Sneak peek - space wolves.

[Serbi]

A friend of mine got a hold of the new space wolves codex.... it looks and feels a lot like...

Space Wolves: The better Chaos.


Can you guys please cheer me up, and give me a reason to love chaos again? I'm feeling inadequate. :(

[Sajiisde]

Hm..... let's see the average chaos battle:

Rifts opening in space and scary *** demons pouring out slaughtering all, as khorne berserkers rip heads off, giant greater demons mow through troops like grass, insane, psycho dreadnoughts killing even their own troops, mad laughter and blaring screeching from dirge casters, horrific mutations on every marine as they charge towards you, screaming and firing bolt pistols right at your face.

Space wolves:

Grrr! We love dogs on sterrrrrroids!!

[Serbi]

One of their basic 15 point guys is almost as good as khorne berserkers in close combat.... and they're only 15 points... *frown*

[Rabbit]

Serbi, if you're referring to the Blood Claw unit, then I'd like to point out that charging Zerkers deal nearly twice as much kills against MEQs, all at I5, as compared to when these guys get the charge. I'll hold the rest of my breath until I can thoroughly examine the new Space Pup 'dex for myself.

[seismic]

Well, Their HQ seems a lot more useful, diverse and potent, however they're more expensive if memory serves. Their basic troops are better equipped and cost less. Their fast attack has a better selection and are arguably more stylish... actually there is no debate to have; The mind boggling 2 fast attack choice (If we can even call that a choice without bursting in to laughter) doesn't even come close. Their heavy support is comparable to the chaos one; Though i would tip the scales in the Wolves favor, because 3 landraiders pattern with "Power of the machine spirit" owns defilers/oblits any day of the week... Their elites are better... More wargear option...

But hey you got... ummm... errr; At least chaos don't have these ridiculous lightning claws every other model that are twice as big as the marine carrying them. Really, it looks just... silly. They'll wipe the floor with you, but man does it look dumb.

[Dethklaat]

Their heavy support is comparable to the chaos one; Though i would tip the scales in the Wolves favor, because 3 landraiders pattern with "Power of the machine spirit" owns defilers/oblits any day of the week...
That's not really fair, since 3 landraiders are easily 750pts worth of killing, and defilers are only 150 a piece.. That's like comparing the a meal from McD, to any tender steak..
- Granted, the Oblits are 675, but that's still got Some flexibility to it.
And that's not considering the cheese factor of said LR's..


But what I'd like to know is, Why play SM when you've got SW?

[seismic]

That's not really fair, since 3 landraiders are easily 750pts worth of killing, and defilers are only 150 a piece.. That's like comparing the a meal from McD, to any tender steak..
- Granted, the Oblits are 675, but that's still got Some flexibility to it.
And that's not considering the cheese factor of said LR's..


But what I'd like to know is, Why play SM when you've got SW?


I was talking about the choices between 3 patterns of landraiders (Plus whatever else they got in heavy support) being better than the defiler/oblit dilemma, not the price of said choices.

As for your second question: They seem to be a more assault or close combat oriented army, something i usually associate with Chaos marines. Some people would rather play a different theme: Speed based, infiltrate heavy ,shooty or something more unusual. For example the wolves don't have Scoring bikers or scout bikes, scoring scouts or Sternguards. They can't field 6 dreadnoughts (As far as i can tell), no thunderfire cannon or ironclad. You also have different builds with named HQ.

In the end its a question of taste. But i feel like the wolves are stepping dangerously close into chaos territory (game play wise), I.E. Close combat power armor and all that jazz.

[Henshini]

I still prefer the chaos units from the codex to the stuff in the SW dex. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to use the the SW dex for my Templars!

[Rabbit]

Space Puppies have always been the closest loyalist chapter to chaos, speaking from the point of unit configuration and the likes. Similarly, Wolves are known for having a very strong penchant for close combat, as seen in their previous codex, where they could take multiple special close combat weapons.

What's more, it's important to bear in mind that our codex was birthed during the transitional phase to 5th edition. Therefore, not everything was taken into account as it *might* have been, had our 'dex come out post-production of 5th edition rules. Hence, detailed comparisons between us and the dog boys isn't exactly a fair one.

[Serbi]

What's more, it's important to bear in mind that our codex was birthed during the transitional phase to 5th edition. Therefore, not everything was taken into account as it *might* have been, had our 'dex come out post-production of 5th edition rules. Hence, detailed comparisons between us and the dog boys isn't exactly a fair one.

That's all fine and dandy... but if I'm playing a game against a space wolves player.... an effective in game 'comparison' will be made, and I don't know if luck and/or skill will be able to help me against someone who is playing space wolves well...

[Mr_Wayne]

If you read the fluff, Space Wolves have alway been totally overkill close combat madmen who can butcher anything they touch. Even Chaos.

If the only reason you play WH40K is to win, then you can switch to the Wolves. But I like Chaos because they're Chaos, not because they're particularly good. That was just a bonus in this edition. I played themed Chaos when they sucked. Like 4th Ed. World Eaters chasing gun drones. That was fun :-(

You think Space Wolves will rock because they have good units? We will outnumber them and kick their sorry butts... if we play good enough. It's still a game of skill and we have a very good army.

If you want to catch them with their pants down bring a Land Raider/Berzerker spam list.
Like these: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/chaos-army-lists/129339-2000pt-friendly-land-raider-spamming.html
Not so fun to go toe-to-toe with. A shooty army would butcher these guys. But a overkill CC army would be beat.

[Serbi]

I like to play a game that's competitive and where it comes down to army list, skill, and a tiny bit of luck. I don't like playing a game of "Army A is better than Armies B, C, D, and E because army A is newest."

[Rabbit]

Serbi, you've been around for a while now. Surely, you remember when the chaos codex first came out. There was whining of all manner about what "was" and "was not" effective. It wasn't until months later, after the codex was well tested, that its strengths and weaknesses began to emerge.

Don't you think it's a little too early to be concerning yourself in a negative way on the power gaming aspects of Space Wolves? I mean, shouldn't we in the least test the codex first over a period of a few games, before coming to resolution? In the very least?

[hotspike18]

Serbi, you've been around for a while now. Surely, you remember when the chaos codex first came out. There was whining of all manner about what "was" and "was not" effective. It wasn't until months later, after the codex was well tested, that its strengths and weaknesses began to emerge.

Don't you think it's a little too early to be concerning yourself in a negative way on the power gaming aspects of Space Wolves? I mean, shouldn't we in the least test the codex first over a period of a few games, before coming to resolution? In the very least?

No way dude. Much more better to doomsay about it now and not have to later when GW Lolzpwns us with more Space Marine publications.

Haven't you learned anything about 40K Rabbit? :talktohand:

But really guys, Rabbit's got a good point, it's all fun and dandy to gripe against GW (and they deserve it, no doubt) but why not start a new thread that has some actual numbers and ideas thrown in where we can talk about how to defeat paticular units and combinations? If you like I'll start it myself as soon as I think of a jazzy title (like "The Weak Fight Back" or somesuch, that was a great one, hehe).

Also, if you think it's going to be so beast (and it very well may) why not proxy our models with their rules? After all, they emulate us the closest yes? I love that we're all dedicated enough to want to see Chaos stay on top and have a great, competitive codex, but, we ALWAYS see one of these threads before a new codex in 5th Edition paticularly. (Sadly, I'm seeing less and less valuable threads these days, anyone else see that?) If for no other reason than keeping Librarium a quality site, let's do something constructive. We can codex compare once we've got the numbers and some experience right?

I know whine threads are fun, and I apologize if I've offended anyone, I know what's like to see GW making crazy new codices that beast the one you've got to work with - one the reasons my longing for 40K grows dimmer and dimmer at times.

Oh, and I've just thought of a title!
Who Let the Pups Out? :poop:

hmmm...

Anyway, cheers guys! I know we can beat the pups fair and square. They deserve it for what they did in the Heresy after all. Let me know if you need any motivational speeches. I have a few good ones saved up for the new codex release.

[Demoneyeskyo]

I like to play a game that's competitive and where it comes down to army list, skill, and a tiny bit of luck. I don't like playing a game of "Army A is better than Armies B, C, D, and E because army A is newest."

I'm not too thrilled with their ridiculousness either, but would you rather be playing nidzilla against the wolves and have them use jaws of the world wold on you? I can't imagine losing 2 or more MC's to one psychic power.

also, just because its the newest doesn't mean its the best. look at the LO campaign. we dominated it! and the newest codex (IG) ranked #4 and then the space marines that GW babies finished 8th, and I know there are some amazing players on these forums.

to summarize, just wait till we play them before saying the sky is falling.

[Wolf Guard]

Ok now this is coming from someone who plays both Chaos (Slaanesh) and Space Puppies. I have seen the new codex. Yes there are some rather nasty and what some might call "beardy" choices that a SW player can take, but there is an answer and a rather simple one to each problem that a Chaos player may face. 8 times out of 10 it seems like a Vindicator will do the job.

Even if those pesky wolves get into combat with you, they will undoubtedly kill and overkill the unit they came into contact with. That means that the Blood Claws or Grey Hunter unit that was dumb enough to charge will be standing out in the open. Then they are easy prey.

[Serbi]

:( I'm just upset because it seems like it's not possible to make a list that's decent against everyone anymore.... a good IG player at my shop can totally steamroll any list I make that isn't tailored to kill IG. Plasma cannons are my bane.

[Wolf Guard]

Well use Rhino's and Terrain to your advantage.

[Serbi]

I do, but 9+ twin linked las cannons and 1-2 demolisher cannons and 2-4 plasma cannons can pretty much take out half my army in a good turn of shooting.

And it's not like I'm a bad player... I win about 75% of the games I play, and we have a fairly competitive player-base at the shop I goto. It's not like tournament level players, but most of them aren't bad.

I'm just frustrated that the army I like to play is slowing becoming less and less viable as a competitive army.

[Wolf Guard]

I'm just frustrated that the army I like to play is slowing becoming less and less viable as a competitive army.

I agree, I love my Emperors Children to death, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are losing their competative nature of play. I play against Imperial Guard players regularly. They run a whole mess of Anti-Everything weapons. How I circumvent the system is by deepstriking a 2 terminator squads (5 Termies 4 combi-melta's, Heavy Flamer and Chain Fist) right in front(Or as close as I can get it) of the Leman Russ that is giving me trouble. 4 Melta guns has never failed me yet, and if for some reason they do (and if my terminator lives) that tank cannot survive a chainfist.

Ultimately Chaos IMO Needs to utilize terminators to their advantage if they truly want to destroy some of the more pesky armor out there.

Oh and Rabbit, not sure if this is what you are looking for but the number 10 is the "perfect number".

[Mechatius]

Don't you think it's a little too early to be concerning yourself in a negative way on the power gaming aspects of Space Wolves? I mean, shouldn't we in the least test the codex first over a period of a few games, before coming to resolution? In the very least?

It all sounds awfully much like when the 5th SM codex came out and everyone a majority (myself included) was worried about Sternguard veterans and the like. Now I've played some against them with one tied-for-first in a SM vs. SM vs. CSM and 2 wins and 2 draws in one-on-ones.

Sure a lot of things may seem very powerful, and they will be, but we're not without teeth of our own.

[Left of West]

The Space Wolves Codex is a marked improvement over the Codex: Space Marines*, but it only brings them up to the level of Chaos Marines, at best. Let's make some important comparisons:

1.) Grey Hunters vs. Chaos Space Marines:

This is probably the area where Chaos Space Marines rule over Space Marines the most: Chaos Space Marine squads are much better than Space Marine Tactical Squads. But, now, Grey Hunters are in the picture. They're armed the same as Chaos Marines, the have ATSKNF, and they even get two special weapons--for a considerably lower cost. What's not to love?

Well, the Grey Hunter unit is certainly good, but it has some serious compositional problems. The Rhino and Drop Pod only hold ten models a piece. Non-mechanized Grey Hunter squads are bad (along with almost every other non-mechanized marine squad) and you can't get both a sergeant and two meltaguns with ten guys. Either you have a nine-man squad (one meltagun) with a Wolfguard of you have ten guys (two meltaguns) but if you add a Wolfguard, they no longer fit in a transport.

Your basic Grey Hunter squad ends up looking a lot like a Chaos Marine squad, only with a Mark of the Wulfen guy and Counterattack (similar to a power-weapon champion, but a little better) and eight leadership instead of re-rollable tens. ATSKNF helps, but eight is still low. This squad is a little cheaper than a similar CSM squad, but very comparable in terms of how good it is.


2.) Things that Space Wolves have that are particularly good in comparison:

Multi-meltas on Attack Bikes and Land Speeders (these are the best anti-tank in any Marine codex)

Better Land Raiders (POTMS is really good, as are the Crusader and Redeemer. Ours is cheaper, theirs are better)

Better Dreadnoughts (they're not crazy)

Better Vets (Chosen pay three points for infiltrate; Wolf Guard pay three points for an extra attack, and Logan Grimnar makes them troops)

Counterattack in their Grey Hunter squads.

Drop Pods (They're not really any better than Rhinos, but they are different and good)

Jaws of The World Wolf (a very good power)


3.) Things that Chaos has which are particularly good in comparison:

Daemon Princes (The Daemon Prince is vastly better than any Space Wolf HQ choice. There's really no comparison.)

Cult Troops (Space Wolves have nothing to compare to Plague Marines or Berserkers)

Better Terminators (Chaos terminators are cheap and effective. Wolfguard terminators are way overcosted)

Defilers (like Dreadnoughts, but, much better)

Obliterators (worse AT than bikes and Landspeeders, but much more versatile--these are good, and Wolves don't really have anything that compares.)

Lash of Submission and Warp Time (very good powers)



So, sure. The Space Wolves codex is good. It has some good stuff that ours don't. It's daunting to see Marines with a troop choice that can stand up to ours in combat (and Wolfguard, which can be troops, just beat ours in combat.)

But, we still have several important things they don't. Frankly, the Daemon Prince alone is powerful enough to keep our codex competitive. When we factor in the other particularly potent options in our army, we're not really coming out at a disadvantage. If anything in the Space Wolves codex yields them a decisive edge, it is MM Land Speeders, which are cheap and have a disproportionate effect on mech-on-mech fights (which is what our fights will almost always turn out to be).




*except bike armies. The all-bike army out of the Codex: Space Marines is actually pretty good.

[Sophia]

Space Wolves are the favoured army of furries.

LET THE GALAXY BURN.

Case closed.

[FarmDog]

One of their basic 15 point guys is almost as good as khorne berserkers in close combat.... and they're only 15 points... *frown*


So?,saying Wolves is a "better" chaos army is idiotic,i mean they both have there strong points and weaknesses.

[Rabbit]

Better Vets (Chosen pay three points for infiltrate; Wolf Guard pay three points for an extra attack, and Logan Grimnar makes them troops)


The only factor that would compel me towards agreeing would be Logan's transitioning of the Wolf Guard to troop choices. Then again, Logan adds a significant cost factor to these vets.

I don't know. I've always felt we should be making better use of our Chosen, except for the fact that our current environment is heavily weighted in favor of armor. Even then, I've found Khornate Chosen with tri specials and a fisting champ to be a very respectable spearhead support and/or daemon delivery method. This old rabbit might go as far as asserting they're the best all-around unit available to chaos players.

Incidentally, what's the leadership of Wolf Guard? Is it 8?

[Wolf Guard]

I believe its 9 actually.

[seismic]

I was expecting this issue to rise up.

I think there will always be some concern about "soon to be" & "recently" released codices. This usually pass with time, both sides needs to learn new tricks and in the end it boils down to luck/strategy/list composition. But i think the problem is not related to brute force of the codex, i think the problem's different here.

I had my chaos list in 4.0 , it rarely failed me. I'm not quite sure of my victory to lose ratio, but I'm fairly sure it was in my favor. I had my list, the typical chaos list: 2 princes, cult & troops, defiler, oblit, 1 greater daemon... done. Nothing new , original, different, nothing ... the same old boring list. Adding anything else doesn't make sense: Possessed aren't getting any better, dreadnoughts aren't getting less crazy, bikes & raptors are easily replaced by rhinos + troops. I could make a landraider list, you know to spice things up a little.

And that's the problem... for me anyways.

Since I've changed to loyalists it been a little harder to win, very difficult to make well balance lists; But i still find new and interesting details, formation or tactics to try out several months after release, and that's fun. And that's the real problem with wolves: From a single space marine legion will stem a myriad of different list, themes and strategy. You'll end up seeing terminator lists (apparently they can field terminators as troops!), Beast/cavalry lists, Speed & infiltrating strategy. Rune priest heavy tactics et cetera ... While chaos, you'll still be stuck with that same mind numbing, spirit crushing, dull and predictable list that you've been playing for the last 2 years without any means to change it in a significant way. All that time, effort and money wasted. Countless hours of modeling , painting now collecting dust while the space dingos will have so much more options, more models, HQ , fast attack, useful elites that chaos will ever have. And no matter how hard you try you'll never...

...

Damn ,Serbi i forgot you needed some cheering up... well , errrmm... lets see... hmm i got nothing. Oh, wait i know!

At least you're not as depressed as me :highfive:

There, My work here is done.

[Left of West]

The only factor that would compel me towards agreeing would be Logan's transitioning of the Wolf Guard to troop choices. Then again, Logan adds a significant cost factor to these vets.

I don't know. I've always felt we should be making better use of our Chosen, except for the fact that our current environment is heavily weighted in favor of armor. Even then, I've found Khornate Chosen with tri specials and a fisting champ to be a very respectable spearhead support and/or daemon delivery method. This old rabbit might go as far as asserting they're the best all-around unit available to chaos players.

Incidentally, what's the leadership of Wolf Guard? Is it 8?


It's nine, they're basically a bunch of veterans.

For the rest, I have difficulty believing that you feel Infiltrate to be better than an extra swing, so what is it that you like about Chosen above Wolfguard? Special Weapons? I could see that, I guess, but I'm curious to know the details of your opinion, here.

[Serbi]

It's not the wolf-guard that scare me. It's those blood-claw guys or whatever, the ones that get +2 attacks on the charge. Few of those guys + a melta + a elite wolf guy leader with a power fist in a drop pod, 207 pts, and it's a really scary unit that can easily pop a tank when they land as well as slaughter things when they get to assault...

And Bjorn. Damn. Worth every freaking point to be able to reroll who gets to go first turn.

[Intrepid]

Not counting special characters, the only thing in the SW Codex that stood out to me was the heavy use of the counterattack rule. We'll need to adjust a bit...shoot a little more, bum rush a little less...but they aren't significantly better than us. Lash alone makes a lot of their superlative CC abilities most useless and they appear to be less capable of one-hit wonder attacks (i.e., deepstriking/outflanking, spamming special weapons and then cheerfully dying) than standard Marines. I'm actually glad to see some cavalry units turn up, too. As for the characters, well, at least they make Abbadon look affordable.

Don't switch over! They're just the flavor of the month. Space Wolves only think they're superpowered mutant freaks...we're the real deal!

[Demoneyeskyo]

It's not the wolf-guard that scare me. It's those blood-claw guys or whatever, the ones that get +2 attacks on the charge. Few of those guys + a melta + a elite wolf guy leader with a power fist in a drop pod, 207 pts, and it's a really scary unit that can easily pop a tank when they land as well as slaughter things when they get to assault...

they could do all this before. in fact they could take TWO powerfists before! the only chance is they no longer have true grit and they're cheaper.

and they also cannot fire their weapons if they're within charge range. keep that in mind too.

[Rabbit]

It's nine, they're basically a bunch of veterans.

For the rest, I have difficulty believing that you feel Infiltrate to be better than an extra swing, so what is it that you like about Chosen above Wolfguard?

You're probably right: An extra attack trumps infiltrate. Although, I wouldn't make the same claim once we tally in the IoK. Then again, we're now talking about a chosen squad with an escalating price tag.

I suppose, however, my initial comparison had a hidden element I failed to reveal, which was that I was also taking into account our option of fielding a Khornate chosen squad (i.e., +1A like Wolfguard) for approximately for the same cost as our CSM unit in a rhino, thus making these chosen suitably priced subs for our basic infantry. Really, it's the cost comparison between CSM and Khornate Chosen that I was considering, probably even more than a comparison to Wolfguard.

In our last codex, I was a keen abuser of infiltrate, as were most traitors. Since it's now been relegated to just one option in our army, I tend to place a special emphasis on how rare it has become for us. As board position weighs heavily in 5th edition, it just seems to make sense that a highly customizable infiltrating squad offers a unique tactical role in deployment and securing difficult objective markers.

I'm not advocating that Chosen are better than Wolf Guard, as much as I'm convinced that Chosen are widely underrated in general.

[Lemt]

I agree chosen are great, as they can cheply carry lots of special weapons. However, WG have the option of being Troops (with a 250+ IC, however). That and being able to carry several special CC weapons make them a very interesting option.

[seismic]

I'm not advocating that Chosen are better than Wolf Guard, as much as I'm convinced that Chosen are widely underrated in general.

Not to derail the topic, but...

In my opinion, Chosen are overlooked simply because its hard to support they're usefulness (infiltrate/weapon option) adequately.

If you're using "infiltrate' in deployment: They'll be either place closer to the enemy, for a few melta or plasma shots, or they'll be deployed in response to your enemies deployment trying to get a shot at side armor or something. The latter deployment option gives a negligible bonus , nothing gamebreaking. The first option however , while more lethal is also more risky : It leaves your chosen in range of your opponents charge and rapid as well (If you're close to them they're are close to you) without any substantial back up or alternate targets, it ends up being a "suicide squad" type deal . So an unfortunate "seize the initiative" or botch rolls and your unit is a waste.

If you're going for an "out flanking" strategy you'll be taking a bit more of a risk in terms of equipment since its not guaranteed that you'll enter play at a place or time they're needed. You could hedge your bets by going with a primarily deep striking list; but again its not without considerable risk associated to it. Furthermore an "out flanking" chosen squad could easily be replace by a squad of havoc with rhino: Moving 12" smokers will almost guarantee they'll end up ,the following turn , near a priority target.

Not to sound like a skipping record; But if you had something like captain shrike infiltrating with some assault terminators, with 1/2 of your drop pods deep striking first turn near an infiltrating scout bike squad that can charge in melee first turn with some land speed getting a few shots at select targets... then you'll have a comprehensive tactic to use infiltrate or weapon savvy units (sternguards for example). But in the context of chaos, i find them hard to work with.

Similarly ,I think Wolf guards will also have an easier time getting some strategies centered around them. (nice i managed to get a line on topic ! ...i guess)

[Mr_Wayne]

Chosen are great.
It all comes down to a question of competence. Thy require skill every time you use them. Then they fail, you have failed. That's why they're not so popular, because hey remind the players of their incompetence.

[Canew]

OK, I don't play Chaos (for now... muahaha), but what's been said a few times in this thread bears repeating, and I'll echo this in similar threads in other sub-forums if necessary.

SW only SEEMS to some of you like some scary, unstoppable force about to roll over your beloved defilers, plague marines, etc. It's really not. It just happens to be the latest version, which will likely be a darned sight better than the previous version, especially considering how l-o-o-n-g fans of the space pups have been waiting (no, I don't play SW and probably won't).

Now, undoubtedly these guys will present a new challenge the likes of which you haven't seen before. You can bellyache about it, or look at it for what it is: an opportunity to learn something new about yourself and your army. No, you shouldn't change one solitary item in your lists. KEEP your armies. The trick to dealing with this new threat is not to change your LIST, it's to change YOURSELF, the player. I've been a Necron player since before 5th edition, when the grunts could blow up one of your landraiders. When that changed, I didn't whine about the "nerf." I shrugged and tried to figure out how to use my list to fight (or sometimes flat-out ignore) AV14 vehicles. So far, I have to say, I'm not the most brilliant of tabletop generals, but my win/loss record hasn't changed that much. In other words, I didn't let a change in the rules (or my opponent) change my game.

I don't care how much faith some of you have in listhammer. I stand by the belief that the general's skill is far, far more important than his tools, and a superior general with an inferior list will always, always, always win against an inferior general, even if that general has a superior list.

Case in point: When your "inferior" new codex came out, every non-Chaos player was bellyaching, much as some of you are now, about the "unfair" and "overpowered" double-lash + triple vindicator list. You guys rolled your eyes at such complaints then, because you knew it wasn't that simple. SW players (the smart ones, anyway) are doing the same thing now.

Later, once counters emerged, like keeping out of the lash's range, engaging the lash-equipped model in tarpitting close combat, and hitting those vindicators from the side by infiltrating or using fast vehicles, the complaints dropped off dramatically. Note that those tactics don't really require a radical revamp of one's list. Most players can do that now, and without investing in uber-powerful units of their own. In short, you'll learn to do the same. I'd be very surprised if, within a year, or even six months, you haven't found a way to beat this scary new army, and those of you who do it with the lists you have right now, well, those are the players I will call true masters of 40k.

[Rabbit]

seismic, I'm going to address some of your comments about the chosen, albeit how cleverly you transitioned back into the topic at hand, in a separate thread. If all goes well, I should have it up by tonight; if time gets funny, as often happens in those pesky time warps, then I'll have to post it sometime tomorrow, or even the day after.

[teplicuss]

well to be honest i also would like to see the codex, but to be honest, all new codex's seem really scary at first . And yes they are not always used correctly the first time(or 10 times). But in truth i think we need to use the codex from the orks and marines as an example. Both seemed pretty nasty when they came out. But now a days i look at a ork list and a marine list and just shrug. I know its gonna be hard, but i also know as a nurgal player i need to play smart and belive in my little squads. Puppys will hurt anyone, they did in the last 2 or so editions of the game and they will now. But now we just have to shoot them from affar and pretty much kill them befor they make contact. yes they have better stuff...every new codex always seems to get better stuff, just we as chaos need to adapt and destroy. Lash will work, warptime and higher initives, toughness...all these things help us. So lets not fear them...lets just kill those dog breath loyalists and send them with there tails between thier legs back to the false god emporer

[Serbi]

The thing that bothers me is that a lot of thing things that space-wolves are doing seem like things that Chaos does, but they do it for cheaper and/or better than chaos can.

[Mr_Wayne]

@Serbi:
Like what? What do we do that they do better?

[Demoneyeskyo]

Now, undoubtedly these guys will present a new challenge the likes of which you haven't seen before. You can bellyache about it, or look at it for what it is: an opportunity to learn something new about yourself and your army. No, you shouldn't change one solitary item in your lists. KEEP your armies. The trick to dealing with this new threat is not to change your LIST, it's to change YOURSELF, the player. I've been a Necron player since before 5th edition, when the grunts could blow up one of your landraiders. When that changed, I didn't whine about the "nerf." I shrugged and tried to figure out how to use my list to fight (or sometimes flat-out ignore) AV14 vehicles. So far, I have to say, I'm not the most brilliant of tabletop generals, but my win/loss record hasn't changed that much. In other words, I didn't let a change in the rules (or my opponent) change my game.

I don't care how much faith some of you have in listhammer. I stand by the belief that the general's skill is far, far more important than his tools, and a superior general with an inferior list will always, always, always win against an inferior general, even if that general has a superior list.


I 100% agree with this.

one of my best friends who's currently in the Navy (and who pretty much introduced my entire circle of friends to the game) plays Dark Eldar and he smokes everyone he plays. its almost unfair how badly he kills us.

[hotspike18]

Canew speaks great wisdom my fellow Chaos Lords (and Ladies). We have fought the Long War for more than 10,000 years, what have we to fear from the rearmament of yet another Chapter of the False Emperor's lapdogs? If we quake in fear from such a thing then I say that we are not fit to walk to Eightfold Path or to bear Horus's eternal legacy.

We will end them, as we have all our foes since the day we chose to walk this road.

[CainsGreatestFear]

I am excited about Space Wolves getting a new codex. From a quick peek it looks like they will be a real force again, as they very well should be, but they will hardly be unbeatable. I have personally found a good amount of balance in recent codexes. People at GW obviously love the Wolves, and there is a ton of fluff to make them even more attractive than some of the other chapters. I look forward to a new challenge, with relish. Their old codex was so outdated our Space Wolf playing pals could not stay on the board in many recent games, and were often rightfully frustrated.

IG got a kick in the pants, and now our IG friends can sometimes whomp on us -- not all the time, but sometimes, whereas for a while there we kicked their butt non-stop. It wasn't even fun, for us or for them. The new codex made it a game again against IG = good!

Every race should have special stuff to make them unique and powerful. If not, everyone would choose the same army! That is part of what I find exciting about the game. I like it when new powers pop up, so I can figure out how to play against them.

Chaos has so much variety, and so much close combat prowess, I can't see any army dominating us. Sure we may have the wrong stuff on the board at times, but there is too much to choose from in CSM to easily get bored.

If you want to face real close combat monsters, play against Daemons -- they can really put the stomp on you in CC. Space Wolves will take a beating in CC against them as well. We haven't been the best at CC since Daemons came out, so Wolves are just one more CC-savvy competitor.

If you want to really find out what being overmatched looks like try playing Tau with basically no CC at all (I find kroot to be pitiful in 5th). You simply can't blow people off objectives with all the cover in 5th (unless you are IG), and you certainly aren't going to take it from them beating them over the head with Pulse Rifles. So many scenarios revolve around objectives, you are hamstrung by default.

This is another case of "glass half full" on my part, I understand, but it is a choice we all make -- say "whoa is me" and gnash our teeth, or smile and enjoy the challenge.

It certainly seems more Chaosy to enjoy the challenge.

Remember, Chaos didn't get worse, nor did we all turn into worms overnight -- the Wolves just got better than they used to be, and they darn well needed it!

[crazyrpger]

I wanted a look at the wolf codex before I commented here... I had a long sit down with it, and I can comfortably say that I am upset.

Why? You ask.

Our codex is not weak. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

What galls me is the options. They have them. We don't.

Yeah, sure, we have units to choose between, but most of those units are obviously most useful in certain configurations. They have lots of units that have lots of choices as to how they can be effective.

For example Grey Hunters (their supposed CSM analogues) can be either a shooty unit with 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol that rapidfire and then recieve a charge (with no detriment, thanks to counter attack), a cc rushing rhino rider unit with a melta, a plasma pistol, a power fist and a wolfguard leader (or even add an hq for more death), a drop pod unit with 2 meltas and a powerfist so they blow up a tank and then recieve a charge (again, with no detriment). That's not to mention the fact that you can make one guy in each squad into a rending werewolf or that you can add a banner that lets you re-roll 1's for a turn. That's also not to mention that they'll never be run down in combat and rarely fall back off the board. Or that they have a slight advantage during night fight. And, most of these units cost less than or the same as a moderately effective CSM unit.

Now listen: I've played against wolves a lot since 5th came out. In 4th, it's true they had trouble. 5th edition really gave them a boost (good players could easily dominate). They needed a new codex much less so than we do (and we really don't need one that bad, we all want one, but we don't need it).

I guess I'll just have to wait until the pendulum sings back to us. Although, by that time, I'm sure GW will have switched back into "Well, people keep complaining about codex creep" mode.

I hate complaining, and I don't think this is the end of the world, but it is a slap in the face to those of us who play Chaos (at least that's how I see it).

Anyways, someone earlier on made the comment about good generals being able to beat anything. Great advice. However, it may be getting harder.

[Serbi]

I 100% agree with this.

one of my best friends who's currently in the Navy (and who pretty much introduced my entire circle of friends to the game) plays Dark Eldar and he smokes everyone he plays. its almost unfair how badly he kills us.

I have a Deldar friend who used to smoke me hardcore everytime we played, but then I learned how to beat deldar, because they're very weak in certain specific ways, and I exploited that.

Anything in 3+ armor isn't weak in those ways. They're just not weak. And the SW dex keeps things relatively cheap too, so I can't just focus on expensive units or whatever.

You can be the greatest general on the planet, but if you bring ten sporks to fight a tank, you won't win, I'm sorry.

(Not to say chaos are sporks by any means, but we're turning more into a looted wagon than a vindicator)

[Henshini]

If Tom Hanks can beat a tank with socks, I'm sure someone can beat them with sporks ;)

[Wolf Guard]

I guess I'll just have to wait until the pendulum sings back to us. Although, by that time, I'm sure GW will have switched back into "Well, people keep complaining about codex creep" mode.

I hate complaining, and I don't think this is the end of the world, but it is a slap in the face to those of us who play Chaos (at least that's how I see it).


I agree it is a slap in the face to chaos players, I love my Emperors Children army and wish that the chaos codex would have gotten slightly more love when it was released but it didnt, but if it makes you feel better some of the writters said it was a dissapointment.
When the Chaos codex gets redone in a few years im sure it will all be made up for.