dont have enough time ot assemble and paint them without it taking FOREVER, but I do hope to have everything done in 2-3 months and be playing at local store.

KK some more rules questions. Do raiders and ravagers block line of sight to each other?

Hi mate,
One thing that I see missing are Plasma Grenades on your Wych squads, you will find that any squad that relies on their assault capabilities during the game really needs to have assault grenades so that they fight as normal when going through cover.

I prefer Splinter Cannons on Warrior squads and Dark Lances on Raiders but that’s just me.

And I disagree on the Blaster armed Wych keeping the pistol as the ‘Options’ in their entry were meant (when the Codex was written many years ago) to replace the standard weaponry.
Here the one and only standard weapon is the pistol (Wych Weapons are simply wargear and exempt from this formula) and it is ‘optioned’ out for the Blaster.

It is the same mechanism even within the most recent Space Marine codex (since its no longer part of the Core rules as such), you option out one of the Marines weapons to gain something different and I see that this has gone from a Core rule to a Codex specific one – its just that our Codex has never stated this due to the fact that the Core rules covered it way back when.

The difference here is that the Wych only has one weapon to start with so it’s horribly obvious which one has to be optioned out.

This has been debated before and what I present here is just my opinion on the matter.

Raiders and Ravagers will block LOS, there is no abstraction about this anymore.

Cheers.

[Zwolfe]

Ok blocking LOS is what I want ot hear, losing an attack isnt great, but since stock wychs are just supposed to stay alive i can handle that.

I was just kind of worried because I remember there was a point when either it was debated whether they did, or if they just straight did not block LOS. But Im glad to hear they can cause keeping my ravagers alive seems like a good idea. Does the wreckage of a raider block LOS to an functioning one? I have the rule book, but since I have read rules book from 3rd and 4th, and just now begining to learn this new edition I figured its easier to ask than try to dig and find answer.

[Wicky]

You will want to read pages 16, the grey box out in particular, 58 ‘Vehicles weapons and Line of Sight,’ and 62 ‘Vehicles and Cover – Obscured Targets.

The reasons for this is that its against forum policies to hand out rules – we can give judgments on them but not the actual rule itself.

The answer to your question is ‘yes’ the wreckage ‘can’ block LOS and when it does and doesn’t can be found on the pages quoted above.

Thanks.

[Splata]

On the blocking LOS thing.
Raiders will only block LOS if Raiders block LOS now.
ie. If you can see the ravager a little bit behind the raider you can still shoot it but it will get a 4+ cover save if it is more than 50% hidden.

What this basically means is it won't normally block LOS