Cheesy Space Wolf Tourney list, Part II

[jy2]

Ok, I've tried out my 1st space wolf tourney list (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/space-marine-army-lists/182032-cheesy-space-wolf-tourney-list-1-5k-2k.html) at 1500pts and I found that it wasn't quite cheesy enough (then again, I used it against another space wolf list with Njal and Ragnar). Actually I did modify it slightly by exchanging 1 squad of Grey Hunters for another squad of Long Fangs. I like the LF's, but the problem was that there were too few units that mattered (scoring troops) and he wiped them out for the draw. While wolf guards are good, they're not really necessary when I have a RP attached to each squad already so I got rid of them in order to keep my extra squad of GH's and LF's.

So here is my revised list. Again, C+C welcomed.


1500pts

Alpha Squad
Rune Priest - Chooser, Meltabombs, JotWW + Living Lightning - 115
8x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 140
Rhino - EA - 50

Beta Squad
Rune Priest - Wolftooth Necklace, JotWW + Murderous Hurricane - 110
8x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 140
Rhino - EA - 50

Gamma Squad
Rune Priest - Meltabomb, Living Lightning + Tempest's Wrath - 105
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 125
Rhino - EA - 50

Omega Squad
Rune Priest - Living Lightning + Murderous Hurricane - 100
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 125
Rhino - EA - 50

Heavy #1
6x Long Fangs - 2x Lascannons, 3x Missile Launchers - 170

Heavy #2
6x Long Fangs - 2x Lascannons, 3x Missile Launchers - 170

Total - 1500


2000pts

Recon Squad
5x Wolf Scouts - 5x Meltabombs, Meltagun - 110

Gamma Squad
+1 Grey Hunter (for a total of 8x GH's)

Lambda Squad
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltaguns, Power Weapon - 170
Rhino - EA - 50

Heavy #3
6x Long Fangs - 2x Lascannons, 3x Heavy Bolters - 155

Total - 2000



ALTERNATIVE 2000pts List

Cavalry #1
3x Thunderwolf Cavalries - 1x PF - 175

Cavalry #2
3x Thunderwolf Cavalries - 1x PF - 175

Cavalry #3
3x Thunderwolf Cavalries - 150

Total - 2000

[Frank Fugger]

Alpha Squad
Rune Priest - Chooser, Meltabombs, JotWW + Living Lightning - 115
8x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 140
Rhino - EA - 50

Beta Squad
Rune Priest - Wolftooth Necklace, JotWW + Murderous Hurricane - 110
8x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 140
Rhino - EA - 50

Gamma Squad
Rune Priest - Meltabomb, Living Lightning + Tempest's Wrath - 105
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 125
Rhino - EA - 50

Omega Squad
Rune Priest - Living Lightning + Murderous Hurricane - 100
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Power Weapon - 125
Rhino - EA - 50

Not seeing the cheese. One Meltagun per squad? What's JotWW for, in case they want to get out and Melta some infantry? What happens when you're up against Unguents or Runes Of Warding? Or The Horror; good luck on those Ld7 psychic tests with no invulnerable save. Also two shooting powers. And why Murderous Hurricane? Is that for when you want something to stop moving so your awesome CC Grey Hunters can smash it?


Heavy #1
6x Long Fangs - 2x Lascannons, 3x Missile Launchers - 170

Heavy #2
6x Long Fangs - 2x Lascannons, 3x Missile Launchers - 170

Total - 1500

Still not seeing the cheese; they start losing weapons the moment they start taking wounds, and aside from the 4 Rhinos there's nothing else to shoot at. Long Fangs work best when there are other things that NEED to die; I don't really think Rhinos filled with pseudo-cheesy units qualify as something that NEEDS to die. Rune Priest does not equal Farseer; Rhino dies, you get stuck in CC, no JotWW for you. Rhino gets shaken, you're stuck inside, no JotWW for you. Rhino gets immobilised in your deployment zone, you're walking, no JotWW for you.



2000pts

Recon Squad
5x Wolf Scouts - 5x Meltabombs, Meltagun - 110

Gamma Squad
+1 Grey Hunter (for a total of 8x GH's)

Lambda Squad
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltaguns, Power Weapon - 170
Rhino - EA - 50

Heavy #3
6x Long Fangs - 2x Lascannons, 3x Heavy Bolters - 155

Total - 2000

Not adding a great deal to either your firepower or your Long Fangs' survivability here. Wolf Scouts that can't be shot at and don't really need to be shot at, +1 Grey Hunter in a squad, and a 170pt Deathride Rhino.

If you want cheese, Thunderwolves are the way to go. Not Rune Priests. They're not cheesy at all.


EDIT: You have 5 Rhinos and 3 Long Fang packs on the table at 2000pts. Does that seem cheesy to you? :-s

[cheeky plague]

im not seeing the cheese either apart from the rune priests which could be better but i dont see the need for the sacrasm hes oput it on here for C&C not for you to be bitchy like a little girl hes asked forconstructive help not for you to be nasty so either help and point out where he has gone wrong & could do better or shut up i hate ignorant people who have loads of posts and rep who think they can speak to people how they like

[Frank Fugger]

im not seeing the cheese either apart from the rune priests which could be better but i dont see the need for the sacrasm hes oput it on here for C&C not for you to be bitchy like a little girl hes asked forconstructive help not for you to be nasty so either help and point out where he has gone wrong & could do better or shut up i hate ignorant people who have loads of posts and rep who think they can speak to people how they like

I hope the irony of this post isn't lost on you.

[cheeky plague]

no offence mate but it gets my back up it just sounded like school yard crap i agree with what you said but its the way you said it and there is no irony in my post as all i said is help or be quiet as you dumped on him from a height but didnt offer an alternative

[jy2]

good luck on those Ld7 psychic tests with no invulnerable save.


Are you talking about the RP's? I'm not sure where you're getting LD7 from.



What happens when you're up against Unguents or Runes Of Warding?


While Runes may be a nuisance, I'll shut down any farseer (or any psyker for that matter) that comes within range of my RP's. That's 4 attempts at 4+ to nullify psychic powers.



Or The Horror;


I believe you mean Shadow in the Warp. SitW is weak at best. It increases the chance of failure from something like 11% to 17% only...and I don't suffer any Perils on a 1,1 or 6,6.



Also two shooting powers.


Right. I've got 3x Living Lightnings and 2 JotWW. I could go hide in the corner and still blow up his transports.



And why Murderous Hurricane? Is that for when you want something to stop moving so your awesome CC Grey Hunters can smash it?


Oh...MH is awesome. Honestly, it's much better than Jaws IMO. I was able to get it off twice through Njal's defense in my first SW game. Each time I killed 2-3 space wolves and then he lost another 1-2 when he tried to moved them (I already disabled his rhinos). He didn't dare assault with them lest he take another dangerous terrain test...and also because he had already lost half his squad!




Still not seeing the cheese; they start losing weapons the moment they start taking wounds, and aside from the 4 Rhinos there's nothing else to shoot at. Long Fangs work best when there are other things that NEED to die; I don't really think Rhinos filled with pseudo-cheesy units qualify as something that NEEDS to die.


To be honest, Long Fangs are probably my biggest area of concern. Much as I like them, they're still a static unit. Terrain and enemy deployment (as well as DoW deployment) will affect their performance greatly. And my greatest fear would be to face a guard army with collosi or even their 72" battle cannons.

It's just that they did a lot in my last game, even though it was only 1 game. They took out a dreadnought, 2 rhinos, a whole bunch of grey hunters and blood claws, Njal and Ragnar. More importantly, they prevented my opponent from the win by forcing his last scoring unit (of which only 2 models remained) to go-to-ground, thus preventing them from reaching the objective (he had to g-t-g or be wiped).



Rune Priest does not equal Farseer;


No, but you could almost get 2 RP's for the price of 1 jacked-up farseer.



Rhino dies, you get stuck in CC, no JotWW for you. Rhino gets shaken, you're stuck inside, no JotWW for you. Rhino gets immobilised in your deployment zone, you're walking, no JotWW for you.


I've got no problems with that. Unlike other wolf lists with Ragnar, Logan, wolf guards, or thunderwolves which are pure hammer lists and need to advance to be effective, a list with RP's is more of a finesse list. I can advance, or I can also sit back and still affect the enemy. And I won't really be relying on JotWW unless if it's nidzilla, necrons, tau or orks. Destroy my rhinos and I'll still Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane the opponent to death.



Not adding a great deal to either your firepower or your Long Fangs' survivability here. Wolf Scouts that can't be shot at and don't really need to be shot at, +1 Grey Hunter in a squad, and a 170pt Deathride Rhino.


Most armies have some type of heavy support that will just sit back and shoot. My scouts are for those armies. Besides, just knowing I have scouts will make my opponent deploy out of their "comfort" zone and essentially mess up their basic strategy. Worst case scenario is that they deploy further from the edges but a lot closer to my main force. Easier for me to "reach out and touch someone".



If you want cheese, Thunderwolves are the way to go. Not Rune Priests. They're not cheesy at all.


TW's are good, I'd admit. Problem is their point costs. To be effective, you're going to have to spend at least 200pts for them. It's just that I can't afford to in a 1500 list, at least not with all the HQ's I would be using. I could, however, change out Squad Lambda in my 2000pt list for some TWC. For this list, I wanted to see how strong RP's spamming is. I'd probably experiment with spamming TWC's at some future date.



@cheeky plague

It's cool bro. I appreciate Frank's candor. He speaks his mind, even if it's a little rough in the delivery, where most people would probably not say anything.

[Frank Fugger]

So it was the lack of an alternative that annoyed you?

2000pts
HQ
Canis
Rune Priest w/ Chooser, Living Lightning & Storm Caller
Canoness w/ Auspex, Book & Bolter
GK BroCap w/ Psychic Hood

Troops
10x GH, 2x Meltagun, MotWulfen
10x GH, 2x Meltagun, MotWulfen
15x Fenrisian Wolf
15x Fenrisian Wolf

Fast Attack
4x Thunderwolf Cavalry, TH, 1x Bolter, 1x Meltabombs
3x Thunderwolf Cavalry, TH, 1x Bolter
3x Thunderwolf Cavalry, TH, 1x Bolter

Heavy Support
Long Fangs, 3x Missile Launcher
Long Fangs, 3x Heavy Bolter

1770pts. 230pts to spend on whatever; I'd probably throw a couple of cheap Lone Wolves with wargear Wolves in there to act as cover saves/ CC shields for the Long Fangs, plus another 150pts of whatever you fancy.

A lot better than 5 Rhinos and 3 Long Fangs packs, innit?

[jy2]

Ok, Frank, hope you don't mind if I be as brutally honest about this alternative list as you were to mine.

This list will get trashed literally by any good guard player. 5+ cover saves, stubborn and a psychic hood don't mean crap to 5-6 battle cannon or executioner shots.

You've only got 2 scoring units (but have enough points for a 3rd or even 4th one). Unfortunately, with the lack of transports, they're not going anywhere fast. That's ok with C&C or KP missions but you'd be at a heavy disadvantage in Seize Ground. Fenrisian wolves are a distraction at best but will die as quickly as orks to rapid fire.

Apart from 3 ML & 1 LL, you have no ranged AT.

The most dangerous is Canis and your TWC that's for sure, but they won't stand up to massed fire. They not as tough as ork nobz nor as survivable as TH/SS assault termies.

Your list is not better than 5 rhinos and 3 squads. They're different that's for sure, but this build won't go far in tourneys. You're lacking focus. The focus should be on your TWC's. Forget the cannoness and GKBC. If you want psychic defense, drop the RP as well and get Njal, attache a squad of GH's to him and put them in a rhino. That's a 24" radius measured from the hull of the transport that nullifies psychic powers on a 3+. Put every other troop choice in rhinos as well. With your TWC's charging towards the enemies, they'll momentarily forget about your rhinos.


--------------------------------


BTW, per your suggestion, I've created an alternate 2000pt lists using TWC's.

[Frank Fugger]

I'm getting my Hive Mind powers mixed up; I was thinking of Psychic Scream, not SitW. Which is exactly the same as Runes of Warding except you don't suffer Perils attacks, and is in fact better if you have Psychic Scream up. Hard to roll less than 9 on 3D6. The only things that'd particularly care about Jaws are Carnifexes, and if they're sitting across the board Glancing your Rhinos or putting wounds into your Long Fangs they don't have much reason to worry. Necrons and footslogging non-Green Tide Orks are a different story altogether. They'll care plenty, and are probably the only two armies I can see it really being effective to the point of cheese against, because everything else either has psyker defences, high enough Initiative, enough vehicles, or any combination of the three for Jaws (and indeed LL) not to matter much.

In and of itself it's not a horrendously bad army list. It's better than most, purely because it's actually a Space Wolves list as opposed to an "I could've made this with the vanilla Codex but wanted my Marines to be grey" list. It's still a gimmick list though, and it's not a particularly cheesy one either.

[jy2]

I actually play nidzilla myself. The problem with going against the wolves is that I have to kit myself out against them. That means I would be forced to take 3 zoans rather than another godfex and SitW instead of Warp Field or Psychic Scream for my tyrants. Well, that gives me a chance against the wolves, but I've just wasted 180pts on worthless zoans when I go up against mechanized guards or fearless orcs, daemons or chaos marines in a tournament.

The thing about RP's is their extreme versatility. Going against a mechanized list? Living Lightning will do just fine. Hordes? Murderous Hurricane will dwindle a 30-ork boy mob to about half strength by the time they reach you and bolt pistols + counter-attack will finish off the rest. Nidzilla, necrons, tau? Jaws. 'Nuff said. Mechdar, mechanized Tau or deep-striking armies? Tempest's wrath will wreak havoc. Psychic heavy army? Forget about it. Not with 4 RP's in the vicinity. One RP may not do much, but when you have 3-4 in your army, you could do a lot of damage.

That's why I think the future of space wolf tournament armies belong to RP-spammed lists. TWC's are good, but they're more like TH/SS lists. They're scary but one dimensional. When was the last time an assault terminator heavy list won any tournies? They're just not balanced enough. I know because I play them all the time. The last time I used 20 assault termies against a balanced guards list, I was soundly thrashed.

[Frank Fugger]

This list is based on Stelek's "Best Of" Space Wolves only with some superfluous crap thrown in, crap that, generally speaking, it doesn't need. I don't think the BroCap or the Canoness are necessarily superfluous though, because they're both cheap and provide the list with a few little bonuses it might not otherwise have.


Ok, Frank, hope you don't mind if I be as brutally honest about this alternative list as you were to mine.

This list will get trashed literally by any good guard player. 5+ cover saves, stubborn and a psychic hood don't mean crap to 5-6 battle cannon or executioner shots.

What are the Battlecannons shooting at? The Huntards/ Long Fangs sitting in trees with a 4+ cover save (which becomes 3+ for the Huntards if I send them to ground), the Wolves that get rerolls on their Ld8 Morale checks, or the Thunderwolves that take a single wound unless it's an S10 hit and are getting a 4+ cover save from the Wolves in front of them?


You've only got 2 scoring units (but have enough points for a 3rd or even 4th one).

Min-maxing is the name of the game with Beasts & Cav lists.

The two scoring units will be enough. Want to shoot at them? You do that. Meanwhile, back at the Bat Cave, here's Wolves with 45 S4 attacks a pop at I5 that are going to eat your infantry and Shake the bejeezus out of your rear AV10 vehicles, Long Fangs that are going to cut down your mans, and TWC units that are going to smash anything I point them at.


Unfortunately, with the lack of transports, they're not going anywhere fast. That's ok with C&C or KP missions but you'd be at a heavy disadvantage in Seize Ground.

No I'm not. I have 5 units that can assault (note: not "move", like Bikes, but ASSAULT) between 19-24", 6 if you count Canis seperately (which would be worth doing because he's a beast on his own), any one of which is capable of routing most scoring units you'd care to name with or without vehicles.


Fenrisian wolves are a distraction at best but will die as quickly as orks to rapid fire.

Unlike Orks, they're not the only thing in the list.


Apart from 3 ML & 1 LL, you have no ranged AT.

But loads of S5 Rending attacks and 3 S10 Thunder Hammers. I don't need it.


The most dangerous is Canis and your TWC that's for sure, but they won't stand up to massed fire.

S4 needs a 5 to wound them. S3 needs a 6. S6 needs a 3. The Wolves provide 4+ cover saves against anything that has to fire directly. They'll be fine.


They not as tough as ork nobz nor as survivable as TH/SS assault termies.

Not as difficult to kill as Nobz but they're far more capable of doing a number on you because of all the Rending attacks they get. Canis especially; if you want cheese, Canis provides it in spades. Look at the size of the base he comes with and have a flick through his special rules; base contact with 12 Orks, eh? Not anymore, because now they're dead.


They're not better than 5 rhinos and 3 squads. They're different that's for sure, but this build won't go far in tourneys. You're lacking focus. The focus should be on your TWC's. Forget the cannoness and GKBC. If you want psychic defense, drop the RP as well and get Njal,

Njal needs to be within 24" of stuff to negate it on a 3+. Do I want to run 270pts of T4 ID-able model across the board, knowing he'll be out of touch with my Cavalry the first time they charge, or waste 35pts on a Rhino that will likewise be out of touch? Or do I want an unlimited range Hood whose owner can sit with another squad and use his Relic Blade to make people think twice about charging them?


attache a squad of GH's to him and put them in a rhino. That's a 24" radius measured from the hull of the transport that nullifies psychic powers on a 3+. Put every other troop choice in rhinos as well. With your TWC's charging towards the enemies, they'll momentarily forget about your rhinos.

All of these things cost points. Every point I spend on something that isn't a Thunderwolf, a Fenrisian Wolf, or a support unit is a point I'm not focusing. I see what you mean about focusing on the TWC and Wolves, but I don't see how dropping points on vehicles I don't need and an expensive-ass psyker is supposed to achieve that.

Njal is a monster, don't get me wrong, I love him to death, but he doesn't fit in a Beasts & Cav list and cannot be made to. That said, you need Psyker defences, otherwise you're quite likely to get Doomed and Fortuned away. The cheapest, nastiest psyker defence option is the BroCap because he comes with The Shrouding, Ld10 (meaning my squads are harder to break with shooting), and a free Relic Blade (which is a disnicentive to assault whatever unit he's standing with).

The Canoness is a walking Book; her only role is to make the Long Fangs Stubborn Ld10 so anything that does charge them is going to have to wipe them out or be stuck there for a while. You could give her a Jump Pack and Mantle so she can run around and keep the Beasts & Cav at Ld10, but she suffers from the same problem as Njal in that she'll probably lose touch with everything the first time it charges.


EDIT: Drop whatever you need to to make sure each of those squads has a Stregth 10 Thunder Hammer. Powerfists suck.