Tactica - Lootas

[cheart]

Hey everyone. Due to the great help and suggestions offered by my last tactica thread (about killa kans) I have decided to ask again about another ork squad that has tickled my curiosity - Lootas.

They seem to be a favorite of footslogging armies, but do they have a place in mech armies as well? Do you max out squad size for the chance of 45 shots in a turn or do you go with a couple smaller squads? Do you take only lootas, or substitute a couple meks in, and if so what do you kit the meks out with?

Again, thanks in advance for all of your help, and thank you to everyone who helped out with the killa kans issue!

[The Prince of Excess]

Lootas are one of the few units in 40k that if you don't take them, you're probably doing something wrong. They add anti-armor and elite unit torrenting to any army, something Mech and Foot Orks list usually lack.

The next most reliable anti-armor are PKs, which require CC, and TL Rokkits which are mounted on weak platforms, so easy to take out in many cases.

Many good lists take 2 squads of Lootas between 8-10. This gives a respectable shot number even on an unlucky d3 and is very under-priced for what they do. Blowing up AV10-12, torrenting MCs of all kinds and even just blowing away basic units are all in their power.

The best thing I've seen done with them is put them WAY in the back, in cover. Take advantage of their great range, many guns that are good against them max out at 36" and will be busy by trukk/boy rush. Lootas buy time for your other units with shooting to minimize damage you take and absorbing shots with a respectable T4 and 4+ cover.

Great unit, possibly the best in the Codex just because they're never a bad fit.

[mynameisgrax]

I'm going to make a few bold statements, but it merely reflects how positive I am of these facts:

1. Point for point, lootas are the best anti-armor shooting the Orks have.

2. P4P, lootas are the best unit the Orks have.

3. P4P, lootas are the best rhino killers in the game. Not the army, but the entire GAME.

For 150 points you can have either two autocannon heavy weapons teams in the Imperial Guard (3 autocannons each) or 10 Lootas. The 6 autocannons get 12 shots= 6 hits. The 10 Lootas get 20 shots on average = 6.67 hits. When Orks are outshooting IG, you know you have a great unit on your hands.

Lootas definitely have a place in both horde and mech armies. My personal favorite setup is 2 units of 9 lootas, held back in cover. That's 270 points well spend, and will halt any rhino/raider/trukk army dead in its tracks. They're not invincible, but they seem to make any army of 1500 points or more simply...better.

True, they can't deal with tough armor, but that's were rokkit buggies shine. Land Raiders and Monoliths will require the klaw. For everything else, you use lootas.

Don't like them? Then don't use them, but be prepared for rhino/raider/trukk armies, and have a solid plan for dealing with them, like Big Gunz kannons and such.

[The Prince of Excess]

Even Predators and such have side 11, two or more units of Lootas gives that no where to hide. Really all they can't hurt is solid AV14, and Russes. Can't think of anything else with AV13 side off the top of my head.

A big reason I run Outflanking Flamers is because Lootas are so punishing. Bad units don't usually require such a hard counter. :]

[Rannos]

Strangely, I've never run lootas and have experienced a good degree of success (even against mechanized armies,) but if I would I wouldn't run them with a mek boy. Most of his weapon options are crap compared to the lootaz' deffguns and they are otherwise identical to their more shooty brethren.

[tyland13]

I say that lootas utterly destroy. They can take out basilisks with ease, destroy the hoardes of Nids, and shut down transports (well, usually the troops transports) in their tracks (or anti-grav engines, wheels, tenticles or whatever). These are a rare ork shooty unit.

[cheart]

Okay so it seems like the general concensus is that lootas are really good, I can see that considering the amount of tank-rush style armies that are out there now-adays.

Only one response about taking meks, so I'm guessing that they are usually left behind.

A follow up question here - do you usually keep some squad back to protect the lootas from being engaged in cc or is their standard orc stat-line enough to get the job done?

[The Prince of Excess]

Lootas don't really need protection. Cover is good against anything except Hellhounds (which they can wreck) or Outflanking/Deppstriking Flamers (uncommon).

Against Outflanker they can be put down far enough from the edge to stay safe against most Flankers, and same strategy for Wolf Scouts.

DS is a bit messier but if they drop a unit, probably equaling the Lootas cost, to kill them AFTER they've had a few turns of shooting, worth it.

[mynameisgrax]

I agree with the Prince, lootas don't need backup. Units of 9 are cheap enough that it isn't the end of the world if you lose them because of an outflanking/fast enemy, and by that time in the game they wouldn't have that much shooting left anyway. You could always screen them with grots, but sticking them in cover, or having them hug the back edge of your deployment zone (so blast/ordnance has a tougher time hitting them) is usually enough for me. The true threat to lootas are concentrated fire and panic checks, as their leadership isn't so good. Just keep them in cover and you should be fine.

Meks in loota units are usually just used to get a unit up to 9 models when you don't have enough loota models. Meks with big shootas are alright, but lootas are a lot stronger. The only real advantage the big shootas have is you can move and still fire, but you don't want to move them too much or the lootas can't shoot. Kmbs and rokkits miss too much when wielded by meks, so I'd avoid them altogether.

[Seanchadith]

Saw a game the other day where the Ork player had 10 lootas with a Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek in the unit. The mek had a PK and attack squig. The unit got charged by a lone wolf (space wolves character) and ended up taking him down! NOT a recommended strategy but still hillarious.

[The Prince of Excess]

Yeah, SAG and Lootas aren't friends even if it seems that way. They fire at very different targets and why combine two great targets into one? Putting a SAG Mekk in Grotz makes two or three scary targets in the backfield AND Boyz rushing. Ow.

[cheart]

Is there any legitamacy in the idea of taking a trukk or battlewagon and sticking the lootas in it as a mobile bunker for them? If the tanks are open topped I believe the entire squad can shoot out of them as long as the tank doesn't move.

[The Prince of Excess]

They can but why waste the points? They don't need to move and T4, 4+ cover and a distance surpassing 36" is an amazing defense already. The tank could also blow up and kill a few of them in the explosion.

It seems like a big waste which I could just buy more Lootas with.

[mynameisgrax]

The 'mobile bunker' strategy with lootas is a poor one. Lootas don't want to move, and ironically, they're actually safer inside cover than in the battlewagon, because if the wagon blows up then they all have to take a strength 3 hit, with only a 6+ armor save to protect them, which will kill about 1/3 of the unit, and cause a panic test.

Now, the 'mobile bunker' strategy with SHOOTA BOYZ is a great one. Shoota boyz want to get closer to the enemy, and the battlewagon is a perfect way to get 20 of them (with nob, powerklaw, bosspole, and two special guns) up there. If you want boyz in a wagon, this is the way to go.

[Toastee]

I always run with Lootas, and its normally always 14 strong. Its never 13 (Odd numbers...ewwww), but never below 12.
It puts out a lot of dakka, and in cover, its a normally, survivable unit, as its numbers allow for it to remain fearless. (A must I feel, since you can't give lootas nobs, and therefore a bosspole.)

It does get shot at maybe for the first turn or two, but by then, the trukkers and BW riding Shootas are at the lines. Then they normally only die if something has gone horridly wrong, or I'm outflanked.

Its a very nice Orky support unit, but is a tad costly at 230 odd pointies. But well worth it I think.

All this is personal opinion mind. As to my knowledge, most loota running ork players run smaller units.
Either way seems to work well I think.

[The Prince of Excess]

I only prefer small units just because it's better to shoot 2 targets over 1 in most cases. They're pretty easy to keep safe with the extreme range and natural orky toughness. Big units make SURE what you shoot at gets hurts though. :p

[Toastee]

Aye, that is a great benifit in favour of big loota mobs, is that with the random D3 hits roll, you can never be sure how much dakka you're going to get. And with our awesome orky marksmanship, the more dice the better in my book.

Also, with the number of base attacks they get, they aren't overly bad in combat either. Not great, sure, but with a big mob, its still a fair amount of attacks.
Mind you, like I said, if they get charged, you've either been outflanked, or somethings gone wrong up on the line. D:

[mort]

I almost never take Lootas.. the main reason is that they are "too good". How can a unit be too good you say? well.. my opponents starts whining again, and again. and again until my brain is melted. And when he fist have started on the Lootas, why not just jump over to the Shootaboys in 4+covered Battlewagons with AV14 in front, pouring out more shots than a whole army of guard! (well not exactly) Id rather use more tactical units, and feel I actually did something good that game, instead of using the best unit ever.

Sound probably kind of wierd, but I think the lootas are in the Wrong section of the codex. They should be in the HS spot, (while the Flashgits should be an Elite choice) because they are the BEST low AV tank killer in the Ork army. High str, stand and shoot, one of the longes range in the army, and its an elite unit? yeah..

Anyways.. enough complaining about the best unit in the ork army. I totally agree with they point you guys are making. They dont need any babysitting, they just need cover. SAG mek shoul be with the Kannon batteries, using their Ammo Grots himself! Ive had best luck with units around 8-10, any reason why exactly 9 is mentioned? Ive also seen eople using two units of 5 to great sucsess. Can any of you give some points on that small squad?

A little tactic, if you have Lootas+Mek and a shooty wagon (boomgun or killkannon) in your list (boomgun suits this better for the longer range, and just beeing a generally better chose than killkannon) You can deploy them next to eachother, making the mek go in base to base with the wagon, and there you have a repair guy at the spot, ready to fix your broken wagon =D


Hmmm.. when i come to think of it, maby Ill actually try my lootas unit in my army again. I havent used alot of slogging units except for stormboys and grots in my Mechanized list. could be fun to try out, and it is a Deffskull list afterall! And guess what? I usually dont play my whiny opponent anymore. why? too much whining .. haha!

[The Prince of Excess]

Who the hell whines over Lootas? Orks are frankly a bit under-powered without them, you have to pray Rokkits can do the job an are forced into using them, which ends up being much lighter platforms.

I still say keep them on foot, even with the repairable wagon thing. It's just to many points.

[mynameisgrax]

Lootas are indeed very powerful, but they're far from game breaking. They can't take a nob, so they have no close combat power or re-rolls to leadership checks, and they can't move and shoot, so transporting them doesn't really work well.

So as long as your opponent knows to shoot them, they shouldn't be having too much trouble with them. It all comes down to your opponent deciding what's the best target: your lootas, or everything else in your army.

All that said, I agree, it'd make a lot more sense for lootas to be heavy choices instead of elites, and similarly, it'd make a lot more sense for flash gitz to be elites instead of heavy choices (and dedicated transports would've been a nice option for the gitz as well).

[Cossack]

The constant praising and drooling over lootas on this forum has amazed me from the beginning. I have NEVER...as in NOT ONE TIME seen Lootas be anything better than mediocre.

Give me more boyz with choppas and a Nob for winning.

Lootas look cool, and from time to time I still use them, but my personal experience (both using them and getting shot at by them) doesn't make me think highly of them at all.

And don't tell me I use them wrong. The Orks rock and comments about the army being underpowered without makes me think that some players might not understand the army.

[cheart]

How can D3 strength 7 shots be bad at 15 points a pop? The only way I can see lootas being not worth it is if you are battling against a foot-slogging MEQ army, as it won't be too effective against armour 3. And there would be no light tanks to shoot at.

I shudder to think of how good lootas would be against eldar though. AP4 would tear apart most aspect warriors, and st7 is high enough to do some damage to all of their tanks. Also the st7 will instant kill most characters in the eldar army... scary!

[mynameisgrax]

Cossack, you're using them wrong. I said it, and you can't do anything about it. ^_^

Seriously though, I've crippled mechanized and walker heavy armies in a single turn with lootas. They're absolutely vital, especially in competitive settings, for halting an enemy advance, and/or distracting enemy fire away from your boyz.

It's true that they CAN be mediocre if you don't roll well for their number of shots, but the same goes for everything in the game. Bad rolls will cripple any army, so what really counts is 'averages'. On average, they're awesome.

Now, that doesn't mean you have to like them or use them. For example, in the Chaos Marines army (which I dabble with every now and then), I don't like Obliterators, Defilers, Land Raiders, or Lash. Logically, I know they're very powerful for their cost, but I just don't like using them, so I don't. I would never claim that they aren't good though. They obviously are. They just aren't for me.

In short, just because you don't like lootas doesn't mean they're bad. Statistically, they're awesome. 9 Lootas = avg 18 shots = avg 6 hits with strength 7 = avg 1 glance and 2 penetrating hits against the front/side of a rhino. Very few armies can put out that much hurt for only 135 points.

[mort]

On average, they're awesome.
Yes, lootas are awsome at average!


Orks are frankly a bit under-powered without them, you have to pray Rokkits can do the job an are forced into using them, which ends up being much lighter platforms.

And I cant see why an army is underpowered because they dont use Lootas. I've managed pretty nicely with my list so far, and I dont even have Lootas, Rokits and RARELY any Kannons! "What! where?" you say, "Mechanized / mobile PK" I say. PK is still the best tank killer in out army, yes it doesnt realy work at range so I have to rely on transports to get me there safe. But when I do get there, becaus my opponent havent been able to take down both my AV14 Battlewagons, and the 3-4 trukks rushing forward while shooting down his troops. His tanks makes some nice holes in the ground because my KFF is deflecting most of the fire coming at my force. Some trukks die, and probably one Battlewagon early on, but then they have to meet the wave of boys sitting inside.

Let me see.. win / draw / loss ratio is probably something like 75% / 10% / 5%. And I dont think the Lootas will change much in that.


Who the hell whines over Lootas?
Orks are generally overpowered, so when I did bring my lootas, most people whine. Not only on the Lootas, but they kind of starts the whole whining wave. The wave wash over Lootas, cheap AV14, KFF protecting them, open-topped / super chargerange bla bla bla.. Every time is the same, and every goddamn time I argue against them. Its just so tiresom, so I cut them out.

Not only is this crappy place (or Denmark in general) full of whiners, but they have army list restriction, restricting the most overpowered units in most of the armies! Just to give a little taste of what I have to endure: Nob Bikers cant have Painboy (i dont use them anyways, but still) no more than 80+ boys, 1HQ / 0-2 Elite / 0-6 Troops / 0-2 FA / 0-2 HQ, no doubble units in HQ Elite FA or HS (no 2xlootas, no 2x killakans, no 2xdeffkoptas..) I can breake one of these rules (and only ONE) So I usually get my army an extra HQ choice for my Warboss (makes my MANZ troop) and have another Nob unit in elite. Then I can still have room for another Elite without breaking the restrictions. And this is just SOME of the restriction, and I have only mentioned for Orks.. No lash, no 3xAV14 .... its fun isnt it?

The restriction I learned to work around to get the army I wanted. and after playing alot without Lootas, I may add them in again to see if there is a strong reaction like usual.

[The Prince of Excess]

That last post was laughable. Orks are far from overpowered, Mech Orks is wiped out as easily as any mech army, only Nob Bikers are a problem but guess what? Vindicators are VERY popular now as far Heavy Flamer, so they aren't all conquering.

Foot slogger is the list most people have trouble against but that's because a lot of people don't think about it when making an army. In a competitive setting, note the word competitive, an Ork army without Lootas is garbage. You cannot convince me otherwise. They're like Faith Points to Sisters, an integral part of the army.

If Lootas do bad for you, get new dice or learn what to shoot at. They don't win games on their own, no unit does. They just let your Boyz do their job, getting stuck in with a healthy number. Almost no armies lack any AV10-12 vehicles, and if they do there are probably MCs to torrent. Heck, an average 20 S7 shots will even do something to MEQs, they're just fine in that regards.

It's not like you're even giving up anything to take them, in 1500 you can run 5-6 Troops and still easily fit 2 Lootas squads in with 2 good HQs, I've made the lists.

Just because your list works where you play, doesn't mean your list is the best it can be.

[mort]

Well.. if you had read my post, there isnt anything you call "competitive" in this area I play. If by competitive is bringing 2xNob bikers lists, dual Lash, and all the other cheesy lists out there.

Like I was saying, restrictions upon restrictions hold every player back. My list is great against my usual opponent, who doesnt primarily play this game to win, but to have fun too. I think you have missed the very point of this game. Sure, every game is competitive and you are playing to win. But what fun is playing against all the cheddar lists around.

Tourneys is there primarily to give a prize for the winner. Thats probably why I have never been in a huge tourney.

I hate these restrictions that my current gaming group makes, and there isnt any other player around in the town i live in. But both this town and back in Norway, I find every game competitive and exciting. I like Lootas, And I know how to use them (thats probably why people whine) but I hate whiners, so Ill left them at home. Maybe now my gaming group is seeing through the "overpowered Orks" thing, so I might try them out some more. But as soon as peole starts whining again, Im changing! =D I feel sorry for you, that you cant figure out armies without Lootas. And I feel sorry for myself for having to keep up with this crappy system around here.

As a bottom line here. Ive never met a supercheesy army (and im glad for that) But I still dont think you NEED a Loota unit to be competitive. And Footslogging is powerful I know (i play them sometimes), one of several reason for changing back to Mech list (I started playing KoS because I loved ork vehicle theme) Just my point of view, and evey has one..

[The Prince of Excess]

There are no cheesy lists in 40k. If you think some of the things people can bring are unbeatable, go hit the Fantasy Boards. Their tournaments have to have game changing comp systems so people who aren't Vamps or Demons can have a prayer.

Lootas do make Orks competitive. I'm not going to comment on your situation because I know nothing about it, I don't play where you do. I don't know why your group puts weird restrictions on what you can bring, maybe those guys would be happier with a different game.

If you play foot Orks and you have 0 Lootas, you're going to be crushed a lot. Now when I say this, I take into account the usual things people bring to the table per army, missions and I assume the opponent is not out right terrible.

Mech armies or partial mech armies will drive circles around you and pick you apart, it's jsut a fact based on above assumptions. Rokkit Buggies/Kopters can do damage but they're VERY fragile and don't average the same damage output when compared to Lootas.

Mech Orks still don't have anything special to take out armor. TL Rokkits and maybe some non TL Rokkits. They just didn't give the army a lot of tools to deal with tanks outside of smacking it with a PK. Is that orky? You bet. Is it practical? Not as much.

Also, the reasons I play the game are my own. It's a game, games have winners. I want to be that winner. Winning is fun for me. I love when people tout there all conquering ______ army because it's going to be a fun game that challenges me as a tactician. There's no pleasure in playing against bad generals, which is my current biggest problem with 40k.

[Rannos]

As I mentioned somewhere else (possibly this thread) I don't use lootas and (thanks to the price per model of the loota/burna box,) probably won't for a long while. And, even without these alleged godchildren I've done fine with my semi-mekanized Nob-centric list. Nothing like a unit of nobz in a battlewagon to tear a hole in your opponents army.
Then again, I am growing sick of spending 1/3 of my points on these nobz... maybe a few lootaz couldn't hurt...

[The Prince of Excess]

I make my own Lootas, half are the actual models because I got them used and half are AoBR Boyz with Imperial Guns. They double as HW Teams in my IG list. Orks are so easy to convert into specialty units.

[cheart]

Ranting aside I have a question (and maybe you can answer it PoE) - what do you think would be a good way to convert the mek you get in the loota box into another loota? I have a lot of extra eldar heavy weapons and maybe a couple space marine guns. I was thinking maybe using two scatterlasers together or something like that...

[Seanchadith]

loota tactica- put them in cover in the back and shoot at light armored vehicles, then 4+saves or worse, or MCs, whichever are bigger threats.

cheart- just strap on some guns and use a non-mek head, really any you want it will work. Skys the limit, but the non-mek head will show that

I think lootas are really great for their price. Personally I don't use them because I think its a shame that all ork players are now obsessed with them. Every ork army seems to have 1 or two units and that just doesn't seem representative of da orks. I'm not a big fan of building an army simply for power gaming, and this seems to be the most blatant example since chaos got lash. It makes sense because of their power, its just sad, considering that Orks were once considered to be the army of people who loved a fight and didn't give a damn. Sorry for the rant, but it needed to be said

[The Prince of Excess]

There's 0 need to convert the Mek. He has a large gun and he's an Ork. That's a Loota. Some of the Lootas have Plasma Cannons if you look at the models, his gun is similar. He just has a different head.

[flesh_pile]

How do you get around the 4+ cover save that you are most likely going to be giving your opponent's vehicles by shooting through friendly units? Plopping Lootas in the middle of the field to protect themselves from flankers will most likely mean they are going to be blocked by either friendly troops choices, or completely blocked by trukks and battlewagons. Glancing on sixes vs most SM vehicles doesn't provide much leeway when you are giving them a 4+ save. Even a 4 glance/5+ penetrate vs a Rhino isn't spectacular when you're only hitting on a 5+ and then having half of the shots wasted. Assuming 9 lootas with 2 shots each = 18 shots = 6 hits = 1 glance, 2 penetrate. After cover saves, you're looking at roughly 1 penetrating hit on a 35 point Rhino. The mobility granted by the enemy Rhinos is sort of negated either by hordes of Ork boyz that are impossible to avoid, or by an even faster Speed Freeks list. Positioning them on the sides of the field requires the use of 2 elites choices and makes them vulnerable to flankers. However, it does shut down skimmer attacks down the flanks and threatens the side armor of most SM vehicles that are positioned in the middle of the field. However 270+ points I think would be better spent elsewhere. With most of my lists, I usually don't have the points to fill out my elites choices after taking Meganobz and nobz as troops choices. For 135, you could run close to 20 boyz down a flank with shootas, big shootas and a nob which would easily take care of any skimmers, would count as scoring units, could advance, and threaten (with a PK nob) any vehicle within charge range or Waaagh range.

Personally, I think Mega Nobz and Kommandos are a better Elites choice. Mega Nobz have never let me down and Kommandos have usually been pretty effective. The few games that I used Lootas, they were a waste of points. Granted, the group of players that I game with use very heavily covered boards with lots of area terrain so line of site is an issue more so than 'standard' GW recommendations of 1 piece of terrain per 2'x2' section of board. Obviously this presents an issue with troops that are equipped with move or shoot weapons. 9 out of the 15 other players in my group play either SM, CSM (including a Death Guard army), or Necrons. I'm the only Ork player, and we have a tank heavy Guard player, a Tau player who has yet to win a game, and a Tyranid player who has only shown up a few times. Too me, Lootas seem like good Ork, Tau and Dark Eldar vehicle killers as well as Tyranid MCs (I've never played the 'nid player). They are good against Land Speeders as well. Against the usual contingent of Space Marine players that I'm sure most clubs consist of, I think small units of Mega Nobz in Trukks are a better Elite option (155 pts for 3 in a trukk vs 135 for 9 Lootas). The added bonus is that mega nobz can count as troops choices/scoring units when taking a Warboss and can be equipped with combi-skorchas to deal with other horde Ork/Nid armies where the PKs are largely useless and the need to kill vaste quantites is preferred over killing small, heavily armored squads of Marines, or small, crappy squads of Guard and Tau that fall over if you look at them the wrong way. We usually build an 'all-comers' army list, and play whoever shows up so our lists aren't focused on fighting a particular force. I have found against MEQ armies, a small unit of mega nobz in a trukk blasting towards the enemy lines as quickly as possible is quite effective, especially when backed up by hordes of troops and another Battlewagon/trukk or two worth of troops. Just my $.02.

[The Prince of Excess]

Well for starters, put them on higher terrain. I play on almost exclusively city terrain, not exactly a problem. Most places have things like that, something raised.

Also, you can just get out of your own way. It's not to hard to set up a few firing lanes, especially when you get to move first. If you have to spread out a TON because of ordnance/blast heavy armies it's a bit worse but those things should be your first targets anyways.

Mega Nobz are great, in Battlewagons. Trukks are to risky and on foot is downright stupid. They aren't better, they do entirely different things. They fit in a specific type of army but they fit well.

Kommandos....not a fan. Snikrot is a must take imo. Units with 6" movement and no real anti-armor arriving from an unpredictable side is way to easy to avoid and even easier to deal with, they aren't that special. If only they could take Snikrot and a PK, they'd be such a good unit.

If you play on only forest terrain, with no hills or anything I can see why Lootas would be less useful but most shops are a little better than that in the terrain department. Also, about the SM vehicles, that's why 2 units are almost mandatory. 2 units let's you see side armor, than it's game on.

[flesh_pile]

Why not 2 groups of 2 or 3 rokkit buggies for light tank hunting? They have great mobility so they are much more guaranteed to hit side/rear armor, they are immune to lasgun fire and pretty resilient against a marine squad with bolters. With trukks, battlewagons and kans/dreds, they opfor has plenty of other stuff to worry about with regards to allocating their heavy weapon fire. One rokkit buggy is roughly equal to 2 lootas and has a 2/3 chance of hitting with a S8 attack. 2 lootas have on average 4 shots and will hit 1 1/3 times with a S7 attack. Lootas have the extra range and better chance to hit, but I think this is negated by the speed and mobility of the rokkit buggies as well as being unbreakable and largely immune to small arms fire. With 3 buggies for 105 points, you're likely to get two S8 hits which should get a penetrating hit on the side or rear of most vehicles. True, the lootas can stay out of the way of return fire from the majority of the enemy, but they are pretty much immobile and vulnerable to scouting units. A good opponent will use terrain, vehicle facing and distance to marginalize the lootas. Knowing that he is up against close combat oriented Orks, he can keep his force back and shoot before striking or grabbing objectives. The further back the enemy vehicles sit, the less likely you'll be able to get side shorts, let alone rear shots. True, the buggies are fragile against heavy weaponry and even to heavy bolters but you can just not deploy them during setup and then move them on firing on T1. If the opfor sticks back in the depolyment zone and doesn't advance, just hide them behind cover or advancing trukks for a good cover save - are they going to shoot at the non-scoring buggy units, or the massive horde of boyz or nobz that are about to be in their face next turn?

[Rannos]

Firstly FP, you're probability is off. Both Lootaz and buggies have a 1/3 chance of hitting. One Buggy during one shooting phase statiscially causes .333 hits. Two Lootaz fire on average four shoots that cause 1.333 theoritical hits.

For three buggies at 105 points you're usually causing one S8 hit.
For 7 lootaz at 105 points you're usually causing 4.6666 S7 hits

Lootaz also get cover saves far more easily than buggies since area terrain doesn't obscure buggies like how it give infantry cover saves.

Lootaz also can fight back if assaulted, but a buggies only defence is making your opponent roll 6's to hit them. (and running away ... not very orky.)

Sure, rear armour shots are nice, but lootaz hit more and are, generally, safer than buggies. So, I'd say they're quite a bit better for their points.

[flesh_pile]

Buggies have twin linked rokkit launchas. 1/3 plus 1/3 (if missed) = 2/3 chance of a hit. Unlike extra shots, the buggy is always limited to just 1 hit maximum, but with 3 of them you should get 2 hits at S8 which should cause some damage. Yes, Lootas will get a little more than twice the number of hits, but most likely your opponent will always get a cover save against them as you are either shooting through your own guys or intervening terrain. Buggies only get 2 hits, but you can maneuver to negate most intervening terrain and friendly troops. The end result is the same. Buggies can also instant kill T4 Marine characters This might be unlikely, but if they're hiding out in a reduced squad, finish off most of the squad with shootas and whatnot, and then pepper the remainder with Rokkits. Plus, unless they are wearing Terminator or artificer armor, you're getting through their 3+ base save to whatever invulnerable save they might have.

I think a 6+ to hit is a great defense combined with armor 10. Normal models either without grenades or with frag grenades are going to have a really hard time taking them down. Even a full 10 man tactical squad that hasn't been broken into combat squads will only get on average 3 hits with krak grenades, which will cause 1 or 2 glancing/penetrating hits. 10 Marines into 7 Lootas = 4 or 5 dead Lootas, a most likely failed morale check, and being cut down when they turn to run. True, Lootas will be hanging out at the back of the field most of the time, but they still have to deal with drop pods, Terminators, Sentinels, Veterans, Valerye dropped troops, Kommandoes, etc. - all of which will tear them up in CC. Buggies are more vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry and even heavy anti-infantry weaponry, but Lootas are vulnerable to basic enemy troop fire. Cover saves can probably be found for both the Lootas and the buggies if positioned properly.

A dirty trick you can play if they decide to charge your Buggies would be to move a kombi-skorcha equipped model(s), Burna boyz, or a Skorcha wartrakk to within burning distance and then decimate the squad that just hit your buggies with gouts of flame! Unless you're facing MEQ, that's going to be a lot of dead troops just for the chance to take out a 100 point unit which most likely isn't even going to take out the whole squad!

Unless you are playing against an enemy with open topped transports such as Orks or DE, you shouldn't have to worry too much buggies getting charged if you position them properly. MEQ armies are relatively slow and they can't assault out of their transports. If they waste a Land Raider on the buggies, you should be happy as they're doing their job of drawing fire from other more important units.

I'm not saying that buggies are a dead 'ard unit as they definitely are not. I just don't think they are any more vulnerable than Lootas and the limited anti-vehicle firepower of the enemy is going to have to be split between the buggies, your transports, and your walkers and perhaps Nobz and Meganobz if they've hit the ground due to their transport being destroyed or having wiped out the enemy in CC.

[Rannos]

When I talked about lootaz in assaullt I was referring to the fact that they'll probably do some harm before fleeing off the board. They're still orks afterall.

With buggies, if they're being assaulted rather than shot at that likely means that unit has a real good chance of breaking its AV 10 (meltabombs, MC, DCCW, etc.) and/or have plenty of attacks to throw at it (ie other orks.) That or, your opponent is desperate and/or a poor tactician.

Its while being shot at that lootaz prove more survivable. In a MEQ or dakka-focused army there is usually more than enough S4+ weapons to justify taking potshots at those buggies, especially if your green tide is out of those units' range.
Lootaz on the other hand are usually out of range and in cover. When outflankers/deep strikers reach your lootaz, they'll probably have to go through difficult terrain giving you some time to blast away at them and go first when charged.

Again, I don't own lootaz and I also don't have any buggies (trukks are bad enough in my book,) so this is all in theory.

[Quannum]

Is there anything more satisfying as a Loota-player, when you imagine the side of a SM Predator being swiftly turned into swiss cheese, as the spray of Loota bullets pepper the tank's hull - some ricocheting off, others punching through?

Ahhh.....

Q

p.s. Please check out the "Tactica: Deffkoptas" thread that I've started in this forum, for more unit by unit based discussion.