Best and worst of the SM chapters

[fantasypisces]

Hey everyone, I tried doing a search, but after getting to page 60 I gave up for a new thread.

Based upon everyone's opinion, I was curious what the ranks for strongest to weakest SM chapters are under 5th edition?

The chapters are (naturally)

1) Codex Astartes
2) Space Wolves
3) Black Templars
4) Dark Angels
5) Blood Angels

Note, that is not my ranking! I just thought this might be an interesting thread for discussion on strengths and weaknesses of all of them, and opinions why.

In my opinion, coming back from a 1.5 year break, I would do it along the lines of:

1) Space Wolves -- just everything seems to go right for them, with strong characters and units. Some things are naturally a bit pricey, but many are a bargain. Plus there are some unique units that can really add character to an army.

2) Codex Astartes -- they have extreme versatility. Although under new 5th edition rules some things lost usefulness, ala my assault marines have it rough now, and outside of Vulkan lists landspeeders don't get used much anymore, etc.

3) Black Templars -- vows with assault marines that have furious charge is just yummy, which just tips the scales over...

4) Dark Angels -- I just don't see much of anything special about them.

5) Blood Angels -- Not sure why, people I know that play them just constantly say they arn't that good anymore. Their reasoning being that the rules just didn't gel with 5th edition that well, not that the units are bad, they just don't fit.

So anyway, I want to hear everyone's opinion!

[Draake]

I played against Space Wolves last night (Tau + my codex marines VS BA +SW), and I was surprised at all the er....rules for SWs.

A squad with 2 missile launchers and 2 heavy bolters could split their fire if they chose (so the ML targeted my armour, the HB were aimed at the Tau), their scout squads can take melta guns, plus some other things which escape me right now. I asked the guy "so what is the disadvantage of playing SW? They seem to be able to do everything I can but better." He replied "unit a bit more expensive, pricey HQs. So I just take the standard ones (I think they were Rune Priests or something) which are awesome." We won, but I was still taken aback by the big advantages that SW have with little drawbacks.

As for your list, I agree with your placement of SW > Codex > Templars, but DA and BA - I don't really know. Deathwing is a pain in the backside (Terminators camping objectives is not an easy problem to solve when you have more Terminators right in your face), but when I played them I was an incredible noob. I am confident I could beat them now with my codex marines.

[fantasypisces]

Yeah one of my mates is starting Space Wolves, we were having some good laughs going through the codex. Was a bunch of "whoa, that squad can take that? They can do that? Those are awesome units!" I didn't really want to look at my 'nilla marines book after that.

Cheers

[Draake]

Yeah I was pretty cheesed off to say the least. And I wasn't laughing too much :( They need some more drawbacks to balance them.

[Lani Guy]

Why is this suprising? GW always overpowers the new Codex they do, just wait for 'Nids... everyone is gonna play them due to new overpowering rules. Stuffs stupid :(

[4theEmperor!]

I disagree that the Blood Angels codex is weak. They are a bit pricey, but then every unit includes the cost of one Death Company marine which is a super-psycho killer. ( Furious charge, fearless, two attacks, rending, Feel No Pain.)
The Assault Marines are troops, their Veteran Assault Marines have more options than Vanguard Vets (as near as I can tell). They had combat squads before codex marines did.

BA drawback include squad size of 5 or 10, nothing in between. Transports cost more. Chaplains and Librarians only have leadership 9, but they get WS5 BS5 I5 and A3. Blood Angels captains are the same as all 4th Ed captains except they all have Iron Haloes.

I played in and won a tournament over the weekend with a jump-pack Blood Angels army. I also had a 5-man tac squad in a rhino, 2 attack bikes, a dread in pod, and a Baal Pred. My opponents were surprised over and over at their mobility.

Dark Angels can do Deathwing and Ravenwing, and both of those are deadly armies if played well.

Black Templars can have Preferred Enemy for any enemy they want, plus they can make use of really big squad size.

Codex Marines are awesome all-arounders.

Space Wolves have a ton of great rules and people are really just experiencing them and getting used to them.

I think Codex Marines have the strongest Codex.
Next I say Space Wolves.
Then BA, BT, and DA in that order.

[Red Archer]

I disagree strongly that landspeeders in fifth edition are rarely used (even outside of Vulkan lists). I have seen many more of them than in fourth edition, and I myself, for one, use them very extensively. Part of this is due to fluff, but to be honest my current list idea (I'll see how it fares this weekend) has more than half the army's points in landspeeders (9 typhoons at 1,500 points).

Anyhow, back on topic. I'll make it short and not elaborate much:
1) Codex Chapters: they can do everything, and they are the only ones (apart from Ravenwing) who can field bike armies, which are -in my opinion- definitely one of the most competitive Space Marine army builds.
2) Space Wolves: they got the newest codex with lots of goodies.
3) Black Templar and Blood Angels: they are so old that they now have some rules that can really make them strong! Drop pods can easily be countered with reserving everything, thanks to 5th edition drop pod assault - Blood Angels don't have that and can make very mean drop podding armies. Black Templar smoke launchers downgrade penetrating hits to glancing which usually means you suffer no serious harm. Etc... Lots of hidden goodies, you just have to be a little creative and make use those codexes in a different way.
4) Dark Angels: Deathwing is still pretty tough, but Ravenwing is heavily-overpriced. Used in combination they can still be very competitive, though.

I think Marine armies of any codex are pretty good still. We can't complain, really.

[realitycheque]

They had combat squads before codex marines did.
Combat squads were in 2nd ed, are you seriously telling me they didn't exist in 3rd or 4th? (I didn't play for about 8 years)

[Frank Fugger]

I'd go:

1) Codex - Tons of options, very, very few units that don't really "work", generally well-rounded book.

2) Space Wolves - Due to Codex creep and the fact they're new. Less options than the Codex Chapters, less flexibility, missing a few of the Codex's advantages (Combat Tactics, BIKES, long-range shooty on tap) but bring a fair few of their own to the table (above-average CC, Beasts & Cavalry).

3) Dark Angels - Should probably be second because Ravenwing are great, just not as great as vanilla Bikers. Deathwing is fun if not world- beating, and aside from that they're basically just vanilla Marines with a few quirks. Plasma-related quirks.

4) Templars - When they pass a Morale check, they run at you. The entire army can be given Preferred Enemy and they're cheap. Basically MEQ Orks, which is fun if nothing else. Very much a "knack" army, though; if you can't get the knack for using them you're going to fail every time.

5) Blood Angels - Scoring Jump Infantry seems great at first and the Death Company are a menace, but the whole thing just feels a bit too clunky to me. The overpriced units don't "fit" very well (290pts for a fecking Assault Squad?...), and as a result you find yourself having to skimp on stuff just to make your army work like it's supposed to, which is a shame because they have some pretty cool rules and options. Overcharged Engines and Baal Predators, f'rinstance.

[The_Outsider]

Combat squads were in 2nd ed, are you seriously telling me they didn't exist in 3rd or 4th? (I didn't play for about 8 years)

Combat squads were decidedly missing from the 3rd and 4th edition versions of the SM codex.

As for best chapter/codex, this still is the vanilla codex for meany reasons which are not vcery obvious and are often thought redundant.

Comparing to the SW, devastators are better than long fangs because they can have more members (which means return fire takes long to adversly affect the units ability ot deal damage).

The fact that tactical squads can take heavy weapons is a fairly important issue (mostly when combined with combat squads) grey hunters maybe cheaper (relatively) but they are limited to plasma/melta rush or being a slow assault squad.

It is the little things that do it for me that make vanilla SM a better codex in an overall sense than SW.

SW only have a handfull of playstyles that suit their list, SM can do anything and work which gives infinitely more tactical and strategic options.

[Frank Fugger]

Comparing to the SW, devastators are better than long fangs because they can have more members (which means return fire takes long to adversly affect the units ability ot deal damage).

There are a lot of reasons that the vanilla Codex is "better" than the SW one. Devastator Squads are not one of those reasons.

Long Fangs will be losing firepower with each casualty they take, but being able to cram 5 Missile Launchers that can split fire into a single Heavy Support slot for the low low price of 140pts is absolutely brilliant.

Compare and contrast the Devastators. If you want to be able to split the Devastator's fire you have to Combat Squad them, which means taking 10 models, and that costs 230pts with 4 Missile Launchers. They also get a Signum, but that's not a huge advantage. There's also the fact that Devastators are base Ld8, whereas Long Fangs are base Ld9, to consider; means if the Sergeant dies the LFs are less likely to run away.


The fact that tactical squads can take heavy weapons is a fairly important issue (mostly when combined with combat squads) grey hunters maybe cheaper (relatively) but they are limited to plasma/melta rush or being a slow assault squad.

It is the little things that do it for me that make vanilla SM a better codex in an overall sense than SW.

SW only have a handfull of playstyles that suit their list, SM can do anything and work which gives infinitely more tactical and strategic options.


/sign everything else :)

[Hugues de Payens]

Bit of a newb, but looking through both codices, it's hard to say that SW are better than SM with no draw backs:

- codex astartes can use combat squads and combat tactics, both of which open up the force to flexible commanding
- SW can be very expensive to re-create some standard SM builds (assault termies with TH & SS for example)
- SW scouts are elites, so are restricted in that way
- SW bikers, JP assault & reg assault troops are all WS/BS 3 with headstrong.
- SW character builds are so detailed and confusing, harder to find good effective builds.

+ all the other points already made - definitely not an overpowered codex IMHO

Darn good fun though, and great for modelling/painting - shed loads of axes and fur, it's like LA in the 70's :-)

[kakashi]

I'd say that the list goes somehwat like this

1 - Vanilla marines
2 - Space wolfs
3 - Dark Angels
4 - Black templars
5 - Blood Angels


As everyone said Vanilla marines have more options and can be built to any style. space puppies are limited to a mid range/assault style. long range firefights kill space puppies fast

@Frank - I like Long fnags but i'll take a 10 man dev squad over them any day, If they don't suit you thats fine but lots of other people probably do like them. I'm one of them and find my devs usualyl buy back their points either through killing enought high point models/vehicles or controlling the numbers my other squads face enought for them to handle and win.

Dark angels, I really like these guys and their death wing/ raven wing or combo armies are still able to beat a lot of other armies. Mine remain ready to take to the table and win again

Black templars - a good army but jsut, din't fit right for me. probably not suit my playstyle but i havne't found much success with them.

blod angels - they jsu don't mesh as well with the rules as the marines witha codex. possibly due to blood angles being rush i think