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Rikimaru
October 23rd, 2009, 00:40
Balance! What is it?

A good question. OK in various recent topics the subject of balance within Tau lists has been raised quite a lot and it is something that is often mentioned when discussing what makes a good list.

With this in mind I thought it would be quite interesting to discuss what is meant by balance in regards to Tau army builds and use my list as an example to try and explain how balance plays a part in how it was built.

To start with lets look at the Tau army and its strengths and weaknesses because to build a balanced effective list we need to have a decent understanding of what works or does not work in the Tau army.

The first and most obvious strength the of the Tau is its powerful shooting output. So obviously this needs to be optimised; however one thing I have noticed is when a lot of new players build a list they go overboard incorporating lots of awesome guns. Sounds good but too much spent on firepower impacts on other strength aspects of the list.

Which are?

Mobility: It can be argued quite strongly that mobility is equally as important as firepower for Tau and is another of its strengths. Luckily for Tau players above average mobility is something many Tau units have as standard but for some units it has to be paid for. A lack of mobility will result in defeat for Tau players so mobility has to be factored into the balance.

Flexibility: Another Tau strength, we are blessed with a few units that can be outfitted to cope with whatever type of opponent we face. The XV8 is our most flexible unit with enough options in weaponry and wargear to tailor them to deal with pretty much any opponent. Problem is this bewildering amount of variation can lead to an unbalanced and overly expensive reliance on the XV8.

The Hammerhead has the Railgun, which is good against armour and also infantry and can also be fitted with the Ion cannon.

Stealth units can be equipped with Fusion blasters, which gives them the capability to take down armour with the rest of the team dealing with infantry. Lastly we have the Kroot! This unit is extremely flexible in that it can be deployed in various ways (reserves, infiltration, outflank) can be carried in a Devilfish, has good shooting but also has decent close combat skills. They can be used equally well in defense and offense.

Enhancement: The Tau army has the ability to enhance certain characteristics or game mechanics either by using wargear or by the use of the Markerlight. This as will be shown is a major and incredibly important strength.

Weaknesses

Assault: Well the overriding weakness for Tau is its lack of close combat ability. Yes we have the Kroot but they can only do so much. Most other armies most basic units have decent CC abilities but the Tau’s CC abilities are woeful. Even our XV8’s are only blessed with initiative 2 and weapon skill 2. Kroot with Hounds are formidable but Tau should never have assault as part of a list building strategy.

Whenever we build a list avoiding or mitigating an opponents assault superiority is possibly one of the most important considerations we need to take into account.

Average ballistic skill: Now as someone who shall remain nameless :sinister: keeps telling me opinions are not facts. Well OK but it is my ‘opinion’ that the average BS of the Tau is a weakness.
When you consider that the overriding way we can win is to inflict more damage by shooting then the enemy then having something that restricts the ability to maximise this ability can I think quite rightly be called a weakness.

If we take standard Codex Tau units then only two units have above average BS, the HQ commanders and Hammerheads. All other units are saddled with BS3. BS3 sucks noodles in regard to the Tau. If we take no enhancements then an average 50% of shooting output will fail. This is a major weakness that needs addressing. Luckily we can address it but that balance we are discussing needs taking into consideration.

A Lack of choice in most force slots: yes we can tailor certain units but the one thing you will notice with Tau lists is the same units appearing over and over again in lists. This is a weakness because it makes it easier for opponents to judge what tactics we are going to employ because a lack of variety means a lack of variation in tactics.

Consider for instance the Marine player and just how many variations he can field in just the HQ slot, Tau have two options (XV8 or Ethereal) unless special characters are used. Consider the elites (8 choices), Fast attack (9 choices), Transport (7 choices), Heavy (8 choices). Compare that lot to what the Tau can field.
When we face Marines we cannot really prepare with any certainty for what we are going to face because there is simply so much variation.

Just try thinking about a game facing the Tau for a second, I bet you have a pretty good idea what you will be facing:

XV8 HQ
XV8 elites (usually Fireknife or Deathrains)
1 maybe 2 units of Fire Warriors in Devilfish
Kroot (usually a couple of units)
Pathfinders
Hammerheads (usually two)
Piranhas
XV88’s or Skyray
Stealths
Rarely seen Vespids and Sniper Drones

There will be slight variations but essentially that is it. A saying comes to mind “familiarity breads contempt”. Just think about varying your Tau list for a while and I bet you will be quite frustrated because you will inevitably end up very close to what you already use.

OK so we have some idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the Tau army.

How does this translate into game play? Well on the most basic level we need to ensure the opponent does not reach Tau units while we punch the living daylights out of their army.
On a more advanced level we need (in no particular order)

Board control
Effective firepower application
Unit synergy
Equality of army effectiveness regardless of mission type
The ability to be effective against as many army types as possible
Redundancy
Solid defensive capability.

How do we build a list to build on the strengths and alleviate the weaknesses? Well we try to achieve balance. What is balance? Or to put it another way, define balance in respect to Tau.

First thing we need to do is define what we need to balance in respect to 40K and more specifically Tau. Well balance in this context is 'the utilisation of the individual components of the army to ensure that army as a whole works in an effective way across the largest amount and variation of games encountered'.

Here is what I think we need to balance to achieve the above:

Firepower

Mobility

Survivability

Offensive capability against a range of differing army types

Assault mitigation and offensive power

Defensive ability

Competitiveness across different scenarios/mission types

Redundancy

Every single one of the above categories needs to be taken into account individually but also needs to be balanced against every single one of the other categories. Concentrating to much in any one single area will result in detriment to other areas.

First I am going to discuss firepower. To state the obvious, if Tau players get this wrong the game is over. There are differing schools of thought regarding Tau firepower:

(1) Torrent of fire
(2) Optimised firepower
(3) A combination of the above

All the above have merits but focussing solely on either of the first two will result in failure. The best approach is number three, a combination of both.

Take for instance the torrent approach. This usually consists of taking as many guns as possible with the hope of just wiping the opponent of the board with lots of shots. Only problem is unless the shots are accurate the advantage of the volume of shots is mitigated by the reduced hit rate. For instance 36 shots at BS3 are basically the same as 24 shots at BS4 but you have to pay for the extra 12 shots. In the case of Fire Warriors this would entail buying an extra unit at a minimum of 120pts.

The problem is though to get 24 shots at BS4 we have to pay for Markerlights and again these cost points but because we have paid for lots and lots of guns we have less points to spend on the Markerlights.
We should also remember that ML’s might not be the only thing we struggle to pay for if we go for to many guns. So we need to assess which option gives us the best (yes you guessed it) ‘balance’. So lets discuss balance in regards to accuracy and firepower.

Given that accuracy is so important it helps to take as many units that are inherently accurate without external help as possible. Following this simple rule will ensure we go a long way to gaining the optimisation of firepower.

To illustrate my list includes Shas’Els (BS5 with a targeting array), XV8 Deathrains (with Targeting arrays) a torch squad with Flamers that do not roll to hit and Hammerheads. Any unit that can deliver firepower at optimal or near optimal levels (cheaply if possible is a bonus) is a real asset to the list and as long as they fit your overall plan for the army they should always be maximised.

Remember the majority of units in the Tau army are BS3 but additionally we have the problem of a higher availability of cover saves for the stuff we are firing at. So if possible it is nice to have at least some Markerlight support. Ideally any list should have at least two sources of Markerlights. Having one unit while useful is obviously limited by the fact that it can only provide marker light hits against one unit and there is no redundancy, if your one unit is killed then you have no ML support.

Markerlights offer many nice advantages chief amongst them as I said earlier are BS upgrades and the removal of cover saves. These benefits are so attractive it is often tempting to cram as many ML’s as possible into a list, big mistake. The key is taking just enough and it is quite a hard balance to achieve.

As detailed above having units that do not need ML help to up their BS or that can work at a reasonable level (but do work better if the ML’s are available) without the ML support means that (a) we do not need to take as many ML’s and (b) the ML’s we do take can be used in a much more effective and targeted manner. We are starting to balance the army.

Having the weapons:
Balance of weaponry is another priority. I think it is fair to say (and I think most will agree) that high on the list of target priority in an opponents army are transports and armour. Of course depending on the army faced other units will present themselves as the priority but in general terms Tau players need to maintain as much distance between the Tau units and the opponents as is humanly possible.

Luckily we have some really good weapons to aid us in stopping vehicles, notably the Railgun and the Missile pod. The ideal situation is to stop tanks shooting back and to put passengers in transports on foot on the table. So we know we need the heavy stuff to handle vehicle type units but these are not the only unit types on the table.

If it’s not a vehicle then it usually fits into one of the following categories:

(a) Infantry type units these include any unit with stat lines similar to standard troops
(b) Slightly enhanced elite infantry type units (Termies, Wyches etc)
(c) Non-vehicular armoured units (Dreadnoughts, Warwalkers etc)
(d) Bike type units or fast attack light vehicles such as speeders etc

If we do not take enough to handle whatever combination of the above is thrown at us then games will be lost. Deathrains are great but they suck against a unit of 24 Hormegaunts a twin linked Flamer equipped XV8 on the other hand will do the job quite nicely. Ideally we need redundancy in every aspect of attacking weaponry and this can be quite hard to achieve. I think the best way to show how this balance is achieved is to describe how I built my list.

Here is the breakdown of my list and how it is tuned for balanced performance against a wide variety of opponents, unit types and missions. Now this is only one type of list and one way of attaining balance but it is a good illustration of the thinking that should go behind any list.

HQ
Shas'El
Plasma, Missile Pod, Targeting array, HW multi tracker, HW Target lock, HW BSF, HW Drone controller, Marker Drone 135pts

Shas'El
Plasma, Missile pod, Targeting array, HW multi tracker 97pts

Ok first of all we have ‘two’ HQ XV8’s. This is not extravagance but carefully thought out. Missile pods are vital and having two at BS5 is well 'nice'. Taking two Shas’El’s means I have redundancy and having two individual models means it is harder for the opponent to stop both. Having two BS5 Plasma’s also helps the army against MEQ type opponents.

I also have the Marker light Drone on one of the Els’s which helps to distribute my ML presence throughout the list. Having the ML’s spread around aids in redundancy and survivability of the ML presence and also means more units benefit from the ML’s.

I could have gone for Fireknives in the elite slots but they would not have been as efficient and they would have relied on Markerlights which would have meant other units would not benefit from them. (Remember I am discussing my list here and I am not saying Fireknives are bad, just they do not fit the balance of my list)

Elites
Deathrain squad
2 X XV8 with twin linked Missile Pod, Targeting array
106pts

Deathrain squad
2 X XV8 with twin linked Missile Pod, Targeting array
106pts

Torch squad
1 x team leader with twin linked Flamer, Missile pod, HW Multi, HW Drone controller and 2 Gun Drones, BK
2 x XV8's with twin linked Flamers, Missile Pod
164pts

The overriding factors I was aiming for with the elites were:

(a) Autonomous usage. By this I mean the units should be able to operate on their own for the majority of the game with no support from other units especially Markerlights.

(b) Optimised offensive ability. I wanted each unit to be able to work at near optimised levels when attacking.

(c) Redundancy. The units should add redundancy to the army list.

The units do the above and I will explain why. The Deathrain squads do not need Markerlight support (in fact using the ML’s to boost to BS5 is a waste of resources). The configuration of the unit has been balanced to offer the best balance of offense and cost. Taking three man DR units would not offer enough of an increase to justify their cost.

When you consider that the DR unit’s main task is stopping transports that this should be accomplished in the first two turns and the actual number of transports in an average list then it is actually counterproductive to spend another 106pts making the teams each 3 strong.

More can be accomplished by taking Missile pods on another unit but on one that can work against other targets, hence the Torch squad. The inclusion of 6 BS3 Missile pods on the three man Torch squad makes more sense than taking two more Deathrains.
I still have redundancy with the Missile pods but I gain effective anti infantry with the Flamers. However I am also gaining in another area because the Torch squad can work autonomously, is optimised at its anti-infantry role (needing no roll to hit and re-rolls wounds) and does not rely on ML’s for the Flamers to improve BS or to remove cover saves (Flamers ignore cover).

So my entire elite section is tuned to provide an alpha strike at maximum efficiency (for those who do not know an alpha strike is the first round of shooting from your forces in a game). To illustrate I will list what my units can provide:

4 BS5 Missile pod shots (plus 2 or 4 BS Plasma dependent on target range)

8 BS4 twin linked Missile pod shots

6 BS3 Missile pod shots (dependent on Markerlight usage BS can be and often is raised to BS4 or BS5)

2 BS4 minimum Railgun shots from two hammerheads, dependent on target priority these will usually be hitting at BS5 with ML help but even without it BS4 is good

Up to 6 Seeker missiles. Again dependent on targeting priorities or cover save removal priorities I can vary my Seeker delivery

Two BS4 Fusions on the piranhas

The point here is that because the two Deathrian units and the HQ are not ML reliant I can utilise my Markerlights to help to provide a massively accurate alpha strike or to help remove cover saves.

The structure of my Markerlight contingents also means I can help 5 units achieve greater efficiency but it also has the side effect of making the Markerlight presence much harder to stop if the opponent gains the alpha strike. It is nigh on impossible to quickly stop 4 units of Markerlights.

So I have 18 MP shots, 2 accurate Railguns and Seeker missiles. I would be happy facing any list with that amount of first turn highly accurate firepower. It should also be noted that the Missile pods are spread throughout 5 units, which greatly aids their redundancy. To remove my MP output the opponent has to target 5 separate units spread around the field.

This also makes it much harder for the opponent to keep his vehicles vulnerable armour facings hidden from the MP’s, Seekers and Railguns but also from the multiple Markerlight sources (2 of which are mobile).

This shows how carefully balancing a unit’s firepower output can have cascading effects throughout the list. Balancing the Deathrain and HQ units cost to accuracy ratio carefully has given me the points to spend on units that benefit other units by making their output more efficient.

So already we have balance in the following areas:

Offensive output
Defence
Redundancy

Next we come to the troops.

Troops

9 Fire Warriors one upgraded to Shas'Ui with Bonding Knife (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
105pts

9 Fire Warriors one upgraded to Shas'Ui with Bonding Knife (will use Pathfinders Devilfish)
105pts

10 Kroot and 6 Kroot hounds
106pts

10 Kroot and 6 Kroot hounds
106pts

This is an area that is notorious for its ability to generate debate. I have given a lot of thought to the most beneficial balance for this force slot.

What do we need to achieve with troops? Well first thing to understand is troops are vital (also one unit of Fire Warriors is compulsory), they are needed to take and hold objectives in 2/3rds of missions. Now despite what various people/forums say if you want to play competitive games (especially against high standard tournie players) you need to consider three areas in regards to troops.

(1) Objective taking and holding
(2) Keeping troops alive
(3) Offensive power
(4) Balancing all the above

As we are talking about the Tau we need to address one thing first ‘Kroot’. In my opinion kroot are compulsory in a Tau list, if you want to win consistently with Tau you need Kroot.
Kroot offer various benefits to the tau player they have various deployment options (infiltrate, outflank and normal placing on the table), they offer shooting, assault and good defensive options.

However to work effectively you need to ensure they are not needed for objective control, without that constraint they can then be fully and freely utilised in those offensive and defensive roles without any reservation.
To do this we need a decent Fire warrior presence and again this is a real balancing trick.

The number of Fire Warriors in each of my units is calculated to allow for a reasonable amount of firepower, casualty absorbtion, and resistance to fall back tests plus decent defensive capability.

Nine Fire Warriors in a unit is a good balance as it offers:

18 shots at rapid-fire range
It takes 3 casualties to force a fall back test
It is a decent size to offer resistance when occupying objectives

To survive the Fire Warrior units need a Devilfish, which luckily enough the two Pathfinder units happen to be forced to take. This combination of units just happens to provide a good balance in various game play elements.
For one it means we have the two Pathfinder units, which provide the ML support AND means we do not have to spend extra paying for two more Devilfish. The Fire Warrior unit and Devilfish combo make the Kroot units more effective and give the army good balanced ability in any mission type.

Back to the Devilfish for a moment; these are a very good example of balancing various elements to provide a benefit to the army and/or other units. For example the way I have set up the Devilfish means it provides five Fire warriors worth of firepower no matter how far it moves (two Drones and the Burst cannon = five shots).
So simply by leaving the Drones on the DF and taking a Multi tracker instead of paying for a smart missile system means I have more than a full Fire Warrior squads worth of firepower.
Taking flechettes also allows the DF to perform another role, one of a defensive support for the Fire warriors. The taking of the Flechettes means any unit attacking a Devilfish will suffer hits. Objectives can be held by FW’s in Devilfish, so the DF provides protection and offense with its Burst cannon, Drones and Flechettes for FW untis on objectives.

Devilfish's basically provide a mobile bunker with firepower for Fire warriors and the way I have equipped it makes it a very effective offensive and defensive asset.
Holding an objective is made much easier with a Devilfish with Drones, Flechettes and its Burst cannon, it gives a multi-layered defence for the objective (I/E Devilfish, Drones then Fire warriors).

The Kroot unit are made more effective because the Fire Warrior units are there to take, hold and contest objectives. This means the Kroot are freed from this task so the are free to provide protection for other units or to be used as attacking units and even as sacrificial units. Conversely the Fire Warriors are less put upon to provide offensive output.

Having two units of Fire Warriors also provides redundancy to both the FW units and the Kroot. Having four troop units’ means the opponent has to work harder to prevent the Tau player taking/holding objectives.
What has to be remembered is Kroot are (despite all their advantages) a fragile unit and they cannot be relied upon to hold or take objectives, even getting to an objective is fraught with danger for Kroot units. Even the Kroots famous ability to go to ground in wooded terrain is negated by flamers or template type weapons.

Having the two units’ of FW’s means more flexibility.

For example the Tau player can:

(a) Hold both Fire Warrior and Devilfish units in reserve until late in the game
(b) Hold one FW unit and a DF in reserve but have the other holding an objective
(c) Use both units as offensive units in kill point missions
(d) Have one FW/DF unit in reserve and use one to help the Kroot in objective missions with fewer objectives or in combined KP/objective missions

And so on and so on! The point is that having the two FW units means it is easier to handle any mission type and balances the roles of the FW’s and the Kroot allowing both to perform much more efficiently.
Having two Kroot units and one FW unit simply puts to much pressure on the Kroot and restricts the player’s use of them, this is not a balanced approach because the opponent can apply pressure to either the Kroot or the lone FW unit, either way it restricts the usage of each unit.

The Kroot units are also balanced to provide balanced offensive power, the inclusion of Kroot hounds means they can perform well in assaults as well as shooting. Having the hounds also means the unit performs better at protecting other units and as an area denial unit. Any enemy unit attacking the Kroot will be faced with either a decent amount of shooting attacks or a formidable amount of assault attacks.

The Kroot also have various deployment options, which makes them very good at responding to the differing mission types available. Basically there are no missions in which the Kroot cannot be deployed favourably or in response to your opponent.

So as can be seen the number of troops and their construction plus their transport options has all been carefully thought out to provide multiple benefits to the list.

Now for the fast attack

Fast attack

5 Pathfinders
60pts

Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

5 Pathfinders
60pts

Devilfish with Disruption Pod, flechettes and multi
105pts

2 x Piranha with Fusion, TA and DP’s 150pts

When considering what to take in the fast attack slots the need to provide Devilfish for the Fire Warriors and the need for Markerlights pretty quickly decides two of the slots. However taking two full units of PF’s is overkill.

Having 16 Pathfinders (2 full units) is expensive and the returns are negligible. Each 5 man unit will return a minimum of two tokens a turn and this is usually enough, offering either a 2pt BS boost, 1pt BS boost and a 1pt cover save reduction or a 2pt cover save reduction.
That will usually be enough ML tokens to serve one unit in most situations.

Having 5 or 6 tokens against one target is often just a waste of tokens so the points can be better spent elsewhere. The other benefit of smaller units is they are easier to hide and can utilise smaller pieces of cover.

Having two smaller units also aids their survivability and provides redundancy because the ML presence is not concentrated in one unit. 60pts for each unit is also not a big sink in points but the benefits they provide to the list far outweigh their cost.

The Piranhas are taken to provide in order of importance:

(a) Blockading of the opponents dangerous/fast units
(b) Anti armour with their Fusion blasters
(c) Objective contesting

I had to consider whether it would be better taking two separate units consisting of one Piranha each or taking a two Piranha unit. The problem with taking two separate Piranhas is they need a Fast attack slot each and this would mean losing a Pathfinder squad. This would have serious implications for the list balance.

It would mean paying extra for another Devilfish for the second Fire warrior unit or forsaking the second FW unit all together. Either option is bad because paying for the extra Devilfish means taking points from another unit, taking one unit of FW’s has all the disadvantages I mentioned earlier for the Kroot units etc.

Losing a Pathfinder squad means the remaining squad is going to get more attention from the opponent and will be much less survivable, I lose some redundancy and I am going to lose a units worth of ML support so a unit is either going to be hitting less often or an opposition unit is going to be benefiting from improved cover saves. All in all taking two individual Piranhas is not worth the mass of downsides (for this list).

Having the two Piranhas has some advantages. The unit offers decent firepower, two BS4 Fusions is not to be sniffed at and the Drones offer nice backup. The two Piranhas offer a good decent sized frontage for blockading. The downside is the squadron rules but these are not that important when we are using the unit to block anyway. Another benefit is any assault attacks have to be split between the two Piranhas which means they should stay around longer when assaulted (which is a good thing).

Heavy support

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod
165pts

Skyray
Burst cannons, Targeting array, Multi tracker and Disruption Pod, Blacksun filter
160pts

2000pts

The Hammerhead is a great example of a perfectly balanced unit. It offers balanced offense against infantry and vehicle type units when the Railgun is taken. Both the solid shot and the submunnition are both extremely effective against their respective targets, which makes the Railhead Hammerhead a valuable asset to any list.

Taking the Skyray helps to make the Hammerheads more effective by upping the BS which either helps the hit rate of the solid shot or reduces the scatter of the subs round.
Taking the Skyray also means the other Markerlights are free to help other units, reduce cover saves or to launch the Skyrays seekers.

A small touch is the Black sun filter on the Skyray, this is deliberate because the BSF can be used to fire the Markerlights which in turn can be used to negate the effects of night fight for up to two units (usually the Hammerheads).

Having the two Hammerheads also offers some redundancy and also means they offer offense throughout the whole game, first couple of turns they hit armour and then can switch to infantry killing for the rest of the game. Same goes for the Skyray it offers Marker light support throughout the game and heavy fire support but it also offers that important redundancy to the ML presence.

So as can be seen balance is very important to lists effectiveness. The thing to remember is that the balance has to be built up from an understanding of the mechanics of good Tau gameplay. Basically what this means is the understanding of which tactics work best for the Tau player and building the list to exploit them. Tau work best when delivering withering amounts of firepower fast while utilising board control to keep enemies at bay and to control objectives.

Denial of targets is also important to successful play and the best way to accomplish this is using board control. So what is board control, well it consists of different things.

Alpha strike: using the early strike to cripple transports and make units walk across the field, also stopping the enemies tanks, dreads etc to prevent the opponent from destroying our transports and reducing our mobility.

Blockading: using Tau units to prevent dangerous units from gaining ground. The Piranha is good for this but the Devilfish can be used and so can the Kroot at a push.
Preventative deployment: using units such as kroot and XV8’s to deter the opponent from areas of the field.

Mobility: using mobility to respond to the opponents game-play, to gain line of sight to better stop units, to control objectives or to contest them.

Infiltration: using the Kroots infiltrate ability (or Stealth’s) to respond to the opponent’s deployment, to blockade areas of the field, to directly attack areas of the field or to provide assault screens.

Use the above list of requirements as a template is a good start to building an effective list. I have tried to show how I have built the balance into my list to best utilise the list of traits above. I hope it has gone some way to helping you to better understand how building balance into a list works and how it can really improve a list.

Please understand that I am not saying that the above army list is the best ever example of balance because it is not. What it is, is a good example of balance in a list and I have included it to explain the ‘principles’ of balance and not to say “my list is the best example”.

I hope this article has succeeded in explaining some of the more esoteric, less obvious theory behind Tau list building. As always any critiques are welcome or pointing out of errors.

Most of all this is a starting point and not definitive by any means. I am hoping others will post with examples of balance in their list because there is no perfect “one” way of doing things and units and lists can work and be balanced in different ways.

Trevor the Drake
October 23rd, 2009, 03:21
Riki, I have not been with the Greater Good for that long (a few weeks now) but I find your articles, above others, to be very in-depth, and yield a great amount of insight into the Tau. They can be confusing at first, I know for me they were to an extent, but your articles do help to make everything become more clear. I hope to read more from you, and I agree with almost all of your opinions.

Keep up the great work, and +rep.

-TD

EDIT: It seems I need to spread some more reputation around before I can give it to you again, so for now I will just have to give you an I.O.U.

number6
October 23rd, 2009, 15:49
From my point of view, the only quality a "balanced" force must possess is the ability to deal with heavy mech enemies as easily as MC enemies as easily as horde enemies as easily as semi-mech enemies as easily as shooty enemies as easily as assaulty enemies ... and so on.

This doesn't mean that your tactics are the same against each type of opponent. Clearly, they can't be. Trying to outline possible tactical approaches to combat each type of opponent build would require multiple lengthy articles, as well!

Neither does it mean that your games are going to be necessarily easy. Of course they won't! If your opponent brings a quality list and is a quality player, you should EXPECT a challenging game. However, if your list is truly balanced and you are experienced in how to use it, you should feel confident that you at least have the capability required to win the game.

In the end, I have come to believe that the optimal way to achieve a balanced army -- whether we're talking about Tau or Tyranids or Space Marines or Imperial Guard -- is to try and select units that give you the ability to attack both enemy infantry AND enemy mech/MC. A unit must be points-efficiently capable of doing both at the same time before it merits consideration. Doing so means you don't have to slot particular units in your list to specific duties. All of your units will be capable of attacking virtually anything and everything that ANY opponent can conceivably field.

Doing so puts the weight of combating your enemies in your tactical hands. The weight isn't in the list itself -- you're not depending on certain elements of your list absolutely doing some specific mission-critical action or everything goes pear-shaped. Rather, the game's outcome (outside of truly atrocious luck) is entirely in your actual mind. Your list can be counted upon to perform whatever duty you require of it because it has been built to be completely dual-purpose and with redundant backups everywhere.

FWIW, this is the exact thinking that informs my own army lists (as exemplified in my tactica) and why you don't see unit configurations in my lists that riki recommends. In the end, it appears to me that riki is attempting to achieve an overall balance by selecting specialized units at various points throughout, whereas I attempt to achieve balance at every point in the army list. IMHO, I feel that using specialized units opens up your army to being severely weakened by allowing for the possibility of a limited number of your units to be eliminated ... and with their elimination, a severe weakening of your army's effectiveness.

This is just an overall philosophical difference I'm getting at here. I generally agree with riki on the individual unit capabilities he extols in his army breakdown above. But I'm not convinced that this leads to actual "balance" in the way I understand it.

eiglepulper
October 24th, 2009, 00:39
Lastly we have the Kroot! This unit is extremely flexible in that it can be deployed in various ways (Deep strike, infiltration, outflank) can be carried in a Devilfish, has good shooting but also has decent close combat skills. They can be used equally well in defense and offense.


The bit emphasised in red: have I been missing something about the Kroot?

Haven't read through all the article yet (because it's one o'clock in the morning and I'm knackered!) but it looks like it'll be another of your fine pieces, Riki.

E.

Rikimaru
October 24th, 2009, 11:27
The bit emphasised in red: have I been missing something about the Kroot?

Haven't read through all the article yet (because it's one o'clock in the morning and I'm knackered!) but it looks like it'll be another of your fine pieces, Riki.

E.

Yep sorry I meant reserve as in kept in reserve.

number6: I am a bit confused by this paragraph:


FWIW, this is the exact thinking that informs my own army lists (as exemplified in my tactica) and why you don't see unit configurations in my lists that riki recommends. In the end, it appears to me that riki is attempting to achieve an overall balance by selecting specialized units at various points throughout, whereas I attempt to achieve balance at every point in the army list. IMHO, I feel that using specialized units opens up your army to being severely weakened by allowing for the possibility of a limited number of your units to be eliminated ... and with their elimination, a severe weakening of your army's effectiveness.
I really do not have any specialised units (PF unit excepted) other than the Deathrain and they are usable against other targets. Yes I have units that work better against certain targets but that is impossible and even unwise to avoid, we need to be able to field units that are good at taking other units out.
The Torch squad is as useful against infantry as it is against armour with its Missile pods (a la Fireknife) and the HQ are versatile Fireknives. The only truly 'specialised' units as in specialised role are the ML squads but I have four of them so it is next to impossible to easily stop them.
The Hammerhead is not specialised (though is good at anti AV14) and the Skyray is ML support with firepower thrown in. I have redundancy all over the place so losing one unit is never going to stop me hitting a certain target type.

If you re-read the post you will see it is extremely hard to weaken any part of my list or to weaken any part of its ability to handle any target type (I/E infantry or armour).
What 'specialised' units are you actually talking about and what unit elimination are you talking about because really I play this list and trust me I know how hard it is to weaken any part of it.

Your list actually does not follow your own description of balance:


In the end, I have come to believe that the optimal way to achieve a balanced army -- whether we're talking about Tau or Tyranids or Space Marines or Imperial Guard -- is to try and select units that give you the ability to attack both enemy infantry AND enemy mech/MC. A unit must be points-efficiently capable of doing both at the same time before it merits consideration. Doing so means you don't have to slot particular units in your list to specific duties. All of your units will be capable of attacking virtually anything and everything that ANY opponent can conceivably field.

In your list you have lots of squads which are not as points efficient against all target types
You have Firkenives which cannot handle AV14 and are not that good against hoards
You have XV88's which are a specialised unit and are crap against infantry
You have Piranhas which are good blackers and can hit armour but would struggle against massed numbers of infantry type units
You have Kroot which are no good against armour.
There is nothing wrong with any of the above but they do not fit your own criteria for list inclusion you described above. Your idea of a balanced list is to oversimplified and impossible to achieve. What I aim for is taking an 'army' that can deal with all type of opponent, that can deal with all missions and that can exploit and utilise tactics to beat the opponent.

As I described above using the alpha strike to limit mobility will work against the vast majority of opponents so this needs optimising. Using mobility to avoid enemies and to gain tactical advantage is needed and I have built the list to do this in a balanced way. Using board control (and all different tactics that entails) is vital and I have built my list to do that against the 'majority' of opponents. In other words I have taken as many variables into account as I can and created a list which 'balances' those variables.
Reading what you have written it seems to indicate you have simply thought "right I need a list that can (a) deal with all unit types equally and (b) units that can hurt anything they hit" and (a) is oversimplified and will result in anyone building a list following that one criteria ending up with an unbalanced list. (b) is impossible because only two units can deal with all target types even close to efficiently and that is the Hammerhead and Helios.
So building a list following that criteria is immediately doomed to failure. Yes we can take units that deal with multiple unit types but they have to fit the list and relying on units multi tasking with equal efficiency against all targets is a bad bad impossible idea, what is better is taking units that can do a job well but can also work when that job is done.

All lists have weaknesses but what I have tried to do is show a systematic approach to building a balanced list that will perform against the majority of opponents.

I am puzzled because your list simply does not follow these guidelines:



In the end, I have come to believe that the optimal way to achieve a balanced army -- whether we're talking about Tau or Tyranids or Space Marines or Imperial Guard -- is to try and select units that give you the ability to attack both enemy infantry AND enemy mech/MC. A unit must be points-efficiently capable of doing both at the same time before it merits consideration. Doing so means you don't have to slot particular units in your list to specific duties. All of your units will be capable of attacking virtually anything and everything that ANY opponent can conceivably field.
You have Pathfinders (specialised)
You have XV88's I believe (specialised)
Piranhas (specialised in your list in that you tend to use them for blocking)
Kroot and Fire Warriors (these do not do any anti armour)
You use Deathrains at times and these are essentially anti armour.

Like I said earlier nothing wrong with any of the above but your list simply does not follow what you class as the criteria for a balanced list. Very few units can attack "virtually anything and everything that ANY opponent can conceivably field" if they could we would not need to create balanced armies we would just field masses of those units

I do agree that the weight of the game is in the hands of the players tactical ability. Which is why I said this:


The thing to remember is that the balance has to be built up from an understanding of the mechanics of good Tau gameplay.

And then went on to detail the tactics that need to be taken into consideration BEFORE you build a list. The point is that when you have an idea how to play the Tau and then build a list that exploits those gameplay traits it is easier to come up with an army that can face all the different opponent types you listed.
If you try to build a list the other way around; by listing the opponents you face and building a list to deal with them all with the same level of efficiency then you will fail because it is impossible to build a list to deal every list type with equal efficiency.

This is what I aim for:


Well balance in this context is 'the utilisation of the individual components of the army to ensure that army as a whole works in an effective way across the largest amount and variation of games encountered'.

Basically my criteria above should end up essentially achieving part of what you detail below in your quote. However no list will ever deal with all enemy types equally. No list can deal with heavy Mech as easily as it does hoard, it will always be better against one than the other


From my point of view, the only quality a "balanced" force must possess is the ability to deal with heavy mech enemies as easily as MC enemies as easily as horde enemies as easily as semi-mech enemies as easily as shooty enemies as easily as assaulty enemies ... and so on.
This is simply an over simplification (simply an oversimplification, hah I like that). Like I said if you try to build a list that can deal with every enemy type with 'equal' efficiency you will fai because it is an impossibility.
I build to be effective and you can be effective while not being perfectly or equally as efficient. Your list for instance is weaker against heavy fast infantry type lists and skimmer based armies, so your attempt to fulfil your criteria has failed somewhat. That is not a criticism because any list is weakER in some areas but what it does show is you cannot balance a list on your simplified criteria.

One of the keys to finding the balance is to deal with 'most' enemies well but also be able to survive and be competitive against the tougher enemies (the ones that Tau are not optimised to deal with).
Tau can be built to deal with just about any individual army type well and if you play games against limited list types then specialisation is fine; however to deal with the largest amount of list types you need to have a detailed understanding of tactics, mission types, scenarios, enemy list construction and build a list to take into account all those things. When you do this you will do well against the majority of unit but there will always be lists we struggle against but we can build to struggle LESS.

Balance is not a simple thing to achieve and I agree that we do have different philosophies but your list does not meet your own idea of a balance in a list. I am a bit puzzled as to what your idea of balance is because you do seem to contradict your idea of what a balanced list is with the units you take.

I am not criticising your list and I really do not want to get into another FK is better than Torch type debate (no strike that I am NOT getting into another FK v Torch debate ;)). Rather I am interested to know how you justify some of your unit choices against this statement


All of your units will be capable of attacking virtually anything and everything that ANY opponent can conceivably field. because that criteria is impossible to meet.

Swamp_slug
October 24th, 2009, 12:00
and the HQ are versatile Fireknives.

Except one is a Helios, you might want to change that in your first post to a Fireknife, or change the discussion afterwards to reflect that it is a Helios as you mention your list has 4 BS5 Missile Pod shots.
Other than that very very good article riki.

Rikimaru
October 24th, 2009, 15:34
Except one is a Helios, you might want to change that in your first post to a Fireknife, or change the discussion afterwards to reflect that it is a Helios as you mention your list has 4 BS5 Missile Pod shots.
Other than that very very good article riki.
I cut and pasted this from my list in the army list section but I have changed to two Fireknives since I last posted the list. I missed the fusion on the Shas'el, sorry about that. I changed the Fusion to a ML because with the Piranha's taking fusions I thought it better to have the BS5 Missile pods for the alpha strike. Thank you for letting me know about the error. It does however illustrate that thinking behind my list builds is always evolving and changing. In this case the change to the MP offers more advantages to the list than the Fusion when the Piranhas are taken into account.

I have changed the Shas'El.

number6
October 24th, 2009, 17:19
Very thoughtful response, riki. Danke. :)


Your list actually does not follow your own description of balance:
[...]
In your list you have lots of squads which are not as points efficient against all target types
This struck me as the crux of your post. In my opinion, the reason fireknives excel at being "balanced" is because they are not clearly anti-armour/MC nor anti-infantry units, yet at the same time they are obviously very valuable in both roles.

I agree that deathrains are valuable anti-armour/MC and anti-infantry units, too. However, it seems obvious to me that they are really only actually GOOD at anti-armour. Without more high-strength/low AP firepower, they are much weaker against MCs. Without more shots (and without more low AP shots) it is also obvious to me that they are significantly weaker against infantry, too. So, in my judgment, deathrains are specialized in a way that fireknives are not.

The same logic informs my opinion of the Torch. As with the deathrain, it is essentially a specialized suit build that clearly excels in one role (anti-infantry, especially relatively weak infantry like commonly seen in hordes) at the expense of being very useful in others (a torch really can't hurt MCs).

Regarding the non-duality units in my list that you mention. My general comment on the use of such units can be found in my tactica. To recap, I said that units that don't actually possess the kind of "balance" I seek must offer some other truly compelling reason to merit consideration.

* Fire Warriors. Not a balanced unit, but we're forced to take them. So keep the investment minimal and use them for the one thing our other "balanced" units cannot do: claim objectives. They don't offer anything else that I find valuable.

* Kroot. They're Troops. That in itself means they're worth considering regardless of their lack of balance. As it turns out, they bring a massive tactical toolbox along with them, so even if they weren't Troops I'd want to have a unit or two of these guys. And this is what merits them consideration over Fire Warriors even though FWs are also Troops. Kroot are Troops that actually bring more than just their Troops status to the table with them.

* Pathfinders. This unit is 40K's best force multiplication unit. IMHO, it's foolish not to take a sampling of a unit that boosts the efficiency of any portion of your army in any way you see fit.

* Piranhas. This unit actually has a bit of duality when you give it the fusion blaster. Anti-armour/anti-MC and anti-infantry thanks to the drones. So it passes muster -- if only barely -- on that count. (It's anti-infantry capabilities are a little thin, but they do actually exist.) However, we both agree on the massive tactical implications for your army that piranhas have on offer, so the combination is too good to resist.

Broadsides are truly balanced (railguns and SMS), railheads are truly balanced (solid shot and submunition, plus the burst cannons/SMS as needed), and obviously fireknife crisis suits are truly balanced. And there's my army build! :rotfl:

Orni
October 24th, 2009, 22:26
Thanks riki.
Almost nothing in this guide was really new to me but it really sumerizes the points you've stated in your dabete with 6 over the last weeks quite nice.


@6 I also have to say: riki is right:

Your idea of a balanced list is to oversimplified and impossible to achieve.

Your list is good, and maybe it's a good idea to tune a list to work well against MEQ since a high amount of the armies played are MEQ. However, many things you say aren't that easy as they seem to be. You're list also doesn't really follow your own instructions ... since your instructions are unrealistic.

Your list isn't balanced, you're playing a specialized list. There's nothing wrong with that ... except for you thinking it's in fact a balanced list. (it's neither a static nor a totaly mobile list but that doesn't mean it's balanced)

-your damage output is tuned to crush Marines if layed down on a chart ... just look at your weapons
-you're playing only one FW squad which is risky since they are our "game winners" in 2/3 of our games
-your crisis are all fireknifes which makes them tuned for MEQ. A balanced list would use more types of crisis (fk's aren't an all comers suit but a suit thats taking the risk of a higher miss rate to be able to deal with MEQ) better
-the setup of your list favors a special blocking playstyle over every other playstyle

all of this points are the essence of your list and in the same time, is making your list special instead of balanced. This isn't essentialy wrong or anything like that.

The majority of played armies are MEQ so it's maybe the right way to go to tune a list anti-MEQ while still having a good chance against other army types. (which actually is true only because of the fact that a list that's effective against MEQ is effective against a large part of any competetive army)


You're most propably a better player than me. But in my opinion you fail to realize the fact that creating a "balanced" list isn't the same as creating a list that's quite mechanized and that's able to deal with (maybe far) more than 50% of the played armies. Which is actually what you're trying to achieve. That's neither a wrong nor a bad idea, it's just not the same as a balanced list.

counterwavecounter
October 25th, 2009, 01:51
(fk's aren't an all comers suit but a suit thats taking the risk of a higher miss rate to be able to deal with MEQ)

I don't understand where you get this notion from. A squad of Fire-Knives, (I'll assume outside of double-tap receiving Marker-Light support), is still laying down 3 Plasma Rifle shots and 6 Missile Pod shots. That's 9 shots. If you have two of those squads you're looking at 18 shots and that will be knocking down lots of bodies in any Ork Mob or Guard platoon.

Fire-Knives are certainly a balanced suit. A specialized suit would be something like Helios, Sun-Forge, Death-Rain, etc.



Firepower

Mobility

Survivability

Offensive capability against a range of differing army types

Assault mitigation and offensive power

Defensive ability

Competitiveness across different scenarios/mission types

Redundancy

I believe this to be an excellent break-down of all the factors present in a typical game of 40K and I don't understand why you believe number6's play-style does not cover all the angles. I'm not saying your play-style is unbalanced, I think it's incredibly balanced, but I do believe number6 is also balanced.

Mobility: Fire-Knives are mobile, there's no question about that.

Survivability: number6s survivability comes from being able to out-perform your opponent's offense.

Offensive Capability: Fire-Knives are just as capable at killing MEQ as they are at killing GEQ.

Assault Mitigation: That's what the Kroot are for.

Defensive Ability: I'm sure you've heard the old saying that the best defense is a strong offense and a strong offense is what number6 tries to maximize.

Competitiveness: Okay, number6 has to be more careful in Seize Ground, (the key-words are "more careful"), but at the end of the day you only need to be holding one objective and contesting everything else. In Take and Hold number6s scoring units are not a detriment at all as there's only 2 objectives.

Redundancy: number6 has that in spades.

I think both rikimaru's and number6's armies are balanced, they just play differently, whereas rikimaru plays it a little safer, number6 goes for the all-in blitz.

Orni
October 25th, 2009, 13:00
I don't understand where you get this notion from. A squad of Fire-Knives, (I'll assume outside of double-tap receiving Marker-Light support), is still laying down 3 Plasma Rifle shots and 6 Missile Pod shots. That's 9 shots. If you have two of those squads you're looking at 18 shots and that will be knocking down lots of bodies in any Ork Mob or Guard platoon.

Fire-Knives are certainly a balanced suit. A specialized suit would be something like Helios, Sun-Forge, Death-Rain, etc.

Let me rephrase it:

My main point is: Fireknifes may be a balanced suit setup but playing nothing but Fireknifes isn't a balanced list.

A balanced list is ... well, balanced. This means it got different units with different tasks. The balanced aspect is to tune the amount of the different units so that it becomes a balanced list.

In my opinion the main task of a balanced list is to have synergy. But there's no synergy in playing only Fireknifes.

As I said, that's neither wrong nor bad to do so, but it's definitly not balanced.

Rikimaru
October 25th, 2009, 14:44
I don't understand where you get this notion from. A squad of Fire-Knives, (I'll assume outside of double-tap receiving Marker-Light support), is still laying down 3 Plasma Rifle shots and 6 Missile Pod shots. That's 9 shots. If you have two of those squads you're looking at 18 shots and that will be knocking down lots of bodies in any Ork Mob or Guard platoon.

Fire-Knives are certainly a balanced suit. A specialized suit would be something like Helios, Sun-Forge, Death-Rain, etc.
Fireknives are balanced to a point but the elite level FK's are compromised because of their need to either forsake BS or firing both weapons. The main problem I see with lists with massed elite FK's is they either miss 50% of the time or you have to invest heavily in Markerlights to ensure that at least some of them hit efficiently.

number6 takes a unit of PF and sometimes a Skyray (I believe he takes XV88's as a rule) Basically this means that only one enemy unit is going to be hit with any efficiency and more than likely two FK units are firing at BS3. That to me is inefficient and risky and it comes down to whether you are willing to accept that.

I personally would rather go for massive accurate fire in the first few turns to negate movement and then my forces have the time to take down the slower enemy, number6 goes for reliance on his Piranhas blocking effectively and the ability to whittle down opponents units with the FK;'s throughout the game. I would rather have the advantage in the first few turns and slow down the enemy.

Lets face it for the majority of games either the FK or the DR are going to be using their Missile pods for the first few turns. With that in mind we need to maximise the MP's performance, BS3 does not maximise them.

I have 18 MP shots in my list, number6 has around 20/22 but do the math and you will see I hit more and I also have more capability to remove cover saves and also up the BS of my Hammerheads.
Like I said earlier I do not want this to become another FK vs any other build thread and what I have said above is not about that, what it is about is showing how balanced list building can give you the edge in many areas.

I can hit 5 targets with MP's at a superior hit rate and remove cover saves on multiple units. number6 can hit 4 with his MP's (most of them at BS3)and has to use his one ML unit on one target unit. I leave it up to you to decide which is preferable.

The one advantage (though slight) is the Plasma but yet again unless a target is hit by multiple FK units the Plasma is not that efficient. I prefer to have my plasma on the HQ where it is much more efficient. Even with 6 shots the kill rate is low on BS3 suits, the cost is to high to justify their inclusion unless you play the vast majority of games against MEQ style lists and even then I still think they are overpriced for what they offer.

Having more Markerlights also offers another balance. It means that the list can work whatever level of terrain is encountered. Heavy terrain is negated by the ML's cover save reduction, minimal terrain fields are handled because the ML's can be used to up the BS of more units. For a game with a balanced amount of terrain the ML's can be used to up BS and remove cover. Having multiple ML sources aids balance.



I believe this to be an excellent break-down of all the factors present in a typical game of 40K and I don't understand why you believe number6's play-style does not cover all the angles. I'm not saying your play-style is unbalanced, I think it's incredibly balanced, but I do believe number6 is also balanced.
Thank you I am glad it is useful. I think number6's list is solid and a skilled player can easily use it to win a lot more games than he will lose. However it is unbalanced in some areas and it has elements that can be exploited. I will answer your points below.



Mobility: Fire-Knives are mobile, there's no question about that.
No arguments there



Survivability: number6s survivability comes from being able to out-perform your opponent's offense.
This though is not a balanced army is it? It relies on one game aspect to win and ask any military man and they will tell you that you cannot win consistently relying just on offensive power (ask the USA about Vietnam or the Russians about Afghanistan). What happens when he faces an army that can equal or even out do his offense? Yes he can keep units in reserve etc but the fact is that to outgun an opponent he has to have the units on the table. If he faces a list with superior or equal firepower then he has to commit forces to meeting that firepower. This puts pressure on his Kroot and FK units to perform. Focusing pressure on the Kroot, Pathfinders, FK's will quickly reduce the effectiveness of the list.
What happens when he faces a fast list that can get into his lines and assault thus negating that offense?
Of course this applies to all lists to one extent or another but the fact is that relying on one game play aspect is not a good idea.



Offensive Capability: Fire-Knives are just as capable at killing MEQ as they are at killing GEQ.
However as I said earlier they are limited by their BS and the single ML unit and there is a bit more to offensive capability than that. number6's army is definitely a hard hitter but there is more to offense than just hitting. Keeping the hitters alive, how much the hard hitters hit, maximising the damage when they hit, keeping the opponent away so the untis can shoot, all are important.

As an example number6 has to hit three 4+ armour save targets that are all in cover with his FK units. He has one ML source. He can reduce the cover and up the BS against one unit, that means he is hitting two targets at BS3 and the target gets cover saves, that equates to 2.5 casualties at rapid fire range with a 4+ save, to me that is not maximising damage.
I can do that much damage with one HQ Fireknife with -1 to cover saves (5+)



Assault Mitigation: That's what the Kroot are for.
Only problem is in that list the Kroot do not have redundancy. having one FW unit means that the Kroot are relied upon to do more. Having two units of FW's in DF means the Kroot are a lot more free to mitigate assaults etc.


Defensive Ability: I'm sure you've heard the old saying that the best defense is a strong offense and a strong offense is what number6 tries to maximize.
Thing is though number6's offense is not maximised.


Competitiveness: Okay, number6 has to be more careful in Seize Ground, (the key-words are "more careful"), but at the end of the day you only need to be holding one objective and contesting everything else. In Take and Hold number6s scoring units are not a detriment at all as there's only 2 objectives.
I see this same argument put forward repeatedly about minimised troops and objective missions. That one objective you mention has to be held uncontested to win and sorry but that is very very hard to achieve and is made progressively harder with diminishing amounts of troops. I have two FW units in tough Devilfishes and that means the opponent has to ensure both these units are either removed or contested. If you are happy drawing games then fine but I like to win and having more scoring units means I have a tactical advantage.
Minimised troop lists are at an immediate disadvantage and need to compensate for that disadvantage.
I don't know how you come to the conclusion that less scoring units is not detrimental in take and hold. If the opponent has more scoring units it means you have to do more to ensure the objectives are not held/contested whereas I have to remove less to ensure I win.
My list has massive firepower and yet is much more efficient at objective missions.



Redundancy: number6 has that in spades.
Yes he does but he lacks in others most notably Markerlights and troops. While one less unit may not seem much it is the units he takes that are the problem. Despite the Kroots many many advantages the fact is they are fragile. Relying on tabling opponents or just relying on outshooting opponents is unreliable. Despite what you say relying on two fragile scoring units in objectives missions is not wise and is easily exploitable



I think both rikimaru's and number6's armies are balanced, they just play differently, whereas rikimaru plays it a little safer, number6 goes for the all-in blitz.
Yes they do play differently and like I said earlier I am not saying number6's list is bad (far from it) but it is more tactically restrained and less flexible.
You mentioned my list is safer. Well no it isn't safer because that implies boring or somehow less offensive and this simply is not the case. My list is an offensive firepower list and it does it damned well but it does not do offense at the expense of tactical flexibility or defense.

I do not want to turn this into a rikimaru vs number6 thread because nothing will be served by that. What I would prefer is number6 giving us a detailed break down of what he considers when he creates his lists and if he is willing a critique of my list from a balance perspective then even better.
Trust me I am willing to discuss any criticism and I will not see it as an attack just as I hope number6 will it see the above as an attack, rather I hope he will see it as an analysis of a certain list build.
I hope others will post as well and give us insights into how they build balance into their lists.

So please if you want to pick my list apart (anyone) and tell me where it lacks balance (or indeed excels) please feel free it is what the thread is for. Discussing the aspects of balance in multiple lists will really be a useful resource.

So again I reiterate number6's list is a fine list and anyone using it will meet with more success than failure if they can handle its restrictions (and the same applies to my list). I am simply discussing what I see as weaknesses or things that can be exploited but it has many strengths.
Better at anti MEQ (no dispute their)
Slightly better at AV14
Decent redundancy in certain areas
Very mobile
Good blockading ability against many armies
Varied deployment options
Rewards skillful play and knowledge of tactics

number6
October 25th, 2009, 16:33
No worries here about criticisms, riki. :) This is one of the better back-n-forths we've ever had. Greatly appreciated from my angle.

My main point is: Fireknifes may be a balanced suit setup but playing nothing but Fireknifes isn't a balanced list.

A balanced list is ... well, balanced. This means it got different units with different tasks. The balanced aspect is to tune the amount of the different units so that it becomes a balanced list.

In my opinion the main task of a balanced list is to have synergy. But there's no synergy in playing only Fireknifes.
This is where you and I -- and perhaps riki as well? -- have a fundamental disagreement on the definition of "balance". IMHO, fireknives, being capable of tackling virtually any enemy unit with a reasonable degree of efficiency, are the very epitome of what it means to be balanced. Therefore, bringing as many such units to the table as is possible exactly and precisely constitutes a balanced list.

Which leads to other part of "balance": full redundancy. I do not rely on any particular unit to do any particular task for me. If I need armour destroyed, I have all of my crisis suits, my piranhas, my XV88s, and my hammerheads to turn to. If I need infantry destroyed, I have all of my crisis suits, my piranhas, my XV88s, and my hammerheads to turn to. If I need terminators or MCs desroyed, I have all of my crisis suits, my piranhas, my XV88s, and my hammerheads to turn to. If I need.... you get the picture. ;)

Something like 90% of the points in my list are all "balanced". The vast majority of my army list can be counted on to effectively contribute to the game plan no matter what enemy I am facing. And because the list is so balanced and so redundant, I can accept losses and not suffer tactically as a result. Losing a hammerhead does not significantly decrease my ability to hunt armour. Losing a unit of fireknives does not significantly hamper my ability to slaughter a horde. (One assumes that I am also inflicting losses on my opponent. If I'm not, well, I guess I'm going to lose the game, aren't I? :rotfl:)

If that's not balanced, I don't know what is! :rotfl:

I feel like the focus on the fireknife build misses the forest for the trees. The forest is balance, duality of purpose, and redundancy. No other crisis suit build meets all three of these criteria. Only the fireknife does. That's why I use it. But it's also exactly these three criteria that lead to my use of broadsides, railheads, etc. Applying just this one set of criteria leads -- or should lead -- to obvious conclusions as to what units to employ and how to equip them. The fireknife is only ONE example of that thought process, and it's not the only one.

riki is absolutely correct that the fireknife isn't the most efficient horde killer. (His torch or a bladestorm are arguably more efficient at this one task.) But nevertheless it remains reasonably efficient at the task. It has lots of shots that are going to inflict multiple wounds. Torrent of fire principle. Same as gunline Orks or gunline IG have. Pump out more shots, inflict more wounds. Done.

And I could continue this line of thinking to every other type of enemy target (e.g., MCs, terminators, MEQs, transports, etc). The ultimate point, however, is that only the fireknife build (and XV88s and railheads and ...) can provide me with a degree of effectiveness and efficiency across all types of enemy units. Clearly that balance comes at the expense of focus, but I consider that to be A Good Thing! I want balance, I don't want specialization.

IMHO, using multiple specialized units opens you up to be severely weakened if you are unfortunate enough to lose a key specialty that you require. Say I'm up against some horde nids, and I lose my one unit of torches. Suddenly the horde suppression that I am requiring from that unit -- a role not adequately covered by my deathrains -- severely hampers my ability to combat the horde. This does not happen if I'm using all fireknives instead. I lose that unit, I still have more where that came from, and I know exactly what to expect from them, too.

Or say I'm up against heavy mech IG, and I lose my unit of deathrains. My torch unit will have to make up the slack, but it's clearly nowhere near as effective as the deathrains are. (Or fireknives, as Str 6 weapons are acceptable anti-armour weapons. Ask any Eldar player who uses Vypers, or IG players who use Chimeras.) Suddenly you're hampered in your ability to combat your mechanized opponent.

Most of our focus has been on crisis suit builds. But again, I want to draw this out to the wider forest. The point of my last couple of paragraphs is this. If you use specialized units (e.g., crisis suits like deathrains or torches), then your opponent will know what is most deadly against him and what is least deadly against him. Specialized units telegraph where you are strongest against an opponent and also where you are weakest. This lets your opponent focus on the few deadliest elements of your army in hopes of knocking them out and gaining a strategic advantage as a result. The only way I know to counter that is by using only truly balanced units throughout your entire army. If you present no obvious strength, you also present no obvious weakness. If your entire army is equally deadly to your opponent, you are forcing them to consider what to do about it. There is no obvious unit to attack, no obvious strategy to engage. And you have the further advantage of being confident that you will always posses tools appropriate to the task at hand no matter who or what you face across from you.

haddatt
October 25th, 2009, 18:13
I have been watching this mostly from the sidelines. As always Rikimaru has put together a well thought out and well written summary of what he feels is the best way to build an effective and balanced list. Number6 has also done the same for his list.

I believe that both make very valid points and great arguments on the finer points of their list. I enjoy the banter and I think a discussion of this caliber is very helpful to all Tau players as it does bring out some solid ideas and tactics to use.

However we are looking at two different people who utilize different style of play. While I am confident I could take either list and do well with them, I prefer my variation on the lists they propose. It is uniquely styled by myself to fit my specific way of playing.

For example I like using a squad of XV88s. It isnt my primary heavy choice as I will always pick a hammerhead first but my 2/2 or 3/3 choice will invariably be a squad of these.

I do a squad of 2 xv88s with advanced stabilization, a team leader with TL and 2x shield drones.

I usually place these to effectively lock down a good fire lane or two. While they have limited mobility I like the fact that it gives me the ability to shoot at 2 seperate targets and they tend to draw alot of fire which the 2+ save and shield drones can absorb.

What I have seen from my tournaments is that the variations between Number6 and Riki both prove effective. As you can see from their totals they are still quite close.

................................

One thing I wanted to add to Rikimarus original post when he talked about torrent of fire. One thing to keep in mind with trying to this, you tend to have a lot of fire warriors. Depending on the board set up and terrain, it does get hard to set up all these units. Plus, they can start to get into each others way.

aussiedave
October 25th, 2009, 23:36
By Rikimaru

Firepower

Mobility

Survivability

Offensive capability against a range of differing army types

Assault mitigation and offensive power

Defensive ability

Competitiveness across different scenarios/mission types

Redundancy

Every single one of the above categories needs to be taken into account individually but also needs to be balanced against every single one of the other categories. Concentrating to much in any one single area will result in detriment to other areas.


By Number6

being capable of tackling virtually any enemy unit with a reasonable degree of efficiency, are the very epitome of what it means to be balanced. Therefore, bringing as many such units to the table as is possible exactly and precisely constitutes a balanced list.


Here I was thinking that balance meant being able to defeat any army (something that both Riki and 6 can do) without tailoring the list to specific opponents.

Semantics are a beautiful thing =)

Dave

Rikimaru
October 26th, 2009, 00:35
Here I was thinking that balance meant being able to defeat any army (something that both Riki and 6 can do) without tailoring the list to specific opponents.

Semantics are a beautiful thing =)

Dave

Well how shall I say this, our Ozzie chums are not renowned for their depth of thought ;);)

aussiedave
October 26th, 2009, 02:43
Well how shall I say this, our Ozzie chums are not renowned for their depth of thought ;);)

Why use ten words when two say the same thing.

Dave

Rikimaru
October 26th, 2009, 16:04
Why use ten words when two say the same thing.

Dave

Yeah but everyone knows the more verbose you are the more brains you have :sinister: I must be really brainy because people are always calling me verbose (or is it gobby).


No worries here about criticisms, riki. :) This is one of the better back-n-forths we've ever had. Greatly appreciated from my angle.
Excellent I too am enjoying the 'back and forth'



This is where you and I -- and perhaps riki as well? -- have a fundamental disagreement on the definition of "balance". IMHO, fireknives, being capable of tackling virtually any enemy unit with a reasonable degree of efficiency, are the very epitome of what it means to be balanced. Therefore, bringing as many such units to the table as is possible exactly and precisely constitutes a balanced list.

There are two schools of thought with XV8's:

(1) Jack of all trades, master of none

(2) Specialised

I agree with neither, yes suits like the Deathrain have a primary role but the fact is each suit has two high strength highly accurate shots and that is useful against anything. The same goes for the Torch squad. My unit has 6 BS3 MP Shots a turn (exactly the same as the Fireknife squad) and this means that while its primary role is anti hoard it can (and does) work against other targets effectively.

XV8's should be outfitted to perform a primary role, which is dictated by the tactics of the Tau army (detailed above in the article) and can then go on to provide firepower against secondary targets after its primary role is achieved. However achieving the primary role is all important. What good is it to have the option to be relatively efficient when an enemy is in your face? It is much more preferable to have the means to efficiently and reliably stop that enemy from getting in your face.

Relying on units to multitask with equal efficiency is not a good thing.



Which leads to other part of "balance": full redundancy. I do not rely on any particular unit to do any particular task for me. If I need armour destroyed, I have all of my crisis suits, my piranhas, my XV88s, and my hammerheads to turn to. If I need infantry destroyed, I have all of my crisis suits, my piranhas, my XV88s, and my hammerheads to turn to. If I need terminators or MCs desroyed, I have all of my crisis suits, my piranhas, my XV88s, and my hammerheads to turn to. If I need.... you get the picture. ;)

Something like 90% of the points in my list are all "balanced". The vast majority of my army list can be counted on to effectively contribute to the game plan no matter what enemy I am facing. And because the list is so balanced and so redundant, I can accept losses and not suffer tactically as a result. Losing a hammerhead does not significantly decrease my ability to hunt armour. Losing a unit of fireknives does not significantly hamper my ability to slaughter a horde. (One assumes that I am also inflicting losses on my opponent. If I'm not, well, I guess I'm going to lose the game, aren't I? :rotfl:)

If that's not balanced, I don't know what is! :rotfl:

Accept losses and not suffer tactically! What about losing Piranhas, losing the kroot? Losing the Pathfinders? All three of these units are weak points in your list and have little redundancy. If you lose them you suffer tactically to a large degree.

Losing the Piranhas will nerf your major tactic, losing the Kroot reduces your effectiveness in objective missions. Losing the Pathfinders removes your ability to up BS or remove cover saves.

I agree with your aim of achieving full redundancy but it is impossible to attain. I think it is better to equip the list to inflict as much damage to the key areas of the enemy that allow the Tau's weaknesses to be mitigated.
This basically equates to making sure your forces stay out of harm’s way while laying down withering fire as quickly and effectively as possible.

My list has redundancy only not in the same way as yours.

I/E infantry: handled by Hammerheads, Kroot, Torch, Fire Warriors, XV8 HQ, Deathrains (yes they do anti infantry)

Armour: handled by Hammerheads, Piranhas, HQ XV8's, Deathrains, Torch, Skyray

Termies: handled by, Torch (yes they do work), HQ,XV8's Piranhas, FW's (massed firepower with those ML's I have lots of), Hammerheads, Skyray

Hoards: handled by Hammerhead Subs, Torch, Kroot (but I can use them freely because I do not have to worry about losong troops), Firewarriors
etc etc etc

However I also have redundancy in the fact that I can keep units working efficiently by virtue of my multiple ML resources. I can lose a unit of ML's and still have multiple units benefiting from BS boosts or cover save reduction, I can boost the other units to take up the slack.

I have no area (save the Piranha) where losing one unit will significantly affect my performance against a certain unit type.

I can lay down massively effective alpha strikes and then use the ML's to up the performance of units and keep it up throughout the game. My troops are massively redundant and this means I can utilise them as offence not just defence, I can lose both Kroot units and still perform effectively.

The optimised alpha strike means I am not overly reliant on the Piranha blockade nor the Kroot to stop units getting to my lines, this frees them up and gives me more redundancy because I can use both units to provide redundancy in other roles.

I have all this but I also have units that are built to do a primary job well (specialisation if you will) yet it does not affect the redundancy of my list in the slightest taking them.



I feel like the focus on the fireknife build misses the forest for the trees. The forest is balance, duality of purpose, and redundancy. No other crisis suit build meets all three of these criteria. Only the fireknife does. That's why I use it. But it's also exactly these three criteria that lead to my use of broadsides, railheads, etc. Applying just this one set of criteria leads -- or should lead -- to obvious conclusions as to what units to employ and how to equip them. The fireknife is only ONE example of that thought process, and it's not the only one.

Agree about the Fireknives focus but it is basically a microcosm of your list ethos. I simply do not agree that no other suit can do what you say. The Torch squad does everything you mentioned above in spades. I could take three Torch squads and still have an effective list. I simply prefer the accuracy boost and quick kill potential of the Deathrains along with the performance of the HQ Fireknives and the Torch squad doing what is needed.



riki is absolutely correct that the fireknife isn't the most efficient horde killer. (His torch or a bladestorm are arguably more efficient at this one task.) But nevertheless it remains reasonably efficient at the task. It has lots of shots that are going to inflict multiple wounds. Torrent of fire principle. Same as gunline Orks or gunline IG have. Pump out more shots, inflict more wounds. Done

And I could continue this line of thinking to every other type of enemy target (e.g., MCs, terminators, MEQs, transports, etc). The ultimate point, however, is that only the fireknife build (and XV88s and railheads and ...) can provide me with a degree of effectiveness and efficiency across all types of enemy units. Clearly that balance comes at the expense of focus, but I consider that to be A Good Thing! I want balance, I don't want specialization.
IMHO, using multiple specialized units opens you up to be severely weakened if you are unfortunate enough to lose a key specialty that you require. Say I'm up against some horde nids, and I lose my one unit of torches. Suddenly the horde suppression that I am requiring from that unit -- a role not adequately covered by my deathrains -- severely hampers my ability to combat the horde. This does not happen if I'm using all fireknives instead. I lose that unit, I still have more where that came from, and I know exactly what to expect from them, too

Or say I'm up against heavy mech IG, and I lose my unit of deathrains. My torch unit will have to make up the slack, but it's clearly nowhere near as effective as the deathrains are. (Or fireknives, as Str 6 weapons are acceptable anti-armour weapons. Ask any Eldar player who uses Vypers, or IG players who use Chimeras.) Suddenly you're hampered in your ability to combat your mechanized opponent. .

Well the key is obviously to build the list so it can absorb any loss and does not rely on one unit to do a job. My list has (by your definition but one I do not really agree with) three specialised units. Losing the Torch unit does not mean I cannot handle hoards (I have two HH’s, two FW squads, two Kroot squads, 2 HQ XV8’s, 2 DR’s all can hurt hoards). Same goes for the Deathrains, while it is obviously better to have them doing the armour busting.

I can still do the job if one or even both units are lost (I have two FK HQ (BS5), two Hammerheads which will be benefiting from ML support 99% of the time, Piranhas, Skyray and the Torch squad which again will have ML support). However while the DR’s are there they do the job much better than a Fireknife and even if I lose the DR’s I have enough ML’s to up the BS of the Torch unit to up its effectiveness (that balance!!).

The thing I like though is the fact that I am not relying on one unit type to do multiple jobs. Losing just one FK unit means your effectiveness has gone down by a third across ALL the roles you expect them to perform. They are already compromised with BS3 and not enough ML support and every loss hits you across all those roles not just one.

You say specialisation is a severe weakness but I disagree (I even disagree on the word specialised; I prefer ‘suits with a primary role’ which is different). If you balance the list correctly those specialised units bring massive benefits but the balance of the list negates the weaknesses. This is one of the overriding points I wanted to get across.”It is better to have effective units within a balanced list than to have units that try to do too much”



Most of our focus has been on crisis suit builds. But again, I want to draw this out to the wider forest. The point of my last couple of paragraphs is this. If you use specialized units (e.g., crisis suits like deathrains or torches), then your opponent will know what is most deadly against him and what is least deadly against him. Specialized units telegraph where you are strongest against an opponent and also where you are weakest. This lets your opponent focus on the few deadliest elements of your army in hopes of knocking them out and gaining a strategic advantage as a result. The only way I know to counter that is by using only truly balanced units throughout your entire army. If you present no obvious strength, you also present no obvious weakness. If your entire army is equally deadly to your opponent, you are forcing them to consider what to do about it. There is no obvious unit to attack, no obvious strategy to engage. And you have the further advantage of being confident that you will always posses tools appropriate to the task at hand no matter who or what you face across from you.

The above argument is the weakest and most self contradictory you have yet put forward. Your army relies on Fireknives and Piranhas, they are your ‘obvious’ strength, any player will see them for what they are quickly (any player with sense). Where is that any different to taking a unit of Deathrains?

No army is built where all its units are equally deadly to an opponent ‘none’. Your list for instance, Piranhas, Fireknives and Kroot these are the obvious units that you rely on to make your list work.

Piranhas are not equally deadly, neither are Kroot or Firewarriors etc etc.

Landraider! Firewarriors are as equal a threat to that as a Hammerhead? Piranha is as equal a threat to a unit of Hormies as a Rapid firing FK squad? That FK HQ is as much a threat to a unit of Wyches as the Kroot squad with its hounds? You get my point.
Equality of effect across an opponent’s army is unachievable and you quoting it as a strength is misleading and inaccurate, your Piranhas are a strength but not because they are equally as effective across the opponents army.

My list has weaknesses and strengths and to say any differently is foolish. My units are certainly not equally effective across an opponent’s army. If I meet massed AV14 I will struggle but I do not meet massed AV14 much so why build to deal with it.
My units are not all equally effective against AV14 so the opponent is ALWAYS going to focus on the units that are (as they will in your list). There are points of focus in my list just as there are in yours, if you think differently you are deluding yourself.

The key is making sure those focus points do not destabilise your list. You cannot hit one unit (or even two) in my list and stop me from being effective in the area those units work in. I can aim for your FK’s and reduce your effectiveness at handling a wide range of opponents just by removing those units, you have too much reliance on those three units and that is a point of focus. I have those roles you have shoehorned into three units spread widely throughout my list which makes it harder to stop me doing performing those roles.

You rely on Piranhas to prevent movement; that is a point of focus. You have one FW unit and two fragile Kroot to handle objectives; that is a point of focus.

Your list fails to meet the criteria you set out. Your units are not equally as deadly to all opponents and your list has plenty of focus points and it definitely has obvious units to attack and there are obvious strategies to engage it (obviously dependent on army facing it). This is no different to any other list but you seem to think an opponent would look at your list and be flummoxed and this is simply not the case.

To my mind your list relies too heavily on three inefficient multipurpose units, on one particular tactic (blockading), has no redundancy in the Markerlight department, has a weak troop contingent with next to no redundancy and has a particular weakness in certain mission types. To me this is not a balanced list in so far as I judge balance. Like I said my list has weaknesses but I believe it is more balanced.

Right dinner time is over back to work:curse::sweat::excruciating::weep::(

Pingl000
November 18th, 2009, 17:02
Thanks for the read. As a new Tau player (newb player entirely really), it really gave some good info.

Do you have your Commanders running by themselves? Does the ability to target more units and run get you more survivability then having additional wounds to allocate?

Where do you find yourself setting up your Kroot? do they outflank a lot or infiltrate?

How do you use your FW offensively? Are they just waiting for their chance to move up in transports to score or do you have them laying down fire at all?

Thanks again for the insights.

number6
November 18th, 2009, 18:33
Welcome to The Greater Good!

The answers to all your questions -- from my point of view -- can be found in the first few posts of my tactica, linked in my signature, below. But, very briefly....

1. Commanders: I never give them drones, and often run them solo. But, just as often, will end up joining him to a unit of crisis suits at some point, or perhaps at multiple points, throughout the course of game for protection.

2. Kroot: Almost never outflanking. That is near useless. Infiltration is the way to go. It's how you protect yourself from drop pod/deep-striking armies and how you put speedbumps and initial pressure on other foes. Outflanking is not reliable and also takes away your only real close combat threat.

3. Fire Warrior Offense: IMHO, fire warriors suck. At lot. And I say this as someone who owns a ton of them and has painted nearly all of them. I love the models and the fluff, but in games I just have no use for them. Their rules leave me cold. They don't kill much, have no ability to tackle anything but infantry (and not necessarily very well at that), and they are so very squishy if blasted out of their devilfish. (Which reminds me, never leave fire warriors on the table if you can help it. Always keep them in the devilfish.) Take as few FWs as you can and load up on Kroot and Crisis suits instead. You know, the good stuff out of the Tau codex.

Rikimaru
November 18th, 2009, 19:52
Welcome to The Greater Good!

The answers to all your questions -- from my point of view -- can be found in the first few posts of my tactica, linked in my signature, below. But, very briefly....

1. Commanders: I never give them drones, and often run them solo. But, just as often, will end up joining him to a unit of crisis suits at some point, or perhaps at multiple points, throughout the course of game for protection.

2. Kroot: Almost never outflanking. That is near useless. Infiltration is the way to go. It's how you protect yourself from drop pod/deep-striking armies and how you put speedbumps and initial pressure on other foes. Outflanking is not reliable and also takes away your only real close combat threat.

3. Fire Warrior Offense: IMHO, fire warriors suck. At lot. And I say this as someone who owns a ton of them and has painted nearly all of them. I love the models and the fluff, but in games I just have no use for them. Their rules leave me cold. They don't kill much, have no ability to tackle anything but infantry (and not necessarily very well at that), and they are so very squishy if blasted out of their devilfish. (Which reminds me, never leave fire warriors on the table if you can help it. Always keep them in the devilfish.) Take as few FWs as you can and load up on Kroot and Crisis suits instead. You know, the good stuff out of the Tau codex.

What you actually mean six is that FW's suck 'in your lists' because they do not suck in mine. 30" range STR5 weapons do not suck, you always harp on about guns, guns and more guns but you ignore some of the best infantry guns in the game.
The problem with your list is you have next to no ML's and FW's work damned well with ML's for instance I take units of 9 FW's and if you know what to hit and when they do incredibly well. For instance:

Nine Fire warriors at 12"

TGH3, 5+ save units = 10 casualties on average with +1 ML to give BS4 (yeah that sucks)
TGH3, 5+ save units = 12.5 casualties on average with +2 ML to give BS5 (even suckier)
TGH4, 4+ save units = 4 casualties on average with +1 ML to give BS4 (rubbish)
TGH4, 5+ save units = 10 casualties on average with +2 ML to give BS5 (how bad can it get)
TGH4, 4+ save units = 5 casualties on average with +2 ML to give BS5 (diabolical)
TGH4, 3+ save units = 3.33r casualties on average with 2+ ML to give BS5 (pathetic MEQ killing trash)

So over a range of targets a mere 9 Fire Warriors with ML help will kill a healthy amount. Even against MEQ's they do OK. Take for instance a Fireknife unit at 12" at BS5, they will kill 5.55 MEQ's on average. Now that is a 180+pt unit with ML help added to the cost. A nine man FW units with Ui costs 100pts with exactly the same ML help costs.
I know FW and FK's have different uses but the fact is that in the correct lists FW's offer a lot to a list and they can hurt a lot. In fact Kroot work much better with a few units of FW's then with just one minimised unit.
True enough the FW unit should never be left on the field on foot but used in a Devilfish and dropped when needed to add firepower they are a very effective unit.

number6
November 19th, 2009, 03:45
If FWs could more effectively kill anything with armour better than 4+...

or

If FWs could get more than 1 or 2 turns worth of shooting ('cause you agree with me that they should be in their transport for most of the game)....

or

If FWs had special weapons that allowed them to tackle enemy armour....

or

If FWs offered important tactical options -- like scouting, or infiltrating -- to the army....

If FWs had any of those abilities. Which is to say, if they had any general utility, or any ability to contribute offensively over the entire course of a game without getting killed, I would rate them at least worthy of consideration.

Except that they possess none of that. I rate all of the above to be of paramount importance.

So when it comes to killing: Crisis Suits are just more points efficient. Not only because they are better point-for-point at killing anything with a 4+ save or better, but also because they are more resilient, more mobile, will contribute offensively every single game turn, AND they can tackle armoured targets. They are far deadlier than FWs can ever hope to dream of.

And when it comes to tactical utility: Kroot are also Troops, Kroot are cheaper, it's easy to get Kroot into a 2+ save situation just by infiltrating them into forests (so they're actually tougher than FWs), and infiltration itself has tons of utilitiy, Kroot still shoot well with bolter-equivalent weapons, AND Kroot are also the only unit in the Tau codex capable of not totally sucking in close combat. Kroot beat the pants off of FWs for points efficiency and actual usefulness in the Troops slot no matter how you look at it.

All FWs bring to the Tau army is the ability to shoot at enemy infantry. Well, I can get at least that good an option out of many other units that aren't FWs, and all of those other units bring additional benefits to the table that FWs simply do not. FWs simply do not cut the mustard when compared that way.

Rikimaru
November 19th, 2009, 12:42
If FWs could more effectively kill anything with armour better than 4+...

They can as I have shown even a nine man squad with ML help (which the FK units need to do the job before you mention the FW’s needing ML’s) can kill 3 MEQ’s a turn on average and will often kill more (luck). If we go this route then Kroot suck as well and should ever be taken and they cannot even utilise ML’s. Yep Kroot are awesome but their shooting is below par when compared to a FW.



or

If FWs could get more than 1 or 2 turns worth of shooting ('cause you agree with me that they should be in their transport for most of the game)....
Again not a valid point, Kroot will often only get one turn of shooting in a game but we do not throw up our hands in horror and say “nope not taking em”. Fire Warriors are taken for objective control and to offer the Kroot the opportunity to do what they do well (blocking, anti assault, infiltrate). FW’s do not need to do more than one or two turns of shooting and anyway many units do not get much more than that in a game. The Piranha for instance will rarely use its Fusion more than once or twice a game.
Fire Warriors should be protected because they serve a valuable purpose in the game but that does not mean they cannot be used offensively, all depends on what is needed at the time.




or

If FWs had special weapons that allowed them to tackle enemy armour....
Yeah like Kroot do. FW’s are not anti armour they are troops, yes it would be nice to have an option for Tau troops to have a bit of anti armour but they don’t (none of the troop options) so why use it as a negative.




or

If FWs offered important tactical options -- like scouting, or infiltrating -- to the army....
Err they do just not in the way you think. Kroot work much better with Fire Warriors present in decent amounts, not overwhelming but just enough of them). Scouting is pretty much useless for Kroot anyway and taking Fire Warriors to occupy objectives can and does free the Kroot up to be a lot more proactive with those abilities you mentioned.
Without FW’s the Kroot are restricted to defending/taking objectives and because of this it is often too risky to use the Kroot offensively. Some of the Kroots main roles are denying board space, defending other units and preventing DS. They can do these things much easier and with much more freedom in missions were troops are THE asset if you are not worrying about losing the troop contingents. Having two units of FW’s in Devilfish means the player is much more free to use the Kroot offensively and as defence units for the more valuable units (like those FK’s you rely on so heavily) and to deny movement etc
Taking the FW’s gives the player much more tactical flexibility than just taking Kroot and the bare minimum of FW’s



If FWs had any of those abilities. Which is to say, if they had any general utility, or any ability to contribute offensively over the entire course of a game without getting killed, I would rate them at least worthy of consideration.

Except that they possess none of that. I rate all of the above to be of paramount importance.

So when it comes to killing: Crisis Suits are just more points efficient. Not only because they are better point-for-point at killing anything with a 4+ save or better, but also because they are more resilient, more mobile, will contribute offensively every single game turn, AND they can tackle armoured targets. They are far deadlier than FWs can ever hope to dream of.
XV8’s do a different job (which I mentioned) I included the kill rates to show that FW’s can kill things and kill them quite well. XV8’s are far deadlier than most Tau units so using this as an argument is futile and irrelevant. The point you made was FW’s have no offensive capability and that is a patently incorrect statement. I kill things with FW's on a regular basis.
Just because you do not how to utilise them it does not mean they suck as you put it. Deriding a unit because it does not fit YOUR play style is short sighted and does not help Tau tactical development.



And when it comes to tactical utility: Kroot are also Troops, Kroot are cheaper, it's easy to get Kroot into a 2+ save situation just by infiltrating them into forests (so they're actually tougher than FWs), and infiltration itself has tons of utilitiy, Kroot still shoot well with bolter-equivalent weapons, AND Kroot are also the only unit in the Tau codex capable of not totally sucking in close combat. Kroot beat the pants off of FWs for points efficiency and actual usefulness in the Troops slot no matter how you look at it.
Kroot are awesome no argument there but comparing them like for like is futile and pointless. You said it yourself Kroot have tactical utility and they bring this to the Tau list. I would NEVER take a list without Kroot, however and it is a big however I would not take a list without two units of FW’s in Devilfish. Why? Because they make the Kroot so much better and they allow the Tau player to fully utilise that tactical utility the Kroot bring to the game.
Kroot are not and have never been tougher than FW’s. Yep go to ground in woods and your fine apart from the following:

This is the most obvious, what happens when there are no woods/jungel?

Next

(1) you cannot do anything offensive
(2) Will the woods/jungle be exactly where you need it to be
(3) Kroot stuck in woods do not exactly help if the gameplay does not revolve around said woods
(4) Flamer and other cover negating weapons
(5) Try leaving the cover in response to the tactical situation

Fire Warriors get a 4+ save whatever the situation. Plus they have cover with the DF (remember they can occupy objectives while in the DF). Fire Warriors in cover can put out twice the number of shots with +1 STR at opponent units trying to take objectives.
Kroot are good at CC no question; however how do you hold objectives etc or use the Kroot to blockade when you have to throw them into CC. Taking FW units I can hold two objectives and still utilise all that Kroot goodness or in KP missions I can add the FW’s firepower to the Kroots.
You see the difference here is I do not compare the Kroot to the Fire Warrior because that is pointless. Yes we can debate which if the crunch came and we had to choose which we would take (I would take the Kroot) but we do not have to do that. The difference between you and I is I see the FW and Kroot as totally complimentary to each other. Both units alleviate the weaknesses of the other and both units support and improve the strengths of the other. They work beautifully together and taking two units means it is easier to get the full utility from each unit.



All FWs bring to the Tau army is the ability to shoot at enemy infantry. Well, I can get at least that good an option out of many other units that aren't FWs, and all of those other units bring additional benefits to the table that FWs simply do not. FWs simply do not cut the mustard when compared that way.
It is not just about shooting infantry, it is about giving the Tau player the flexibility to operate well in all mission types. Your tactical perspective of the role of FW’s is way too narrow.

Pingl000
November 19th, 2009, 15:41
So Kroot are more or less defensive support units? I know that their attack is great and all, but it's not recommended that you use them offensively or on outflank.

So what, put some trees on the board, place a marker in there, and have them defend it?

I'm just wondering if I'm missing some opportunities with the Kroot I'm just not seeing.

When the lists are loaded with Deathtrain and Fireknife are the heavy weapons on the hammerheads and the random other S5 vehicle weapons enough to handle some ork boy mobs and nids that can head your way?

number6
November 19th, 2009, 15:44
It is not just about shooting infantry, it is about giving the Tau player the flexibility to operate well in all mission types. Your tactical perspective of the role of FW’s is way too narrow.
On the contrary, everything you have said in both of your posts boils down to the fact that the only thing FWs can do is shoot at infantry. That's the exact opposite of flexibility. That's the exact opposite of utility. It is, in fact, precisely the definition of "narrow", tactically speaking. Every other unit I mentioned does more than that one singular task, which is why they are better than FWs.

Rikimaru
November 19th, 2009, 17:21
On the contrary, everything you have said in both of your posts boils down to the fact that the only thing FWs can do is shoot at infantry. That's the exact opposite of flexibility. That's the exact opposite of utility. It is, in fact, precisely the definition of "narrow", tactically speaking. Every other unit I mentioned does more than that one singular task, which is why they are better than FWs.

On the contrary fella, the FW do more than just shoot. They are by far and away the best way to hold objectives(I know you always dismiss this but objectives are important). While Kroot can indeed get a 2+ save if they go to ground in wooded or jungle terrain the fact is that all objectives are not of those types. FW's in DF are extremely tough to shift from an objective.

Park a DF next to an objective (and if KP's are not a problem) dismount the Drones, make sure the DF has disruptions and you have a decent AV bunker. The opponent has to destroy the DF and then has to go through the Drones and the FW's to gain control (make sure they have bonding).
If the FW's are out of the DF in normal cover then they get a 4+ save as well as whatever cover save the terrain offers.If the opponent charges them in cover then unless they have grenades they attack last so the FW's are not shifted easily even in CC.
So while I have the objectives under control the Kroot can go out and do their stuff without fear of my list being left without enough to control objectives. This is the flexibility.

Just what can Kroot do that is so different to the Fire Warrior?

Shoot? Both units are infantry killers, however the extra point of STR means that FW's can damage armour if they draw LOS to AV10 (which many many vehicles have and is easily done) they can even destroy AV10 while Kroot can only glance. Fire Warriors also have the advantage of rapid fire and an extra 6" range. So FW's do what Kroot do here only better.

Assualt? Unless Kroot take Hounds or large units they are only marginally better than FW's. Yes they get more attacks but the save of the FW's somewhat equalises this. Kroot do come out on top but only if they are in large (15 to 20 man units) or take Hounds. In fact we all know that unless Kroot have Hounds then they should not instigate assaults.

Objective holding? FW's will always come out on top here. Even in wooded terrain the Kroot are vulnerable to template weapons and only get 2+ if they go to ground. FW's come out top here. FW's can take bonding which makes them harder to shift. So FW's do what Kroot do here only better.

Special rules? Kroot get infiltrate which is a real bonus but putting Kroot in danger in objective based missions by infitrating is dangerous unless you have sufficient troop numbers to allow their sacrifice. Fire Warriors help with this. FW's also have transports which means they can get where they want in safety and reasonably fast (Kroot can take transports but it somewhat negates all those nice attributes).

Blockading? Kroot are good at this no question, being cheap with good shooting and CC (with Hounds). However I use FW's in DF to blockade and to great effect. A Devilfish with Drones has decent firepower (eq to 5 FW's) and is tough to shift, however even if it is destroyed the opponent has to go through the FW unit as well. So both are good at it in different ways.

You know I am not saying FW's are better than Kroot or that Kroot are bad (you know how much I love me Kroots) but the fact is all you seem focussed on is FW as an offensive unit and that is a narrow perspective. Just as saying Kroot are simply an assualt unit is a narrow perspective. My two units of FW's make it easier for me to win games and not just by shooting infantry, my Kroot can do what they do best whatever the mission and I have won more than a few games because my opponent could not win or shift me from objectives.

If you simply look at any unit in a totally one dimensional way then yes it is easy to say they are not useful but the fact is no unit works in isolation. My FW units help my entire army in the ways I have explained. Yep if they all the did was shot infantry then I would not take them but the fact is they don't just do that.
My list is better for their inclusion, my kroot are much better for their inclusion and that is all I need to know.

number6
November 19th, 2009, 17:38
So Kroot are more or less defensive support units? I know that their attack is great and all, but it's not recommended that you use them offensively or on outflank.
Depends on your opponent. Kroot kick IG and Orks around the table with ease. Kroot excel at tarpitting basic marines, and -- given enough hounds -- can even win combats against them. Kroot (again, with enough hound support) -- can at least speedbump many enemy assault units. Infiltrating them ahead of your army forces your enemy to deal with them. If only for a turn or two, your Kroot can keep the enemy away from your lines.

And that's just the assault capability of Kroot. If you've got them in terrain, they can harass with shooting, too.

In two recent games against Tyranids, both with Dawn of War deployment, I strung my Kroot out across the center of the table. They're cheap, so I had enough of them to go all the way across. That forced the 'nids to deploy no further onto the table than 6". And then my Kroot were there to intercept their fastest units before they got too far.

You can infiltrate Kroot just ahead of your main force to prevent alpha strike shenanigans by IG Valkryies, Vendettas.

And so on.

So what, put some trees on the board, place a marker in there, and have them defend it?
That's entirely feasible, too.

I'm just wondering if I'm missing some opportunities with the Kroot I'm just not seeing.

When the lists are loaded with Deathtrain and Fireknife are the heavy weapons on the hammerheads and the random other S5 vehicle weapons enough to handle some ork boy mobs and nids that can head your way?
Not always. Because Tau crumple so very badly when enemies are in our face, you simply must have "utility" units like Kroot (and Piranhas) in your list to manage enemy deployment and maneuverability. Kroot are part of how you control the board and enemy movement to your advantage.

Rikimaru
November 19th, 2009, 18:11
Not always. Because Tau crumple so very badly when enemies are in our face, you simply must have "utility" units like Kroot (and Piranhas) in your list to manage enemy deployement and maneuverability. Kroot are part of how you control the board and enemy movement to your advantage.

And having more than minimum FW's gives them the flexibility to do this without having to worry about keeping/taking or contesting objectives. They also allow the kroot to be much more offensive and in KP missions add a decent amount of firepower to help the Kroot. The faster the Kroot target is destroyed the quicker they can move onto another. Dismiss this as much as you like but the fact is if it is easier to win in ALL missions then the better the list is.

starfire
November 22nd, 2009, 11:30
once again riki and 6 are 'discussing':sinister: what makes a balenced list,(which some how turned into a 'my list is more balenced than yours discussion' lol) so to return everyone to normality (and to answer riki's reqeust for other people to show what they think is a balenced list) here is my list with basic tactics

HQ
shas'el, plasma rifle, misslepod, targeting array, hard-wired multi-tracker, 97pts
hard accurate firepower, jumps about everywhere unleashing death to everything
ELITE
2 xv8, 2 plasma rifles, 2 misslepods, 2 multi-trackers, 124pts
fireknive unit, predominatly uses the markerlights to be a hard hitter with the sha'el, may take on transports
2xv8, 2 plasma rifles, 2 burstcannons, 2 multi-trackers, 116pts
not commenly used but there my best anti infrantry unit, used to sneak up on 1 side and take on infrantry units out of cover (i play a lot of dark eldar, IG, and even marines succumb to the amount of firepower this unit dish's out
2xv8, 2 twinlinked misslepods, 2 targeting arrays, 106pts
ok its hard to explain how i use these but basically i do not rely on them to pop transports much, (they might help with a popshot at 1 but not much else) as thay always need a minimum of a 4+ to destroy av 10, and anything better and you might as well blow at the said vehicle, i predominatly use them to bring heavy hitting accurate firepower to support my troops. (think mobile seekers with 1 less S and AP)
TROOP
10 firewarriors, shas'ui, bonded, 115pts
feet on the ground behind cover (OMG!) unless 1 of 2 things happen, to many casulties from shooting or enemy is getting too close
10 firewarriors, shas'ui, bonded, 115pts
if im playing objectives then 1 unit hops into a devilfish and will sweep round the side of the board to capture/contest
11 kroot, 4 hounds, 101pts
these are my haressment unit, infriltrated forward and bascially causing a nuisance for the enemy to think about
FAST
4 pathfinders, shas'ui, bonded, devilfish, disruption pods, multi-tracker, 158pts
sit back and light up prioity targets
4 pathfinders, shas'ui, bonded, devilfish, disruption pods, multi-tracker, 158pts
sit back and light up prioity targets
1 pirahna, fusion blaster, targeting array, disruption pod, decoy launchers, 75pts
blocking and tank stalking, not much else
HEAVY
1 hammerhead, railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pod, 165pts
targets transports first, once dealt with, move on to heavy vehicles (unless the heavy veicles are bearing down on them to much), occaisional sub shot at infrantry
1 hammerhead, railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pod, 165pts
targets transports first, once dealt with, move on to heavy vehicles (unless the heavy veicles are bearing down on them to much), occaisional sub shot at infrantry
ARMY TOTAL 1500pts

i like to think this is a slight merging of both riki and 6's type of list, comprising of enough heavyhitting firepower, anti infrantry, redundancy, mobility, objective taking ability and enough markerlights to ensure at least 2 units a turn are hitting at BS5, which rounds the force off well.

obviously this list isn't to everyone's taste (take the bladestorm's for instance) but it performs well for me, winning over 50% of the time and the rest are usually draws. i would like to know if people think this is balenced from there pespective, and if not suggest some changes which i'll try out (sorry riki, no torch squad i tried that unit and lets just say i cant do them justice lol) any suggestions WILL be tried (1 at a time) and i will let you know how it performs. dont just make suggestions tho i need the tactics to use with your suggested unit so i can properly integrate it into my list

i look forward to any suggestions!


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