Being Knighted

[Mr.Blonde]

Hey LO. I'm heavily considering starting GK and wanted some advice before I jump out the window.

I've always wanted to play a 'good guy' army and one that was very elite, (and thus cheaper to buy, correct me if I'm wrong but I did the calculations and the 1500 pt list I came up with will cost me under 300$ U.S. not bad IMO), and it seems to me that the Grey Knights are both. They also seem Fairly competitive and are downright gorgeous to boot IMO.

Anyway, the list I came up with looks something like.... An inquisitor and friends with some bells and whistles.......A unit of 5 termies for choppin ........20 power armored GK for choppin AND shootin ...........10 stormtroopers( I figured 10 was max squad size) for babysittin and shootin.........A dreddy for tankbusting............And possibly a Land Raider for tankbusting and transporting

The total list weighs in at about 1500 pts. Now, obviously, I'm terribly new to GK and I'm probably making all sorts of noob mistakes, but thats why I'm here. So please give any tips advice and opinions that you may have on my preconcieved notions about the Grey Knights. Thanks a million.

[nichodemus10]

If you are prepared to lose a lot of games I would say jump in. GK are not the best list, and the most competitive way to play them is with 2 or 3 land raiders so that your GK can't get targeted (someone else will post a link). Your list looks fine for a fun list to play among friends, but if you need to win to have fun I wouldn't play GK. The problem is that everyone else has had their prices re-costed and we have not so you over pay for everything (GKs cost more than plague marines, but get beat by them in both CC and Shooting; it is mostly the same with other units in the game.)

GK are fun, but difficult to play as their eliteness makes every loss a big one. And for all of their best of the best traits they aren't the best at anything; just better than what your weakness is (when rated based on efficentcy).

[Mr.Blonde]

If you are prepared to lose a lot of games I would say jump in. GK are not the best list, and the most competitive way to play them is with 2 or 3 land raiders so that your GK can't get targeted (someone else will post a link). Your list looks fine for a fun list to play among friends, but if you need to win to have fun I wouldn't play GK. The problem is that everyone else has had their prices re-costed and we have not so you over pay for everything (GKs cost more than plague marines, but get beat by them in both CC and Shooting; it is mostly the same with other units in the game.)

GK are fun, but difficult to play as their eliteness makes every loss a big one. And for all of their best of the best traits they aren't the best at anything; just better than what your weakness is (when rated based on efficentcy).

Its not so much that I'm prepared to lose alot of games as winning isnt everything to me.
But I'm afraid I dont follow. I'm planning on fielding about 1500 pts. are you suggesting that I put 2-3 Land Raiders in an army of that size?

Also, the GK seem to me, to be great on paper, theyre stats really do seem to be top of the line, I would think that they would trounce the DeathGuard in CC but you say no? Perhaps you could give me a specific example of how they arent the best of the best

If you say that theyre fun to play then thats good enough for me, but I have to admit something seems a litte lost in translation. I understand that 3rd ed. armies are having a hard time but out of all of them I would think that the GK would be doing the best( I play Necrons myself), just a little confused.

[jy2]

If you are prepared to lose a lot of games I would say jump in. GK are not the best list, and the most competitive way to play them is with 2 or 3 land raiders so that your GK can't get targeted (someone else will post a link).

Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters/175985-considering-daemonhunters-3rd-army-have-questions.html

When I first started playing DH, I would lose my fair share of games. Ever since I started using GKLR's, I started winning more. It's true. DH are most competitive when they're using LR's to protect their precious few troops.

Here are 2 battle reports of my Grey Knights using LR's:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/177097-1500pts-grey-knights-vs-orks-w-nobz.html

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/179426-2-daemonhunter-battles-forced-spam-my-land-raiders.html

But that's not to say that GK's in LR's are the only build. As a matter of fact, with the amount of melta-toting squads out there nowadays, the new competitive GK-build include Inquisitorial Storm Troopers as well:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters/176285-ists-making-comeback.html

It's a lot of information to absorb so I'll leave it at that for the moment.
----------

Its not so much that I'm prepared to lose alot of games as winning isnt everything to me.
But I'm afraid I dont follow. I'm planning on fielding about 1500 pts. are you suggesting that I put 2-3 Land Raiders in an army of that size?

You don't have to, but LR's are the only transports GK's can use (besides inducted IG chimeras). And GKLR's with their new Power of the Machine Spirits are great. 2 LR's are good enough in 1500pts.



Also, the GK seem to me, to be great on paper, theyre stats really do seem to be top of the line, I would think that they would trounce the DeathGuard in CC but you say no? Perhaps you could give me a specific example of how they arent the best of the best.

GK's have great stats, but honestly they are not a cc-army. They are just too expensive and a lot of units will own them in cc. Moreover, they are just as fragile as regular marines and do not have grenades. Instead they are a "finesse" army that needs a lot of good strategy to be played well.



If you say that theyre fun to play then thats good enough for me, but I have to admit something seems a litte lost in translation. I understand that 3rd ed. armies are having a hard time but out of all of them I would think that the GK would be doing the best( I play Necrons myself), just a little confused.

If you like a good challenge, then they are fun to play. If you want the easy win, then they are not the army for you. I find it more gratifying when I win with them than with some of my other armies, as with them I constantly have to strategize more to pull out the V. Of the 3rd ed armies, only Witch Hunters and Dark Eldar are still highly competitive on a regular basis. DH and necrons are a struggle normally IMO.

[nichodemus10]

Also, the GK seem to me, to be great on paper, theyre stats really do seem to be top of the line, I would think that they would trounce the DeathGuard in CC but you say no? Perhaps you could give me a specific example of how they arent the best of the best.

Well a full squad of GK is 275 points without weapon upgrades (which full squads shouldn't take). 10 plague marines cost 230, champ with fist is 270, 260 with 2 plasmaguns, and if they are feeling spendy 300 for both. In hand to hand GK go first with 18 normal attacks and 3 power weapon attacks:hit on 3s, wound on 3s, 3+save, 4+ feel no pain. The first 18 kill 1 (maths out to 1.3) and the justicar does the same 1.3. Then they fight you 14 normal, and two fist for the same 2 wounds you just dealt. You continue to fight down an even fight.

That is with you charging (thank goodness for the GK truegrit rule because the old rule would only give you one attack per guy when you charge) and them not taking any shots first. Storm bolters also seem great for shooting but again you get 20 shots, and math out to just below .75 of a wound; When they shoot you with just 10 shots they get more than a wound and that is if they don't use plasma (and are out of rapid fire range). And the way it turns out you normally get rapid fired before you get to charge.

The problem with GK is that they should be better at something than everyone and that isn't quite true (thought for the most part), and because they are footsloggers you don't really get to dictate whether the style of combat unless you take landraiders. Which gets expensive (point wise) and makes games really slow (though more chess like than checkers).

That being said I do enjoy playing them, but if I lose a land raider early the game does get boring pretty fast as they race their faster assaulty units at me will shooting my exposed troops with their better shooters.

[Emp.]

Yea I'm gonna have to disagree with the above statements about "losing a lot of games." I feel as though it reflects the player's skill level if you really keep losing playing the same army.

You'll struggle to learn tactics in the beginning because it's not a cookie-cutter army like SM, horde Ork, IG, static Tau, etc. You have limited troops, you need to maneuver well, know when to assault, and when it's better not to. Learn your special rules, shrouding will save lives when you need it most. When you get basics down-pact you'll see yourself doing better and you'll feel better as well knowing you can compete with a "mediocre/losing" (as the haters say) army. The more you play with the same list the more you'll learn the ins and outs of it, than eventually you can just grin and smile as opponents say "wow, you came to a tournament with daemonhunters? might as well have given to a charity" as you massacre them on objective missions and place higher in tournaments (yes that was a real quote i receive with that result in the end). You'll get mocked, but you'll be revered at the same time for having the brazen to wield such a force.

P.S. - maybe it's just me, but I always roll better when I'm playing the puritan holyness.

[jy2]

Btw, this is Emp's double-LR grey knight list which, I must say, is pretty good:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters-army-lists/177404-1500-upcoming-tournament-gks.html

[number6]

Btw, this is Emp's double-LR grey knight list which, I must say, is pretty good:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters-army-lists/177404-1500-upcoming-tournament-gks.html
It's good for a pure GK list, but that doesn't actually make it a "good" -- as in "competitive" -- army. And I say this having nearly won a 1500 pt tournament (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/155067-gks-almost-win-con-north-rtt-1500-pts.html) several months ago with a pure GK army.

It's a rock army. There are opposing armies (e.g., Orks, Necrons) that it will smash. And there are opposing armies (e.g., IG, Tau) that will smash it.

Which is to say it isn't balanced. There's only so far excellent generalship can take you when you play with a rock. Even moderately-skilled opponents with a truly balanced force can take it to you.

If you really want to play DH, I strongly suggest you play IG and ally in GKs to your liking. Seriously, you won't miss out on any more GKs than what you could be taking in a pure DH army list these days. Check out the links in my sig -- one of which was pointed out by jy2 above -- for the kinds of DH builds that are truly balanced and competitive.

[Emp.]

6 is a hater. ;) . As you can see DH players have varying opinions. To be more competitive (but more cookie cutter) you'll need to induct IG or use ISTs as above have stated. But if you want more of a challenge, puritan at heart means a W from the start! Not always, but if you make mistakes you will pay dearly as there are no sacrifical models and if you lose a squad, you lose quite a portion of your army.

~ Faith in the pure, better rolls for sure. ~

[V3xx]

I also play Necrons, and Grey Knights lured me to collect them, just because of how much i liked their models. My recent victory with my DH's was against a horde army of Orks, playing for kill points I won 7-2. But that was thanks to the Vindicare assassin and my GKGM.

If you really want to play with DH's, may I suggest an Inquisition army that has WH's as the parent list just take the min requirements, and maybe an exorcist or two for anti armour, then take your DH's as allies (take a DH Inquisitor lord with teleport homer, stick him in a land raider, and them teleport all your TGK/FAGK's in on his position), play afew games with a setup your happy with, then if you find that your army lacks something add few units of either inducted SM or guard to fill the requirement :)

[Emp.]

take a DH Inquisitor lord with teleport homer, stick him in a land raider, and them teleport all your TGK/FAGK's in on his position)

I just want to clarify on this, note that the Inquisitor needs to be on the table when deep-striking is rolled to use the teleport homer, he can't be in the LR when you choose to use this.

[V3xx]

I just want to clarify on this, note that the Inquisitor needs to be on the table when deep-striking is rolled to use the teleport homer, he can't be in the LR when you choose to use this.

It doesnt say you can't use the homer if the bearer is in a vehicle, just that the model has to be on the table at the beginning of the turn its used.

[Emp.]

It doesnt say you can't use the homer if the bearer is in a vehicle, just that the model has to be on the table at the beginning of the turn its used.

Yes exactly. Models inside a transport are not considered on the table at the time of reserves/deep-striking. Same concept as Eldar wishing the cast fortune on a squad that just came in from reserve, it can't happen. Spells are cast before movement phase and the model must be on the table, from reserves though to move onto the table you must literally move onto the table and thus you're already in the movement phase.

[V3xx]

But models can still shoot from a transport vehicle? The Model would count as being on the table just in a vehicle, no?

[jy2]

Yes exactly. Models inside a transport are not considered on the table at the time of reserves/deep-striking. Same concept as Eldar wishing the cast fortune on a squad that just came in from reserve, it can't happen. Spells are cast before movement phase and the model must be on the table, from reserves though to move onto the table you must literally move onto the table and thus you're already in the movement phase.

This is a question which I can honestly say that I'm not sure how it would actually work. I'm leaning towards V3xx, as I believe that powers can still work in vehicles. Thus, if you have an Inq w/mystics in a LR, their special power would still work and you would be able to measure from the hull of the LR, thus giving you slightly more range. The wording "on the table" is used so that you cannot claim the power if, let's say, you put your unit with the homer in reserves. Also, if it literally has to be "on the table", then if you were to put the homer in some ruins, wouldn't it not work? It is not "on the table" but rather on some ruins which is on the table. Likewise, if your unit is in a transport, it would be on a vehicle on the table. But like I said, I haven't had too much experience with teleport homers...the few people I have played with homers were not knowledgeable about them.

I've posted a question regarding this in the rules help forum http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-rules-help/180358-teleport-homers-transports.html#post1568976.

Also, technically, DH teleport homers actually do nothing. So if you're playing them like other teleport homers, you're already not playing them RAW-wise.

[Mr.Blonde]

Thanks for all of the advice. I have my heart pretty much set on the above list as there is a good variety of fun units and the modeling and painting presents some gorgeous opportunities.

As far as the competitive aspect of it, well, lets just say that I'm okay with taking some losses in the name of the inquisition. The list has a Land Raider wich, judging from some of the tactica I've found in this forum, seems to give the army more punch and the Storm Toopers also seem to flesh out the list a bit more.

I guess the only question I still have is, besides their lack of troops, what are the Grey Knights major malfunction? Their stats still frighten me, S6 power weapons, WS5, Shroud, Storm Bolters willy nilly. Is there something I'm missing? Why are they allegedly doing so bad now?

[V3xx]

I guess the only question I still have is, besides their lack of troops, what are the Grey Knights major malfunction? Their stats still frighten me, S6 power weapons, WS5, Shroud, Storm Bolters willy nilly. Is there something I'm missing? Why are they allegedly doing so bad now?

The main thing I have trouble with when using my Grey Knights is that they die like a Space Marine. Despite their quirks, at the end of the day they are still T4 with a 3+ save and 1 wound.

[Mr.Blonde]

The main thing I have trouble with when using my Grey Knights is that they die like a Space Marine. Despite their quirks, at the end of the day they are still T4 with a 3+ save and 1 wound.

Rep for you for putting it so clearly and simply. That answer makes complete sense to me. So Grey Knights problem is in the defence department. well put, but what about the general consensus that they arent all that great offensively either. Am I to believe that the GK really have nothing going for them?

[V3xx]

Rep for you for putting it so clearly and simply. That answer makes complete sense to me. So Grey Knights problem is in the defence department. well put, but what about the general consensus that they arent all that great offensively either. Am I to believe that the GK really have nothing going for them?

Thanks :)

You can only give the justicar frag grenades aswell so they're stricking last if you charge someone in cover.

They do have things going for them, if you can get them to survive the first round of combat I find that they'll win the fight 9/10 times, providing theres no power weapons being used against them. They get defence against psychic attacks becase of the Aegis special rule, they have shrouding, and a couple of cool abilities that put Daemons at a disadvantage (go figure!), they also have true grit ability meaning they wield their storm bolters like pistols which means you get +1 attack for Grey Knights in combat wearing power armour, though you don't get the bonus for charging.

[jy2]

One thing I noticed is that you did not have a GK Hero. In order to legally field a GK dread or LR, you need a hero as 1 of your HQ choices. Any GK Terminator will do as a hero.




I guess the only question I still have is, besides their lack of troops, what are the Grey Knights major malfunction? Their stats still frighten me, S6 power weapons, WS5, Shroud, Storm Bolters willy nilly. Is there something I'm missing? Why are they allegedly doing so bad now?

There's nothing wrong with the GK's actually. Besides the fact that they don't have grenades and only the Justicar's NFW is a power weapon, I think GK's are some of the best troop choices around. They will own most other troop choices in a straight-up fight.

The problem is not with the GK's. They are fine. The problem is in the way 5th edition is played nowadays, which is mech. Footsloggin is still viable, especially with the GK's shrouding, but you're at a real disadvantage because:

1) lack of mobility.

2) lack of protection.

3) vehicles are now harder to destroy.

4) vehicles allow you to dictate when and where assaults take place. For example, you wreck my vehicle and force me to disembark. Next turn I shoot and assault you.

Most other MEQ armies (besides Necrons) can mech-up. GK's can only do so by using LR's or by stealing inducted IG chimeras (which isn't all that bad, but just forces you to play with allies).

[Mr.Blonde]

You guys sure are helpful. I have to say that out of all the other forums I have asked noobie questions at, yours has been by far the friendliest and most informative, it seems like you guys are more than happy to share what insight you've gained, and you all seem so likeminded and agreable. Also thanks jy2 for the technicality on the HQ, I was not aware of that. Thanks to all of you guys. After this post, I sure look forward to becoming a knight.

[Emp.]

Of course, we're all one big happy family here. All likeminded. All straight forward and kind to eachother. I'm sure everyone agrees with me that Knights are the bomb.

P.S. - Chaos sucks ;)

P.P.S. - jy2 sucks 2 ;)

[Hockeyman506]

Pure GK is an interesting army to play from what I've seen and read. Personally I haven't been able to as I am seriously lacking the funds for it.

I always play GKs with allies. With Imperial Guard they are a downright deadly combination. The list I've been toying around with has a Grandmaster, two GK Termie squads, some ISTs, a pair of landraiders, two IG platoons, a few chimeras, and a Leman Russ.

Ha, found the link: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters-army-lists/178932-2000-point-dh-ig.html

As a completely shameless plug ( I apologize for this), I am trying to get sell a bunch of Power Armored Grey Knights (2 Jusicars, 2 Incinerators, 2 Psycannons, 14 Normals) and some Terminator Psycannon arms (5 in total) that I haven't been able to sell on Ebay or Craigslist for a price I find reasonable if you're interested.

[Mr.Blonde]

Pure GK is an interesting army to play from what I've seen and read. Personally I haven't been able to as I am seriously lacking the funds for it.

I always play GKs with allies. With Imperial Guard they are a downright deadly combination. The list I've been toying around with has a Grandmaster, two GK Termie squads, some ISTs, a pair of landraiders, two IG platoons, a few chimeras, and a Leman Russ.

Ha, found the link: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters-army-lists/178932-2000-point-dh-ig.html

As a completely shameless plug ( I apologize for this), I am trying to get sell a bunch of Power Armored Grey Knights (2 Jusicars, 2 Incinerators, 2 Psycannons, 14 Normals) and some Terminator Psycannon arms (5 in total) that I haven't been able to sell on Ebay or Craigslist for a price I find reasonable if you're interested.

Yes, I am interested very much.

[number6]

You guys sure are helpful. I have to say that out of all the other forums I have asked noobie questions at, yours has been by far the friendliest and most informative, it seems like you guys are more than happy to share what insight you've gained, and you all seem so likeminded and agreable. Also thanks jy2 for the technicality on the HQ, I was not aware of that. Thanks to all of you guys. After this post, I sure look forward to becoming a knight.
Thanks for the complement! We know how to agree to disagree here like normal adults. ;)

And we were all "noobs" once.

Besides, limitations or not, we all know we have the coolest force in 40K. The more people that play it, the better.

Welcome!

[winginson]

Hey, who knows maybe a new DH or combined Inquistion codex will come out soon, and will re-cost the GKs, make them truly competative for 5th ed, and cause GW to make even more awesome sauce GK models!

*drool*

*thud*

[ikbuh]

Hey, who knows maybe a new DH or combined Inquistion codex will come out soon, and will re-cost the GKs, make them truly competative for 5th ed, and cause GW to make even more awesome sauce GK models!

*drool*

*thud*

Possibilities in an Inquisition codex make me drool, even though some might never happen.
Faithful Grey Knights, Ordo Xenos, Artificer Armor sisters? :dance::fingers-crossed:

[jy2]

Honestly, I don't think the knights need a whole lot of change. You can forget about faithful grey knights...ain't fluffy and ain't gonna happen. What would make me happy:

- frags included with GK's
- deep-striking GK's a troop choice
- venerable dreads
- GM w/WS6 & Eternal Warrior
- ability to induct more IG's (maybe different russes, valkyries/vendettas and vets)
- maybe shrouding for our dreads also
- maybe a higher-powered (S8-9 AP3) psycannon or something similar
- maybe Forgeworld Grey Knight Land Raider Redeemer (w/psycannons and incinerators)

Otherwise, they are alright in my book.

[nichodemus10]

Honestly, I don't think the knights need a whole lot of change. You can forget about faithful grey knights...ain't fluffy and ain't gonna happen. What would make me happy:

- frags included with GK's
- deep-striking GK's a troop choice
- venerable dreads
- GM w/WS6 & Eternal Warrior
- ability to induct more IG's (maybe different russes, valkyries/vendettas and vets)
- maybe shrouding for our dreads also
- maybe a higher-powered (S8-9 AP3) psycannon or something similar
- maybe Forgeworld Grey Knight Land Raider Redeemer (w/psycannons and incinerators)

Otherwise, they are alright in my book.

I agree with most of these, I just think that without them we are not alright.

However I like the no heavy weapons for GK, and think Inqisitorial heavy weapons teams or orbital strikes to take out armor would be nice.

And I am tired of everything getting frags...I know we need them, but why even have cover if everyone gets frags.

Shrouding for dreads might be too powerful

and most importantly a way to reliably take out a sould grinder.

[ikbuh]

I agree with most of these, I just think that without them we are not alright.

However I like the no heavy weapons for GK, and think Inqisitorial heavy weapons teams or orbital strikes to take out armor would be nice.

And I am tired of everything getting frags...I know we need them, but why even have cover if everyone gets frags.

Shrouding for dreads might be too powerful

and most importantly a way to reliably take out a sould grinder.

I would like our Dreads to be elites, and I don't think shrouding on a dread would be to bad actually, infact it would make them more viable.

I would actually like a rule similar to Daemons where our stuff can deepstrike in first turn considering that's what grey knights do in all the fluff.

[Mr.Blonde]

I just got my terminators and I'm ready to start modeling my Grey Knights. I'm going to convert Grey Knight Terminators using the plastic kit.(Assault Termies). I'm only waiting on a couple of bits and I'll begin.

Anywho, the cool part is that I'm going to take photos of my army from start to finish "documenting" my progress as I go and posting it periodically on this site. Not only that, but I also plan to involve my fellow Knight players in the creative process and get feedback aswell.

So my first challenge(albeit a minor one) is names. Grey Knight Terminators are in short supply as each one is like a hero in his own right, the equivalent to some leaders in other armies. Thus, it seems only fitting that they be treated as such, so, in an effort to do just that I'm tasking you guys with coming up with awesome names for my Terminators. I'm only fielding five thus far so you can suggest names for all of them or just one or a few.

If I pick your name it will be inscribed in fine detail on parchment on the left or right shoulder pad and thus, immortalized forever in my army list and battle reports, and the pictures I post on the site. So, thats it, post those names, thanks, and good luck.

[V3xx]

So my first challenge(albeit a minor one) is names. Grey Knight Terminators are in short supply as each one is like a hero in his own right, the equivalent to some leaders in other armies. Thus, it seems only fitting that they be treated as such, so, in an effort to do just that I'm tasking you guys with coming up with awesome names for my Terminators. I'm only fielding five thus far so you can suggest names for all of them or just one or a few.


Thats proberly my biggest challenge when painting GK's is coming up with the names and heraldry for each one. However I shall rise to your challenge: Alexios, Tactitus, Eran, Aias, and Lugos :soldier:

[jy2]

I've always liked the Camelot names:

Launcelot
Galahad
Gawaine
Perceval
Arthur (Grandmaster)


Here are others I like:

Greek Giants

Atlas
Cronus
Prometheus
Daedalus
Epimetheus

[eadipus]

if you have one with TH/SS you should call him Pango

[Mr.Blonde]

V3xx, great names, I've already chosen one, wish I could pick them all but I want others to post their ideas as well.
Jy2 good idea with the themes, I might follow a similar pattern for my regular knights. Lol....Pango.

[eadipus]

Pango is Latin for hammer :)