Help - Choosing army

[Kail]

Hello, Kail here (new guy)

Bought some miniatures over the years - but i have now come to the point of choosing my army. I got a dragon figure which i would like to use as a mount for my army. - i got access to the high elf army book (not the latest edition, so that is not going to help me). I will buy miniatures according to the help i get, and i will take my time to decide

But - i want an army which includes

* very hard hitters - do not care if they are ranged, magic, or melee.
* Access to cheap troos and some ranged infantry
* not ogres, or orcs (practically the only 2 races i wont play)
* good ammounts of good elite infantry
* access to good lores - preferable of the destructive kind
* an army which can field awe inspiring lords/mages
* can use dragons - or anything that can be substitued by a dragon
* dont care if the army is fast moving, brittle - or the opposite
* i will prefer elves, vampire counts, and chaos, and i dont know if chaos can field a dragon, but i think vampires can have undead ones. - but say your oppinion.
edit:
* and hard hitters can also include war machines

[Digger]

dragons are available to
High elves
Wood elves
Warriors of Chaos (mutated chaos dragons)
Vampires (Zombie Dragons)
Dark elves
orcs have wyverns... thats a mix of dragons and ducks
anyways...


hey! thats exactly the ones you allready mentioned >.<

- High elves have quite hard hitters like dragon prince cavalry, lion chariots and star dragons.
They have an allways attack first rule, which is really nifty.
They have plenty of archers available, and the repeater bolters
In grand tournaments the most feared high elves are called 'Star dragon death stars'
Magicwise high elves have alot of options, very often ending with high magic or Heavens lore.
downside: They do not really have cheap troops. i believe the cheapest elf is about twice the cost of a chaos marauder.

- Wood elves also have some heavy hitters, treemen, dragonriders and (support) wizards, but its not their greatest strength.
They have alot of archery and sorcery, but the army will be very dependand on mobility and tactics. i believe the highest scoring wood elves have alot of dryads and eternal guard, supported by wizards and light cavalry
downside: they end up being very soft when you do not outmanouver your enemy

- Vampire counts are a new army, they score very high at the tournaments.
Their characters are very powerfull, even without a zombiedragon.
They have quite cheap troops, not as cheap as you might expect, because everything causes fear and has no psychology. The necromancers can raise the dead (sometimes faster then enemies can take them down)
The black knights and Blood knights are extremely powerfull cavalry and they have a very very diverse choice of suporting units. (ethereal ghosts, Vhargulf, grave guard, Black coach etc)
downside: the general is also the root of the army and must be protected well. if he should die, the army starts to crumble. He's easily protected, but then he wont be sitting on a dragon charging solo.

- Chaos warriors have extremely powerfull infantry and cavalry.
Little archery, i can only think of the rare hellcannon monsters
their characters areamongst the toughest to find, and you have the choice to give them a mark. If you make one of tzeentch or nurgle, your magic can become very scary, if you have khorne characters, you will end up with heroes on juggernauts crushing anything wether you want to attack it or not. Or you mix it.
They can have very cheap core, marauder infantry and chaos hounds. and the chaos knight cavalry can be so strong it is just insane!
Most seen chaos warriors in tournies are lots of cavalry and hounds, (either with proper magic, or fully khorne) supported by hellcannons. anyhow, for a new armybook, they score surprisingly low at tourneys
downside: There are so many choices for elites and extra upgrades that are great!
thats also a trap to walk into, because its very easy to spend too much points on just a few units and end up being outnumbered 10 to 1.

Dark elves:
same as the other elves really :p
except they have hydra's and hate everything they see.
reaper bolters and repeater crosbows make good archery/artillery
raptor cavalry is ok, a bit heavier, but slower than the other elves' heavy cav.
The characters are good. They have some items available that are just utter destruction (powerfull). Thats what you get when you put some egocentric elves together
dwnside: nobody likes dark elves (ok... i admit. its just me..)


i would say go for the coolest models, the ones you might actually like to paint
Dont let others tell you what to take though:p
Good luck deciding

[Kail]

Thank you :) very good information you gave there.

i will def choose the army myself myself - but what people say here will have an effect on my choice.

atm i am a bit in between, since i like all these armies and are willing to paint them:

High elves
Dark elves (heard there assassins can be quite scary, can i get some confirmation)
Vampire counts

- got some work to do, so will not be back until later

and ps: i dont care if i am outnumbered
:)

[notabot187]

Dark elves:

Dark elf assassin can indeed be very scary. They cost like a combat hero, and can be specialized to kill anything. Rank and file clearer? yes. Character killer? yes. Ranged death? yes. Monster slayer? a bit tough, but there is a way to kit it out for that. The best part is they don't count towards any FOC slots. So you can have you magic and your combat too.

Dark elves also have the advantage of having a large variety of viable builds. With cheap core, which includes fast cav, they are able to splurge on specials. They are able to bring heavy magic without taking many characters, and cheaply too. The hydra is a bargain.

The 5 lores they have access to are offensively oriented. Death, metal, fire, shadow, and darkness. Of those I haven't used shadow, since the #1 isn't good. The others are all great for a strong magic phase.

They have the volume of attacks to kill a horde army, and enough high S to do well against more elite armies. They have high mobility, so are able to bring the right tools for the job where they are needed.

The only flaw with the list is they suffer from low durability. If the opponent manages to hold, they will start to die off. Being T3 and mostly 5+ will do that.

Most people would agree that DE are one of the armies to beat.

HE:

Most of my experience with HE is on the other side of the battle. They are an army I respect, their infantry is especially good with ASF and superb combat ability. They have a nasty magic phase, and their High lore is the most versatile of all the lores.

They suffer from the same problems DE, being T3 and bad armor, but at least they have ASF to help with that. They also have the problem with even the basic units costing quite a bit, so you don't get much in the way of bodies. This means you can't really take very large units, or if you do you can't have very many of them.

Overall I think they are Top 5 army, able to compete with the best lists, and usually beats the middle of the road armies.

VC:

VC are a character driven army. The vampires raise large quantities of undead, whom are terrible in combat. The problem is that the raise faster than most people can kill.

That is one way they play. They have several other variations, including some nasty deathstars and combat builds. But by far the most common build is the endless tarpits.

Their biggest flaw is that the Rank and File troops are utter junk. They die to anything, and elite armies with high volume of attacks can overwhelm portions of the army and destroy entire units before they get a chance to be raised back up. With the lack of ranged units, they are unable to control movement, and a liable to be outflanked.

Even with their flaws, they are strong contenders. A top 3 army, mostly because they can beat daemons, but are able to beat many of the other armies as well. If daemons weren't the top army, they probably would be a top 5 list instead.

I am surprised you didn't have lizards on your short list, they are very strong book with access to several great builds. Sure they don't have dragons, but they have dinosaurs!

Chaos Warriors do indeed have access to a dragon. They have the problem of having too many elite high cost units (and highly effective), and not enough bodies. They have so many great units. The problem being is that everything is so expensive, you usually can only use the absolute best of them. High variety of units, but most chaos armies end up looking very similar. The illusion of choice is how I would describe the book.

[Kail]

I have the old lizardmen book - and i like that their characters are so strong -

but again, here the dragon problem comes into play - i agree that in the old book, the lizardmen seem generally good with some elite troops, but can anyone give line their pros and cons up.

(their looks do not appeal that much to me)

But

if i was to use a dark elf army, could i build my army around a sorceror, a lord, (on of those on a dragon) an assassin and corsairs + reaper bolt throwers. and a unit of executioners. And then on top add some cold one righters

and the high elf one
build it around archers - add some white lions and swordmasters, a unit of eagles/repeater + mage and a lord on a stardragon. and some kind of cavalry i dont know which kind

and if i should use a vamp army i would fill it with zombies,add a black coach, grave guard, a necromancer and a blood dragon on a zombie dragon or a converted dragon=winged nightmare. i do not know what to add for anti flanking.

ar any of those coices viable, if even possible?
i wont come with real armylists with points since i do not have any of the latest adition books.

Please help

[Ravendove]

But - i want an army which includes

* very hard hitters - do not care if they are ranged, magic, or melee.
* Access to cheap troos and some ranged infantry
* not ogres, or orcs (practically the only 2 races i wont play)
* good ammounts of good elite infantry
* access to good lores - preferable of the destructive kind
* an army which can field awe inspiring lords/mages
* can use dragons - or anything that can be substitued by a dragon

Sounds like you are looking for Lizardmen.

Slann and Saurus Warriors are some of the best Magic-users and rank and file infantry (bar perhaps Chaos Warriors) in the game. Saurus can be taken as Temple Guard too, a little more elite.

Cheap troops and ranged infantry come in the form of masses of Skinks, which can also provide support magic. Lore of the Heavens is excellent, especially when combined with the awesome magical abilities of the oldest Slann Mage-Priests.

You could probably make the dragon counts-as any of the larger creatures in the Lizardmen book. After all, it's a huge lizard in an army full of huge lizards.

[Kail]

i just find their looks... crude and rather unappealing.. but think i will be going darkelf or highelf

[whatfruit]

Don't choose elves, Don't choose elves,
Don't choose elves, Don't choose elves

Anyone who has read any of my other post knows my hatered for all things elvish.

Have you considered empire? the only thing they can't do is feild dragons but they are so adaptable with options to kit them out to do range damage or a thundering calvary force + you have access to all the lores in the rule book.

of the races you have highlighted I would pick Warriors or VC's but that is just my personal preference. (I like the evil races apart from (DE)

If you like CC then warrios are your race. At first glance at their army book they seem very limited and what they can feild but the marks really do change the dynamic of how a unit operates. e.g 15 warriros with Mark of Khorne get 20 Attacks in the front rank on the charge or Nurgle marked Halberd warriors simply tear apart small heavy armoured units like great swords.

[notabot187]

I have the old lizardmen book - and i like that their characters are so strong -

but again, here the dragon problem comes into play - i agree that in the old book, the lizardmen seem generally good with some elite troops, but can anyone give line their pros and cons up.

(their looks do not appeal that much to me)

But

if i was to use a dark elf army, could i build my army around a sorceror, a lord, (on of those on a dragon) an assassin and corsairs + reaper bolt throwers. and a unit of executioners. And then on top add some cold one righters

and the high elf one
build it around archers - add some white lions and swordmasters, a unit of eagles/repeater + mage and a lord on a stardragon. and some kind of cavalry i dont know which kind

and if i should use a vamp army i would fill it with zombies,add a black coach, grave guard, a necromancer and a blood dragon on a zombie dragon or a converted dragon=winged nightmare. i do not know what to add for anti flanking.

ar any of those coices viable, if even possible?
i wont come with real armylists with points since i do not have any of the latest adition books.

Please help

DE: lord on dragon, 2 sorceresses, assassin hiding somewhere, corsairs as one or more of the core choices (as long as you keep them small) and bolt throwers are all viable, even in the same list. Executioners are probably the worst unit in the book, S 6 can be had by cold ones, cauldron of blood can provide killing blow to any unit, and they strike last. They cost a bit much, and they compete with better units for special slots. That being said, they can be decent if run in very small units for flanking and distraction purposes. If you want a sample list for 2k or higher, just PM me.

HE: that seems pretty decent, don't know how large each unit would be, but that looks pretty close to what I normally see in a HE list.

VC: generally VC pay for skeletons only. Zombies they raise during the game. A black coach and dragon in the same list is probably too much. It is not uncommon to spend nearly 1k on just characters, so once you add in the core units, there is not much points left for toys at 2k. Fellbats, wolves, and Vargulf are the normal anti flanking units. Black knights can also fill this role.