Could the "lesser" Gods overthrow the Chaos gods?

[Heirodule]

reading through some codexs the other day, i found that there are at least 3 Gods in the warp that are non-chaos and there may be more i dont know of. The 3 im thinking of are Gork, Mork and the laughing Eldar god, Cregoroach, worshipped by the harlequins.

now to me it seemed reasonable that Gork and Mork, combined, could well take down a Chaos god, and the Eldar god would obviously want to combat Slannesh.

So my question is could there ever be a godly overthrow, that would see one or more of the chaos gods destroyed?

[Axle_Gear]

Short answer: Probably not.

Gork and Mork combined probably could take down a chaos god or two, but an alliance between them is just as likely as all the orks in the galaxy uniting under one cause. They just like squabbling too much to do anything else.

And while there is the Laughing God, he was the lone survivor of nearly the entire Eldar pantheon. The rest were eaten by Slaanesh, with the exception of Kain who was broken into a million pieces in his battle with She Who Thirsts. And mind you, Kain was a god of war.

Also, considering Chaos is the one thing that nearly anyone in the galaxy would unite against, such an overthrow should have already happened if it could.

[thenewKhan]

I would say no, partially because I was under the impression Gork and Mork were more "ideas" than actual gods. Admittedly, I have done very little on research of Orc gods. Hah

But the Eldar god would not be able to defeat Slaanesh from my understandings, and Slaanesh is said to be less powerful than other Chaos gods (at times at-least?) such as Khorne.


If the 3 COULD combine strength, then POSSIBLY they would do some harm, but GW wont let fluff get that far I don't think. Hah

[Intrepid]

I can't answer for the WHFB fluff, but in 40k the Orks really don't have a god. They claim to worship Gork and Mork but the Orks draw their actual psychic ability from themselves. An Ork will use magic to make a ramshackle truck work because he and a bunch of fellow Orks believe that it will, rather than praying to G&M to 'bless' the truck for them. That's why Orks tend to gather in groups--it amplifies their psychic abilities.

Even if Gork and Mork actually exist, they do not appear to have personalities yet. I doubt Khorne would die to a nonsentient warp god.

As for the Eldar, their last living god is in hiding. Khaine was the only Eldar god that was able to put up a fight against Slaanesh at all and he got torn apart like a kid's toy from McDonald's. The Laughing God is not, and almost certainly never will be, able to kill Slaanesh. There are a few fluff indicators that the Eldar are creating a new "God of the Dead" using the souls they managed to store away from Slaanesh but their fluff also indicates that they will die out long before this new God has a chance.

Think about it as a question of fuel. There are immense amounts of warfare, deceit, disease and...kinky stuff in the 40k galaxy. In order to kill a warp creature that feeds off something so plentiful, a lesser god would probably need an equally potent power source. Occasional Waaghs and some dead elves in stasis aren't going to be enough. A quintillion humans worshiping the Emperor might be.

Similarly, the fuel source issue helps explain why warp creatures don't team up. Gods that use different 'fuels' have different goals, different methods, even different thought processes. I doubt they can even communicate with each other without going through lesser, 'impure' intermediaries.

[winginson]

The only real way for the gods of chaos to be defeated is if every creature in the galaxy with a warp presence stops spilling blood, cures all disease, stops making plans ans stops desiring things. Very unlikely for everybody to do that while still alive, and even less likely in the grim darkness of the far future.

[ze_poodle]

It's possible that one could be overthrown or replaced by a new warp entity, provided there was a similar evolution in the real world to mirror it. There wouldn't be a noticeable difference though. New boss, same psychotic daemon god.

A parallel is something from Good Omens, which is a comedy novel about the Apocalypse. When the Four Horsemen show up, Pestilence has retired and been replaced by Pollution because people just don't care about disease any more; they're way more scared of global warming and oil spills.

[rafis117]

Even if Gork and Mork exist, they would exist in the WAAAGH! (or whatever the warp-similar dimension that Orks draw on is) and not the Warp.

Cregoroach survived Slaanesh burning and slaughtering the other Eldar gods by hiding. He is no match for Slaanesh, though it is theorized that the Eldar are particularly vulnerable to Slaanesh's attacks; they dug their own grave.

To understand, Khaine, the Eldar God of War, who lived in the warp, was able to take on most of the rest of the Eldar pantheon (a more obvious display of Greco-Roman inspiration) by himself in combat.

Gods. Duking it out in the Warp.

And Khaela Mensha Khaine was a match for most of them singlehandedly.
Khaine fought Slaanesh, and Slaanesh didn't kill Khaine outright at the beginning of their duel because Slaanesh had just been born and had carved up a large part of the warp, killed off a pantheon of Gods, and as a result had to actually fight to kill the Eldar incarnation of war itself.



The only reason that Tzeetnch, Khorne, and Nurgle tolerate Slaanesh is that Slaanesh is nuts-powerful, (literally as well, sadly;) and could probably take them by himself/herself/itself.

[thenewKhan]

The only reason that Tzeetnch, Khorne, and Nurgle tolerate Slaanesh is that Slaanesh is nuts-powerful, (literally as well, sadly;) and could probably take them by himself/herself/itself.

In the previous Chaos codex in the Khorne page, it says that Khorne is generally the dominant god. From that alone I would imagine they are saying that the others wouldn't be able to tackle him down very easily. And if the 3 other all decided Slaanesh wasn't worthy of existence, I am sure all 3 of them would be able to snuff him out pretty easily.

I think the reason (or one of) that the older 3 gods let Slaanesh be, is because although he is pesky and irritating, he posses no SERIOUS threat to the others. He relies on something less abundant than Nurgle and Khorne, and lets face it, Tzeench is a complete BA, who may not gain power from something MORE abundant than pleasure, but he has certainly had more TIME to gain that power, and has by no means lots his "fuel" source.

[Laughing God]

You lack an understanding of the warp and the essence of chaos gods themselves. They are not living individuals thats can be beated or replaced. They can hardly even be called sentient energy. They are omnipitent, raw, emotions, mortal acts of will made emortal through echos in an alternate dimension. You talk about khorne and slaanesh like they r Tison and Holyfield. Just doesnt work that way. At one point or another all of the chaos gods were as powerful as the last and they have always been present. Slaanesh was not created by the eldar so much as he was given presense in the minds of mortals through thier sheer power in the warp.

Long story short they four always have been and always will be, they are the most primal and powerful parts of all mortals and will never go away as long as there is chaos in the material realm its amplified echoes will egist in the warp. There will always be chaos!

Praise be the dark prince! and praise be to chaos!

[Imperator100]

Not without the help of the emperor.

[Dead Dude Walking]

A couple ways to make a new god-

Remember, the emperor was the incarnate of all the humans with any psychic potency, now he's dead (well close enough). But there is a theory that if they kill the big E and all his direct children (who happen to be immortal and pretty close to the primarchs) at the same exact time, the Emperor will be reincacrnated like he was 50000 years ago, as the star child.

In the craftworlds, the souls from all the dead eldar mingle in their infinity circuits. If all the souls of trillions of dead eldar smash into one, what's stopping them from becoming a new god and overthrowing slaanesh with the help of Cregoroach. But it says that every eldar would have to be dead before they would have enough power to do that.

But first they can free Isha from Nurgle cuz nobody ever remembers that she's still alive.

@laughing god- If the theoretical 'god' was defeated by the other 'god(s)' the emotions of mortals would still flow through the warp, but wouldnt feed a 'god' until the emotions accumulated enough to form a sentient being(?)

[Visitor Q]

While there is conflict within the warp and undoubtably 'lesser gods' could weaken or obstruct the Chaos gods, in truth none of the gods can really be killed without something equally catastrophic happening in the real world. When the Eldar gods were destroyed this coressponded with the complete decline of their culture and destruction of their Empire.

So the short answer is no the lesser gods couldn't permanmently take down the Chaos gods but not because they aren't powerful enough, simply because the warp needs some stimulus from real space as well.

That said the warp is a strange place and there are no fixed rules.....anything could happen.

(Incidentally I'm not sure how lesser Mork and Gork are, they are more like Nurgle waxing and waning with the power of the orks)

[omegoku]

Gork and Mork are as strong as Khorne and the other Gods.
Gork and Mork could not take out the 4 Gods, but the 4 Gods could not take out Gork and Mork either.

There is a story somewhere of Gork and Mork taunting one of the Chaos Gods and then shrugging off their attacks and laughing at them. Its in one of the Ork Codii I think

These Beings are simply to big and powerful to be snuffed out by anything short of the end of the universe.

The Eldar Gods were not warp gods at all, and if they were they were very minor in comparison.

[rafis117]

Well...reading the Eldar codex, it's pretty certain that the Warp is where the Eldar pantheon existed.

Basically, the gods existed in "heaven" but one wanted a way to communicate with the Eldar, so he made the Webway, which bridged the gap between realspace and the gods' world.

Additionally, when Slaanesh killed the Eldar ones, where else would they have done it? Certainly not in the Webway, or the Eldar couldn't still use it. Certainly not in real space - a war of Warp gods in real space would be... bad. More bad than a single, star-spanning empire spontaneously collapsing.

[Heirodule]

Thanks for the feedback all, very interesting to read.

[Marius the Possessed]

Well...reading the Eldar codex, it's pretty certain that the Warp is where the Eldar pantheon existed.

Basically, the gods existed in "heaven" but one wanted a way to communicate with the Eldar, so he made the Webway, which bridged the gap between realspace and the gods' world.

Additionally, when Slaanesh killed the Eldar ones, where else would they have done it? Certainly not in the Webway, or the Eldar couldn't still use it. Certainly not in real space - a war of Warp gods in real space would be... bad. More bad than a single, star-spanning empire spontaneously collapsing.

The Webway was created before the Eldar, by the Old Ones. It's how they consistently kicked the crap out of the Necrontyr. The communication thing was the spirit stones created by Isha.

And the Eldar gods, according to myth, used to walk amongst the Eldar, before the Eldar king god seperated the two. And there are stories of Khaine fighting the Nightbringer, and since the Nightbringer can't exist in the warp, that must have been in the real universe. So the Eldar gods, unlike the Chaos gods, seem to be super-powerful daemons.

Of course, just because they haven't crossed over doesn't mean the Chaos Gods can't...

[rafis117]

Now there is a... comforting... idea. The Chaos gods in real space? Don't even want to imagine what would happen.

[Laughing God]

And that kids is the ultimate goal of chaos, to consume the material world.

But back on topic: All gods and entities in the warp can be considered deamons. They just need to feed off of enough souls to reach god status. The four most powerful deamons being the chaos gods. The eldar gods could not hold a candle to them (but they egsisted in a time of peace in the warp), Gork and Mork are debatably real but if they were still couldnt touch the big four, and the lesser chaos gods (Malice, Malal, Despair, that wierd dark angel thing some of the fallen worship, ect) deffinately couldnt mess with them.

In my opinion the only real forces that could disrupt the massive power that is the chaos gods in the warp would be the emperor who is almost god status to rival them, Yneead (eldar death god) still in the making but if eldrad says he can do it why not?, and theoretically the Hive mind (more nids consume in the material world the more of a shadow presence they build in the warp).

Other than that nothing can touch them and their seat of power. I guess the C'tan could eventually completely shut off the material world from the warp eventually but as soon as life came back the chaos gods would also be reborn.

[Imperator100]

There are other chaos gods? First time I have heard that.

[rafis117]

There are other Chaos gods, but they aren't worth mentioning. They're barely more than the Daemon Princes that the Fallen Primarchs became.

[Nikolas]

Not quite on topic but I thought I would just add that while Slaanesh used to be a lot weaker then the other Chaos gods something happens to be happening that is changing the flow of power. Slaanesh is the god of excess, right? and what are the major chaos gods like Khorne? Violence to the point of excess, or Nurgle... which I am kind of lost on but as all the gods are something embodied and then some they have that amount of excess start to fuel Slaanesh.

Tell me if that made as much sense as it did in my mind.

[rafis117]

They do all compete to some extent; if their spheres of influence were completely non-overlapping, they wouldn't give two cents about each other. Both in the warp and without, they compete for everything. Practically the only thing that they DO agree on is how they hate everyone who isn't both human and against the Emperor.

[thenewKhan]

Not quite on topic but I thought I would just add that while Slaanesh used to be a lot weaker then the other Chaos gods something happens to be happening that is changing the flow of power. Slaanesh is the god of excess, right? and what are the major chaos gods like Khorne? Violence to the point of excess, or Nurgle... which I am kind of lost on but as all the gods are something embodied and then some they have that amount of excess start to fuel Slaanesh.

Tell me if that made as much sense as it did in my mind.

Yes, but at the same time, when the victims of all the gods die, the decay, all the gods to some extent have to plan things out, and all the gods are very violent.

Also, I have been under the impression that the gods only gain power from mortals committing such acts, or there daemons, not each others actions, or an entirely unrelated race for that matter. (Such as Nids)

[Unquisitor]

It isn't really possible to defeat the chaos gods, mainly, attacking Khorne is an act of violence, bloodlust and rage which is just feeding him and making him stronger, Tzeentch would always know what you would do and alter it, not sure about Slaanesh other than most of the Eldar gods died from hearing him/her cry, and Nurgle, well he is completely immune to pain and he can easily infect his attacker with rot. Long answer short, it's just not possible. Their domains are dangerous to say the least.

I wouldn't have a clue about Gork and Mork.
Even when all the Eldar die and the new god would only be a minor threat like Khaine.
The hive mind couldn't attack them, it isn't interested, it wants bio-mass not beings of the warp, even if they did have material forms (which they do, it says in the daemon codex.).

Edit: The only reason the emperor is left slightly alive is to give humanity hope which is more fun to whatch and feeds the ever thirsting gods more.

[Dead Dude Walking]

With Kaine, being the god of war, he would've grown to ten times the power of the chaos gods because he would've thoreticaly been able to feed off of even the chaos gods, not just mortals, or is there something stopping this.

A quick question, the tyranids came from the next galaxy right? So does the warp exist outside the milky way? If so, then the hive mind would've eventually have found out how to enter the warp and kinda destroy EVERYTHING! The nids do have zoanthropes and other psychically potent creatures.

Does this make sense to anyone?

[Marius the Possessed]

None of the gods are significantly more powerful than the others, and in the rare case that one does become that powerful (ie, Tzeentch at one point) the other three team up to knock him off his pedestal.

And the Eldar Gods weren't killed by Slaanesh's cry, that was the majority of the Eldar race. All those billions of psyker souls fuelled him up to the level of his buddy Gods, and then he went and ate almost the entire Eldar God Pantheon, so he's pretty powerful. The only reason he couldn't beat Khaine is because A: Khaine as the god of war couldn't be beaten, only broken, or B: Khorne interfered, claiming Khaine for his own. The accounts vary on that.

[omegoku]

As I said Gork and Mork are on par with a Chaos God. They are tough and cunning.

the Chaos Gods are not the same as the Daemons who work under them. they create Daemons from their own energy, and can uncreate them at will.

The Emperor is on par with the Chaos Gods, he has more worshippers, and was a threat to them before he was put in the throne. He is even more powerful now.

[Marius the Possessed]

With Kaine, being the god of war, he would've grown to ten times the power of the chaos gods because he would've thoreticaly been able to feed off of even the chaos gods, not just mortals, or is there something stopping this.

A quick question, the tyranids came from the next galaxy right? So does the warp exist outside the milky way? If so, then the hive mind would've eventually have found out how to enter the warp and kinda destroy EVERYTHING! The nids do have zoanthropes and other psychically potent creatures.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Khaine only fed off the Eldar though, being the Eldar god of war (same as how Gork and Mork only feed off Orks). The Chaos Gods feed off anyone, but mostly humans.

As for the tyranids, they do travel in the warp, my understanding is that that's how they get from system to system. Otherwise it would take far too long, and they don't have fancy necron tech to do that. And the Hive Mind doesn't destroy things in the warp, it blocks them out. To destroy thing it needs to use its tyranids, and something physical in our realm can't destroy something created of daemon essence while in the warp. Otherwise the Imperium could theoretically launch an attack on the Chaos Gods themselves.

[Doomlord]

Khaine only fed off the Eldar though, being the Eldar god of war (same as how Gork and Mork only feed off Orks). The Chaos Gods feed off anyone, but mostly humans.

As for the tyranids, they do travel in the warp, my understanding is that that's how they get from system to system. Otherwise it would take far too long, and they don't have fancy necron tech to do that. And the Hive Mind doesn't destroy things in the warp, it blocks them out. To destroy thing it needs to use its tyranids, and something physical in our realm can't destroy something created of daemon essence while in the warp. Otherwise the Imperium could theoretically launch an attack on the Chaos Gods themselves.

id they did that they would fail..........because it is like the chaos gods going in to the material and goingon rampage..........shuddders:nailbiting:

[aounfather]

As I see it there is no chance of any of the other "Gods" taking out the Chaos Gods. the only things that could would be if the Tyranids and/or Necrons were successful in eating/destroying all life in the Galaxy (this assumes that Chaos is only in this galaxy) Because this would take all of the stuff that the Gods feed on out of the equation and they would cease to exist.

Although I guess you could say that the Necrons/C'Tan wanted to eat all life also.

Since the Tyranids are coming from outside the galaxy we can assume that this has already happened somewhere else.

[Dheorl]

From what it says in the necron codex, the warp gods haven't always exsisted... not as everyone else is concerned. I suppose seeing as their is no time in the warp in a sense they have always exsisted, but it gets a bit confussing there.

By shutting off the warp, the C'tan wouldn't be attempting to kill the chaos gods, just permantly seperate them and their influence from the materium, leaving them to induldge themselves for eternity in peace.

As stated, the various gods power vary, but seeing as if one of the 4 gets too powerful, the other 3 gang up on him, I'm sure if something outside the 4 got powerful, they would all gang up. I don't think anything could beat all 4 chaos gods at once.

Also isn't there one chaos god, who is meant to be stupidly powerful (not one of the 4), but just doesn't bother, or am I getting storylines mixed up. I've been out of the hobby a while and something else may have leaked in.

[Nikolas]

From what it says in the necron codex, the warp gods haven't always existed... not as everyone else is concerned. I suppose seeing as their is no time in the warp in a sense they have always existed, but it gets a bit confusing there.

By shutting off the warp, the C'tan wouldn't be attempting to kill the chaos gods, just permanently separate them and their influence from the materium, leaving them to indulge themselves for eternity in peace.
Just as a side mention to this, would it be true to say that the only reason the Chaos Gods can affect the known universe is thanks to the Eye of Terror. This would explain why the Necrons were never effected by the Chaos Gods was because the Eye of Terror wasn't around yet. Following this logic if the C'tan could close the Eye of Terror they would stop the chaos gods from influencing the universe directly, so no more demons.

I think the theory works but please criticize the errors.

[Dheorl]

Necrons were not effected because when they were still in their mortal form the warp gods were not around in their current state. It was the warp gods appearing and killing off everything that forced the C'tan into stasis.

The great powers and I think even powerful greater deamons can open rifts between the warp and the materium at will so closing the eye of terror won't keep the deamons out. All places like the eye of terror does is make it easier for more deamons to come through, beause it doesn't require energy to open them/keep them open.

I'm not sure how the C'tan plan on shutting the warp off.

[Nikolas]

Necrons were not effected because when they were still in their mortal form the warp gods were not around in their current state. It was the warp gods appearing and killing off everything that forced the C'tan into stasis.

The great powers and I think even powerful greater daemons can open rifts between the warp and the materium at will so closing the eye of terror won't keep the daemons out. All places like the eye of terror does is make it easier for more daemons to come through, because it doesn't require energy to open them/keep them open.

I'm not sure how the C'tan plan on shutting the warp off.
Just to mention that

The Warp gods are not what sent the C'tan into stasis it was the enslaver horde that did that.
The C'tan were in the middle of closing off the warp, or at least the place where psychers get their psychicness from.
Wouldn't that mean they were almost about to cut the warp away meaning no psychic stuff which I believe would mean demons couldn't manifest in our universe anymore?

[Dheorl]

Well warp creatures, close enough.

I'm not sure how close the C'tan actually got, and yes, shutting off the warp would mean no psykers I geuss, and also no deamons. I was just saying that closing the eye of terror wouldn't have that effect, because that is not the only way deamons can get into the real universe.

[Nikolas]

Ok, point taken on the eye of terror thing.

Also sorry if I was a bit competitive with he debate, they are just rather fun sometimes :D

[rafis117]

Further, there were both Human and Eldar psykers before the Fall of the Eldar, which created the Eye.



Thought that it would be a good idea to bring up the Cadian Gates, as they are were built by the Necrons (or so I have heard) to contain the Warp.