Usually I hear (or read) cheese cried at units thought to be unfairly priced for their "power level". This never bothered me as it seems to do to a lot of people. I was wondering about that when I realized what motivates a person to use the loathed "c" word. Being a Necron player, usually I see this word smacked right across my 3 story, 14 armour all-round, bigger than a barn, monolith. "It does the porty thingie, and the flux thingy, and my multi-melta sucks against it, and it can move and fire ordinance, and it doesn't wreck, and it costs less than a Land Raider!" "It's CHEESE!" Now, as I see it, most cheese is cried out of envy. Slung towards a model that another has; this epithet is spat at conviencies that their army lacks, or is bad at, and the other is good at. When the random BA player sees a monolith he thinks of it as a really cheap LR and gets jealous. But never does he, before crying cheese, stop to think that I consider his Death Company to be REALLY fast Flayed ones with pistols. From my point of view, I could consider this cheese. If a SM player wants a cheap transport with some good firpower, the razorback can't be beat.(mobility being something the SM can specialize in) But if they want a moving fortress with lots of staying power and guns to match, well they'll have to pay a little more.(Relentlessness being The Necrons Main Specialty.)

S.M.'s can field a las cannon for x points in EVERY tac squad. (plus tanks, Dev squads, etc.) Necrons can field (up to) 9 lascannon equivalent weapons for x*4.3333333333333~ points. A lascannon is far cheaper when compared to a H.gauss cannon, than a Monolith is when compared to a Landraider. on the flip side, when you compare usefulness to the parent army, a Lascannon is by far more important to a S.M. army, than a H.gauss cannon is to a necron Army. While the same can be said with the Monolith, vs the Land Raider, and their parent armies.

So I guess that a cry of cheese means your opponent (or whoever) only fails to grasp the concept of strengths and weaknesses, and that points are not always directly comparable between armies.

If thay can't grasp this concept, I'm eager to play them; Tactics are much trickier than mere force composition.

And if they cry cheese when I win, I walk away with a smile because I know I have what they want.

My Broadsides want to eat your monolith.

Originally posted by Warped314@Sep 19 2004, 06:44
My Broadsides want to eat your monolith.
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that was an intelligent and well thought-out reply. thank you.

probably because people think that having a squad of 3 twinlinked str10 ap1 weapons that can shoot at differant targets or the same target for a total of 225 points for the squad is "cheese"

I agree with lordhat, even though the most people i see agreeing with his theory are infact necron players.
But what i think is unless games workshop realease something really stupidly brilliant at a low price (i don't know about necrons, but non seem to have appeared so far in other armies) no one has any right to call anything cheese, unless of course they are really bad losers, in which case they should stick to tradiontional methods and just sweep everything of the table (i know i do)

and thats what i think..

Originally posted by LordHat@Sep 19 2004, 13:38
that was an intelligent and well thought-out reply. thank you.
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http://www.arbytech.com/ar/images/owned1.jpg

:lol: :lol:

Originally posted by LordHat@Sep 19 2004, 13:38
that was an intelligent and well thought-out reply. thank you.
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I was being cynical. You're trying to over rationalize something and to me it looks ridiculous.

Originally posted by Warped314@Sep 19 2004, 14:01
I was being cynical. You're trying to over rationalize something and to me it looks ridiculous.
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Well then have a good laugh, and keep your non-productive comments off of LO's bandwidth.

Uh, no. You trying to start a flamewar or something?

I'm gonna buy a Monolith, paint it off white and cut little holes all in it.

Mmmmm Mmmm. Cheesy.

My only contention here is that the 'Lith is a little bit underpriced for what it does. No one can really deny that it's about 50-100 points too cheap for all of the abilities that it confers.

The Nightbringer, for instance, is NOT cheesy. Yes, he's powerful as hell, but he's also 360 points for that one model and if he's not in HtH combat with something, then he's sort of a 360 point bullseye.

in poland we've got a different, more competitive attitude towards 40k (for example we don't have comp scores on tournaments) so i know word 'cheese' only from western forums and it's pretty alien to me. somebody's using a monolith? very well, i'd be suprised if he/she didn't as monolith is very useful in necron army. the only thing that it means to me is that the game will be more challenging, hence more interesting. my shooty orks generally suck vs necrons and that's why i love fighting them b/c it's very amusing to beat a problematic enemy and victory tastes much better than after beating some wankers.
a question to all complaining about cheesy monolith (or anything else): you don't want your opponents to take 'cheesy' units, so you want them to go for weaker ones. well, you can imagine your opponent creating a roster for the game and thinking "oh, i'm playing vs X, so i can't take a strong army, cause i'll beat him up too bad". i find that extremely insulting...

Originally posted by H0urg1ass@Sep 20 2004, 00:02
My only contention here is that the 'Lith is a little bit underpriced for what it does. No one can really deny that it's about 50-100 points too cheap for all of the abilities that it confers.
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you don't field an army consiting entirely of monoliths, do you? perhaps a 'lith would be underpriced in a versatile SM army, but it's perfectly ok in a difficult to play (no wargear for anything but lord, one troops choice, etc) necron force.

I understand and agree with all that is said. I know that all armies have weaknesses and strengths, etc.

HOWEVER!!.......

I have seen one army that in my opinion has the best of everything, and this I think is as you's say "cheesy".

This army is Eldar. Now before you all go off at me just here me out. you can call me a whinging $%&# later.

Anyway they are supposed to be a shooty army. Thats okay they have (or used to have ? what new rules will bring out) warwalkers, fire prism tanks, dark reapers, fire platforms that can move and shoot either in batteries or one in each unit, hell even their transports sported about 2 or 3 heavy weapons. But they also have a few extremly powerful close combat units, ie banshees(I5, powerweapons), striking scorpions (3+ save S4), swooping hawks (flying, Exarch with sustained assault), warp-spiders. But I here you say most of these have T3, however I will tell you they have stuff that can have T5 wraith dudes, and the infamous T8 wraithlord. Plus they can have masses of cheap troops so T3 for them really isn't a problem...(Tyranids taugh me this ;) ) Also they have the seer counsel. Sure they have T3/4 but they get a 4+ re-rollable invunerable save. (not to mention mind-war all the characters / vet sargents / heavyweapon dudes).

Anyway the point I am making here is that with eldar you can have your cake AND eat it, there is weaknesses to each unit (there always will) however there are things in the army that can make up for the armies weakness, unlike most armies Tyranids-not much shooting, armour penetrating shooting, Space Marines- all round good,but not great in combat rely more on heavy weapons expensive troops, Demon Hunters- expensive-good troops + bad shield troops, but not much shooting at all, etc...etc.

I mean all what an eldar player has to is sit back shoot t the enemy which he/ she can do with all the shooty stuff he/ she has. get the enemy to charge and then counter charge with you assault units that were hiding behind the walls or guardians.

A friend of mine used to play Eldar but gave them up as it was too easy for him to beat every one. He totally agrees with me and has collected space marines looking for more of a challenge.

So to me the only thing in Warhammer 40k that is "cheesy" is......

ELDAR

My noob detector is going off the charts!

You have got to be kidding me? why are eldar cheesy? or right..they ARENT! eldar are a finesse army. everything has to be in the right place at the right time, or they crumble, and QUITE easily i might add. counter these units with units that render each squads specialty useless.

i.e banshees SUCK HORRIBLY agaisnt large squads of mass troops. and they are VERY fragile vs. shooting. Armor 4, with a toughness of 3. so point some heavy flamers, heavy bolters their way and watch them fall.

wraithlords disadvantage is the lack of an invulnerbale save. oh hey mr. dev squad with 4 las cannons. hehe wat wraithlord? all i see is a pile of wraithbone.

the seer council is only available to CraftWorld Ulthwe army so its not every eldar army. plus, they cant make many many saves vs shooting or hth. hit em with a squad of mass troops (cultits, hormaguants, slugga boyz) and they dont ahve ANY power weaposn. so any squads with high armor save will tear them apart. terminators with thunder ahmmers/powerfist DESTROY my seer council. i fail my saves, and there goes 3 120 point models.

if u are a good player, then yu can easily do this...it appears, redman, that your arent.

lol oh damnnnnnn, lota action on this one. Ive never played against an eldar army, and to tell you the truth, even though im still a newbie, its the one army i simply know Abesolutley NOTHING about. other than i like the look of some of the models. But when i was learning how to play(this was like 3 years ago, and i only played for like 2 months and then quit until 4th ED came out) i always thought the SMs were the cheesiest, i mean, they have GREAT stats, GREAT saves, and every super nice special rule and its mom to throw in the mix, my IG got slaughtered everydamn time while me and my friend were learning. and i was even better than he was, (which doesnt say much, neither of us knew wt.f we were doing) its just that they are so damn durable and have the nicest rules and crap that i couldnt touch them. Now that im learning how to play and getting back into it, i see that they are more pricey than your average guy, and they have SOME drawbacks, but secretly i still harbor a little bad blood and feel they are slightly stacked. i mean c'mon, why else would 60% of the warhammer players play them if they werent the a little on the strong side. i can remember what the guy said when we asked him what the best army was(we didnt know anything about the game, so ofcoarse we're going to ask) and he was like 'well i dont know much about it, but i think they are all sapposed to be balanced'' and then his co-worker chimed in and was like ''Space marines'' ''i thought they were all even'' ''nope, your army is considered good if you can beat them'' haha. now nothing against SM players, i know the game in general takes skill and strategy to win, and maybe this guy was slightly joking but, if you MUST blanket an army with the ''cheese'' title(which you shouldnt anyway, if its legal, its legal, and you gotta learn to beat it). my money would be on SMs :P

O.k lets not say that eldar are cheesy but have BY FAR the most POTENTIAL to be cheesy dont belive me check out this totally legal 1000pt Ulthe (sp) list.
Avatar
seer council with 2 farseers 3 warlocks 2 singing spears and 3 witchblades
2 6 man guardian squad
3 warwalkers with starcannons
1 wraithlord with bright lance

Now salamander is being hypocritical because in that topic he stated:
the most cheesylist i ahve EVER seen. and i ahve seen a really cheesy list. i would ahve faced this guy. i would have refused to play him
But in this topic:
why are eldar cheesy? or right..they ARENT!

Sorry but I thought that I might bring this to Red mans attention.

The Topic (http://forum.librarium-online.com/index.php?showtopic=16862)
Btw something I would like to do is make a bunch of Eldar all with Chukky cheese hats made out of GS. :D

What he meant was that Eldar aren't cheesy IN GENERAL. They CAN be cheesy, as they were in that list. If this wasn't obvious to you, then you are a ignoramus -- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say that you were using semantics to construct a feeble argument against Salamander.

Originally posted by Red Man@Sep 20 2004, 01:37
warwalkers

open topped, BS 3. scary.

fire prism tanks

one shot, BS 3. scary.

dark reapers

heavy, can't be screened. scary.

fire platforms that can move and shoot either in batteries or one in each unit

they can't because they're Heavy. and can be targeted, each glancing hit kills them. cary.

hell even their transports sported about 2 or 3 heavy weapons

2 weapons @ 145 pts (serpent) or 3 @ 175 pts (falcon). all with BS 3. scary.

banshees(I5, powerweapons)

yeah... could you please tell me how are you going to get them into HtH? definitely not on foot cause they'll be shot to pieces. transport? sure, they can't assault after disembarking, and are not screened by the serpent/falcon. good luck.

striking scorpions (3+ save S4)

the same as with banshees, plus, would you call a marine extremely good HtH fighter? because are pretty much the same as marines (higher initiative and more attacks but T3)

swooping hawks (flying, Exarch with sustained assault), warp-spiders

hahahahahaha, you're kidding me, right? S3, one attack no power weapons for squad members, all that for about 150 points. their exarch can do some mayhem sometime but definitely not big enough to call them "extremly powerful close combat unit"

T5 wraith dudes

@ 35 points per one. and wraithguards are so extremely hard to use that you can't call cheesy anyone who's excelling at using them.

and the infamous T8 wraithlord

i was never really scared of him. either kill it or avoid it, simple.

Also they have the seer counsel. Sure they have T3/4 but they get a 4+ re-rollable invunerable save. (not to mention mind-war all the characters / vet sargents / heavyweapon dudes).

just throw anything at them, making them fighting in HtH for the whole game. 300+ pts unit out of game.

edit: take a look at our league results (http://www.bitewniaki.gildia.pl/liga_w40k/2003_2004/rankingwh40k). you've got two eldar players in the top ten, both being extremely good players, next eldars are placed 29th, 45th, 56th. if you're correct and eldar are so easy to win they should be higher, don't you think? so where's the cheese?

That's exactly my point. All these things that the eldar can do, are called cheese because:

A) The other armies can't do it at all.

B) They can, but at much higher cost.

or C) They can at a relative cost, but not quite as well, or as predictably.

I never knew what cheese was before i started playing eldar, but now i do, i'll tell you they are not. admitadly dark reaper and wraithlords kick ass, but there points make up for it.

IF they win fantasicly with minor casualties, its because the eldar player targeted all the right thing, and has all his squad in the same place at the same time, not because of the rules.

Originally posted by Squirrel@Sep 19 2004, 23:37
What he meant was that Eldar aren't cheesy IN GENERAL. They CAN be cheesy, as they were in that list. If this wasn't obvious to you, then you are a ignoramus -- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say that you were using semantics to construct a feeble argument against Salamander.
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Well thats for sticking up me 8)

And yes even tho that quote from me is TERIBLY spelled wrong. it should read:

That is the cheesiest list i have ever seen, and i have seen really bad lists. I would ahve refused to play him.

that quote was in a thread in the eldar board, in responce to the list that bobby just posted. Yes this is un-characterful. but not cheesy. eldar armies are the easist id say to make uncharacterful, but dont mix this up with cheese. cheese in my definition is somethat that is nigh impossible to beat. these are VERY VERY few in the game. the only thing that is in my eyes beardy is the World Eaters DP. It certainly is not un-characterful, but almost impossible to take down. im not complainaing. im stating a fact based on my experiences with him. with about 13 attacks ont he charge at ini7, str7 and toughness 6(or 7) and 4 wounds. my god. and from shooting he has a 2+/4+/4+. psychic powers dont work against him (mind war) and throwing a cheap unit at him doesnt work cuz he has SOO many attacks.

Anyway they are supposed to be a shooty army

Uhhhh, how do you get that one? Where does it say *anywhere* (other than on you post) that Eldar are meant to be shooty? Eldar have more CC stuff than loads of armies; Necrons, Tau ( ;) ), Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Inquistion. And anyway, Its kind of hard not to have loads of shooting in 40k, name one army which has more types of close-combat weapons than guns? I admit that you don't need as many varieties of CC weapons as guns because you don't need AP values or range values, however the majority of troops in the game (Including some CC ones) carry a gun.

Salamander, the daemon prince you described can't be made, even ignoring the wargear point limit. Either you're exaggerating greatly, or you've been playing against a shameless cheater.

thank you and good night

Originally posted by H0urg1ass@Sep 19 2004, 18:02
I'm gonna buy a Monolith, paint it off white and cut little holes all in it.

Mmmmm Mmmm.Â* Cheesy.

My only contention here is that the 'Lith is a little bit underpriced for what it does.Â* No one can really deny that it's about 50-100 points too cheap for all of the abilities that it confers.

The Nightbringer, for instance, is NOT cheesy.Â* Yes, he's powerful as hell, but he's also 360 points for that one model and if he's not in HtH combat with something, then he's sort of a 360 point bullseye.
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Paint it yellow. I really like american over swiss lol...

And yes my scout squad w/ 9 snipers disposes of the nightbringer quite easily :D

Originally posted by Red Man@Sep 19 2004, 18:37
So to me the only thing in Warhammer 40k that is "cheesy" is......
ELDAR
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I agree my friend also has an Eldar army and out of all the games he has played(1 year of 40k) he has only lost 1 game to a Chaos player.

This is creepy I also have a frind with Eldar and he quit because it was too easy for him to win and he got Space Marines after also.

dziewczynka z flamethrowerem
You are forgeting all the good things and only mentioning the bad things about elder
EXAMPLE: Warwalkers: bs 3 so 2 starcannons 6 ap 2 shots
Striking Scorpians: t3 s4 SM so biting blade chainswords
Farseers, Warlocks: t3 so mind war, wounds on 2 plus no save, how cheap are warlocks
Falcon: Crhystal targetting matrix is amazing do you even know what it does


I could go on and on but ill stop there.

:o

dziewczynka z flamethrowerem
You are forgeting all the good things and only mentioning the bad things about elder
this should be good...

EXAMPLE: Warwalkers: bs 3 so 2 starcannons 6 ap 2 shots (N)
not only are they open topped and bs3, but they are also armor 10 all around. can u say a 300 point bullet magnet that dies to just about every ranged weapon in the game?

Striking Scorpians: t3 s4 SM so biting blade chainswords (N)
first off, learnt he army u are debating against before u actually TRY to talk agaisnt it. they all dont ahve biting blades. onyl the exarch does. and he has only 3 attacks. half will wound (1-2 wounds) and he gets to roll an extra dice that has a 50/50 chance to wound extra. WHOOPTI FREAKIN DOO

Farseers, Warlocks: t3 so mind war, wounds on 2 plus no save, how cheap are warlocks (N)

again learn the army. farseers are toughness 4. and mind war is ok. only hits one model, not that many models in a unit.

they dont wound on a 2+ with no save. FIRST u have to buy a witchblade, (whihc is 15 points, same as a power weapon which IGNORES armor saves) and it onyl wounds on a 2+ and allows armor saves.

warlocks are 11 points with a mandatory warlock power, so the minimum of 10 and with a witchblade/shuriken pistol your looking at about 40 points. plus MOSt eldar warlocks come with conceal whcih is double embolden (the cheapest power) so your looking at about a 50-55 point model. healso counts as a psycher so get torn apart by deamonhunters and witch hunters.. how much is a vet sarg with a power weapon and pistol?

Falcon: Crhystal targetting matrix is amazing do you even know what it does (N)

well im sure he does since HE PLAYS eldar. u dont seem to know what half the eldar army can do and u claim it is cheesey. this just about takes away any credibilty in your statements. and yes the crystal targetting matrix is good. it is also very expensive. and i think u are asking if he knows what it does because u dont.

I could go on and on but ill stop there.
well usually this means the person has run out of ideas and is bluffing he can go on. or are u serious and shall i procede to dispprove everything u say after this post? :shifty:

Sorry, but I dont have eldar and as I said my friend quit eldar so the last time I played his Eldar was like a month ago.

I also can go on. Wraithlord, Wraith Cannons, Exarch Powers, Avatar for his points.

I do know what Chrystal Targeting Matrix does but I cant say it because of the board rules.(heres a clue so you dont think I am lying: it has to do with moving)


YOU should maybe learn the army (***** 300 points for a walker, try 100.......)

I meant Striking Scorpians with chainswrds and the Exarch with Biting Blade, and oh yea I forgot ot mention Mandiblaster........ and are they good for there points?

Tell me a Wraithlord is not good for his points? (dont even mention his save but if he had a better one imagin how good he will be.

Dont forget all there elites.....

Originally posted by Nebulas@Sep 20 2004, 12:42
Uhhhh, how do you get that one? Where does it say *anywhere* (other than on you post) that Eldar are meant to be shooty?
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Read the side of the codex(not to be rude).

Wraithlords are Heavy, my friend. Eldar are not cheesy because they pay through the jugular for everything they have. Do you realize how obscenely expensive everything in the Eldar codex is? Not to mention the current state of the Shuriken catapult...oh, JOY! Now we don't have any advantages for our basic troopers with guns except that we can throw our paper thin crappy guys into assault and get them killed there instead of falling to BOLTER FIRE WITHOUT A GOD DAMN SAVE. Eldar are balanced for their points. Avatars are nothing special for what we pay for them -- I'll admit that Wraithlords are really bloody good for their price, but honestly, so are any BA infantry, or Obliterators -- every army has a steal, some more obscene than others, the WORST and only one worthy of the word cheese is Monolith -- however, I don't mind facing off against one -- it's when they start taking 2 or more that I start getting irritated.

I've seen a worldeater army destroy a eldar army so easily it wasn't even funny. As has been said the eldar have the right guys for each job, but if the units down't get too the right place at the right time, they are toast.

Worldeaters could seem cheasy, even I as a daemonhunter have said "Crap you guys can negate my force weapon, WHAT? I just wasted a hundred points to do NOTHING against that DP" But I learned new stratagy. (BTW, that player thinks my sacred insence is chessy)

Necrons I've never played against...I'd like to...any in the LI area?

Exactly as lord said though, chessy is jelousy of what your opponent has. Anyone can construct an unbeatable army, until someone else learns how to beat it. it's the cycle of warhammer. That's why i like balanced forces. Balanced forces can flex their stratagy.

I still say Eldar are vastly unfair, (okay you've made your points they're not cheesy just unfair)

How do Tyranids get bolters. All of you's are looking at how SM beat them doen't it occur to you that not every player play SM.... (they aren't THAT popular ;) )

Still the BS 3 thing is solved due to that phychic power that gives them a re-roll.

Mind war was the most F%$#ed thing in hte whole army. I mean against SM okay you do have a phychic hood and an iron halo but what do we Tyranids have in the ways of Phychic defense......ZIP......But wait we do have a shadow in hte Warp. But again this does.......ZIP!

I have swamped the seer council (with 3 farseers) with hormogaunts but they have those 2+ wound thingys that kill almost all of them in one turn. As for Thunder hammers, etc, usually by the time my big gribbilies should be in combat they are either shot down or had their synapse node pounded to mush, by unseen phychic forces.

Think about the mechanics of the game. Warwalkers hide behind terrain and then move to be in view of one target. GUESS WHAT they shoot that target (the one thing that can shoot them back) into nothingness.

Also they don't have to pay through the nose for everything, they can get tons of cheap guardian-dudes.

Hmmmmm all of you's say "just avoid the WraithLord"

HEY BUDDY....I't harder than it seems when it's totting a big gun, either bright lance or $%&#@ starcannons-hello doens't 3 S6 AP2 shots seem a bit too good.

I checked the heavy platform rules with my mate, last time I played him (a long time ago) and it said the platforms being anti-grav can move and shoot.

Anway it seems to me that Eldar have no real focus. As mentioned before the Eldar have really good combat units, and they are thought to be just a shooting army. As I said before with Eldar you can have your cake AND eat it.


P.S.

(I am not a crap player, I'll take you on anyday. Fantasy or 40K)

Originally posted by Red Man@Sep 22 2004, 00:13
Mind war was the most F%$#ed thing in hte whole army. I mean against SM okay you do have a phychic hood and an iron halo but what do we Tyranids have in the ways of Phychic defense......ZIP......But wait we do have a shadow in hte Warp. But again this does.......ZIP!
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Umm . . . ever heard of Psychic Scream?

thank you and good night

ever heard of Psychic Scream
What does that power do anyway? Isn't it an offensive power? If so then what does it do against mindwar?

As for Squirrel:
I said;
O.k lets not say that eldar are cheesy but have BY FAR the most POTENTIAL to be cheesy
Then he said;
What he meant was that Eldar aren't cheesy IN GENERAL. They CAN be cheesy,
:huh: Isnt that what I just said? You ignoramus

As I said before with Eldar you can have your cake AND eat it.

Not really, seeing as each unit (well almost!) in the Eldar is optimised for a specific role, and if they're not fighting where they excel, they're usually not doing much else. With Space Marines you can take your cake and eat it, seeing as each unit is fairly good at most combat roles.