This was posted on Warseer by the rightly venerable Brimstone so all Kudos goes to him. :yes:

HQ

Grandmaster – Azarael
- Wargear – Same as previous but with some amendments.
Belial – Master of the Deathwing
Sammael – Master of the Ravenwing
- Wargear Jetbike (armed with TL-Storm Bolters & under slung Plasma Cannon) and other stuff
- May switch to his Land Speeder in which case he now counts as a vehicle and wargear Shield of night now provides AV14 front and sides.
- If Sammael is included in a army one attack squadron may be upgraded to a Ravenwing command squad (Ravenwing standard bearer and Apothecary).
Company Master (Master of the 3rd, 4th and 5th companies)
- May take a five man command squad but doesn’t have to join them.
Ezekiel – Grandmaster of the Librarians
- comes with both DA Psyker powers plus Mindworm.
Dark Angels Librarian
- Pretty much the same as codex Space Marines except has two unique powers – Hellfire and Force Barrier (may not change them).
Dark Angels Chaplain
- Pretty much the same as codex Space Marines, may be upgraded to Interrogator Chaplains
- May take Terminator armour, bikes or Jump Packs.
Dark Angels Command squads (max 5 models) are a HQ choice but do not take up a HQ slot you can take one for IC but they do not automatically form a retinue and may separate.
- Fearless
- May only take a Company Champion Upgrade if a Company Master is part of the army

Elites
Deathwing Terminator squad
- Squad Size is five models (no more/no less).
- All members of the Deathwing are fearless
- Only one heavy weapon per squad (One assault cannon, one Cyclone launcher or one heavy flamer).
- Squad can include a mixture of standard and close combat terminators.
- Uses special rule ‘Deathwing Assault’ up to 50% of terminator squads may deepstrike in the first turn without having to roll for deepstrike.
- Terminators are cheaper than the old Dark Angel codex but more expensive than Codex Space Marine Terminators
Company Veterans squad
- Base of five models and up to an additional five (although a max. squad of ten is needed to use the rule ‘combat squads’).
- Can take a mixture of weaponry (combi-weapons, storm bolters, special and heavy weapons).
Techmarines
- Counts as elites but does not use an Elite slot in the FoC.
- One Techmarine may be taken for each non transport vehicle included in an army.
Dark Angels Scout Squad
- Base is five marines and veteran sgt.
- May include a further five scouts.
- Armed with Krak, Frag and bolt pistol and one of the following as standard – Bolter, Shotgun or Close Combat weapon.
- Shotgun is now S4.
- Rest of options similar to scout squads.


Troops
Tactical squad
- Uses ‘combat squads’ rule
- May take a special weapon if five marines and a special and heavy weapon if ten marines (heavy weapon includes plasma cannon)
Ravenwing Attack squadron (If Master of the Ravenwing taken).
Deathwing Terminator Squad (If Master of the Deathwing taken).


Fast Attack
Assault squad
- Uses ‘combat squads’ rule
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
- Base of three bikes (may add another three to a maximum of six.
- All Ravenwing bikes are fearless.
- All Ravenwing bikes (including attack bikes) come with teleport homers and Scout USR as standard
- Two bikes may take a special weapon (flamer, melta or plasma at a points cost).
- Attack bike can be added as standard
- If squadron consists of maximum bikes (six) then a land speeder Tornado may be added.
- Squadron is deployed at the same time but may be separated into four scoring units (2x3 bikes, 1 x attack bike and 1 x land speeder Tornado).
Ravenwing Support Squadron
- Base is one land speeder.
- May include up to four more land speeders, one may be a Tornado and one more a Typhoon.


Heavy Support
Devastators
- May use ‘combat’ squads rule allowing squad to be split into 2x5 marines; this allows you to split out heavy weapons into two units.


Vehicle information
Vehicles come with searchlights and smoke launchers as standard equipment.
Drop pods are more expensive all other vehicles remain at the same price or are cheaper.
Whirlwinds have an option for incendiary Castellan missiles that remove cover saves.
Dreadnoughts may take a Plasma cannon or Twin-linked Autocannon.


General Information
All Dark Angels wearing power armoured come with krak, frag and bolt pistols as standard
All Dark Angels squads are led by veteran sergeants.
Standards of Fortitude, Devastation and Retribution now come under a single classification of ‘sacred standard’ and require an interrogator-chaplain in the army to use.
No veteran skills available to Dark Angels.
Codex follows the same format as the recently released Eldar codex.
‘Combat squads’ used for many selections, base is five models and then may be given another five models for a maximum of 10. When deployed unit may be split into two separate scoring units.
Jink Save for the Ravenwing is gone.
Stubborn and Intractable are gone.
Rules for Cypher are not included in the codex
No Mortis Dreadnought in the codex.


Miniature Information
Several new HQ models including two new captains (already seen) along with remakes of named characters.
Dark Angels upgrade sprue (similar to the Black Templars one but of better quality), icons for vehicle upgrades (no separate door sets). Including Deathwing parts and robed bodies.
New Ravenwing sprue (including parts for the MotRW landspeeder)
New Land Speeder sprue including parts for Tornado and Typhoon.
2 army deals will be available - 1 Ravenwing and 1 normal Dark Angels
New model for Cypher.
Cypher is getting a new model. The new model of Cypher is confirmed, due for a late release. The model is in a pose crossed between the Emperor's champion and the LOTR Witch King. I hope you get what I mean. He is looking slightly downwards, and is armed with a very nice sword and some pistol I didn't recognise. (source Destris)
Plastic Devastators and potentially a plastic Drop pod maybe released alongside the codex.

Holly power armor Batman. Lots of great info we have been waiting for. Rep for you my friend.

I'm bummed about stubborn and intractable going away. Fearless has many of the same effects, except when you loose in close combat. You can take wounds for being fearless, but not stubborn. Oh well, might make them 'arder.

Interesting how the scouts are elites, guess that nixes my idea of a large scout DA army. :( I do like how everything comes with Vet Sgt automatically, and the combat squads are cool as well as a S4 shotty. :) Again to bad scouts aren't troops. mwuahahaha.

I have a question regarding the devastator combat squads though. If you have 10 and split them, does that mean each 5 man teach can have 4 heavies, or you have to split 4 heavies between the two 5 man squads. If you can have 4 heavies in each then that is pretty powerful as far as heavy weapons per FOC slot. If not though, it seems kind of worthless. That means 2 heavy weapons, with only 3 extra wounds to protect them, not sure it's worth it.

New Cypher model? Hmm figures since I moded/painted one up real nice for my Fallen army. It soundslike mine though, I moded his second arm with a cut off sword in it, and left off the one slung across his back. LOL

So not seeing anything about "oldest chapter has access to unique old gear" stuff like the plasma cannon thing. Other then the dread taking PC and RAC.


Also, what's with the Liby? So they come with those two powers, and that's it, can't change OR add any powers from the SM Liby list? Kind of limiting, so hopefully those Hellfire and Force Barrier powers are cool and fluffy. If Force Barrier is like what someone else posted, I'd rather have an offensive power then that. Shoot I can just give him Iron Halo.

When the news came out that Dark Angels were getting a revamp, I was ecstatic. But the more and more I hear the less and less I want it to come. All I really want is just an update to justify the high points I am paying now.

I have a complete DA army. Infantry, Deathwing, and Ravenwing, 1500 Points each or more. I really like the variety that I could field.

The following is all my complaining with a few positive:

Deathwing
- 1 heavy, sucks when every one else gets 2
- 5 man squad, Ok I use drop pods and can only take 5
- mixed weapons, still thinking, but an assault cannon with all close combat, ummm
- Deathwing Assault, that is nice 75% or more is better, but I will gladly take 50% on first turn

Veterans squad
- did not have them before do we really need them now?

Scout Squad
- Are they really Elite forces?

Tactical squad
- May take a special weapon if five marines and a special and heavy weapon if ten marines -being forced to take 10 man teams just to have a hvy is not a good idea, if you take less than 10 you get a little more mobility, will be forced to use Meltas and Plasma guns more effectively.

Fast Attack
- Can I only take regular landspeeder or can I take all Tornados like I do now, being able to take Typhoons may be interesting.
- Slicing the force into separate force structure elements once deployed is a neat concept.

Vehicles
- Dreadnoughts may take a Plasma cannon or Twin-linked Autocannon. I use Imperial Armor rules anyway.
- Drop pods are more expensive, WHY what bonus do we get for this increase in cost.

General
- All Dark Angels wearing power armored come with krak, frag and bolt pistols as standard, do we have to pay extra for bolters. These sound like more of a close combat and assault oriented troops.
- All Dark Angels squads are led by veteran sergeants. This is nice
- No veteran skills- this sucks
- Jink Save for the Ravenwing is gone. Stubborn and Intractable are gone. These were what made DA special
- Combat squads’ - This is going to make things interesting. It will be neat to see what happens when you deploy 6 units and then spit them to make 12 separate units running around the board. This will force people to make target priority extremely seriously.
- The ability to have other units like Cmd Squad or Techmarines which do not count against Force Structure is nice.

Complaining is almost over.

These updates are not what I expected. I was hoping that the new codex would be somewhat like the old one just more info and something that really made DA special. Now DA is special but it seems like they took it in a different direction.

I am a little disappointed but may get excite once it is all said and done, heck I may really like the new rules, but then again, I dislike change.

This is what I would have liked to seen. Give the current Deathwing the Deathwing Assault skill and 2 assault cannons with a 5 man team. Allow us to use plasma cannons as assault weapons; now that would be cool. Upgrade the Ravenwing a little. Add the Vet Sgt, and grenade upgrades to the Tactical Squads. Do not change the cost of Drop Pods, maybe make them 5 pts cheaper.

You want a bad reaction to this stuff go here: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/clubs-clans/50830-order-white-sword-inner-circle-147.html it put me in a fairly bad mood, but I must say i've mediated my tones a little now.

As for some general points to the prior posters on this thread.

Gman, Stubborn currently makes you subject to 'No retreat' in the same manner as Fearless or ATSKNF run downs. The ONLY differance is pinning.

Against enemies with Ws4+ Shotguns are better than Bolt Pistol+C.C.W! wow, but particularly DAish?

As for the Devastators, you get up to 4 heavy weapons between the two detachments. I can see 3 Bolters+2 Plasma Cannon plus 3 Bolters+2 Heavy Bolters becoming a feature in my army, trump that Long Fangs!

As for old with wargear, well there is the 'Frag, Krak and a B.P' for all, as well as Plasma Cannon a Jetbike for the MoRavenwing, TL Autocannon for the Dreads too.

Though fewer Veteran Skills makes less sense.

As for Darkomis.

You must realise that Codex DA is not only that but also 'what we would have done with Codex SM if we were better games designers.'-Point Omicron.

Assault Cannon are too good, DA get some limitations.

Veterans, gotta agree they dont fit DA fluff at all, unles we found an extra ccompany somewhere or mislaid some Terminator suits...

Scouts, i'm very doubtful of this rumour i'd think it's a copy and paste error.

Tactical Squads, 5 man squad with heavies are 'powergaming' see point omicron.

Dreadnoughts, Without Tank Hunter I wouldnt take a TL Auto Cannon.

Drop Pods, See point Omicron. Rumours do say that other vehicles will get cheaper.

DA Tacs will retain bolters, but gain the other equpment, expect a points increase.

A Veteran Sergeant for the Devastators? with all these Vet Sgts I dont see a Masters Rites of Battle having any purpose at all.

I can't say i'm thrilled overall but hopefully it'll be better than the rumours suggest.

So the extra AC in the Upgrade Sprue is debunked? I guess you could buy an Assault termie box and the upgrade sprue so that you could get an AC. Makes no sense.

So the extra AC in the Upgrade Sprue is debunked? I guess you could buy an Assault termie box and the upgrade sprue so that you could get an AC. Makes no sense.

I heard that was debunked a long time ago. Then again I thought the 5/10 Tac thing was disproven too.

Brimstone is usualy a reliable source though, bear in mind that rumours are just that this isn't definite but it's more likely than 'possible' and beyond 'plausible'. 'Probable' I wouldnt like to say though.

Yea, thinking about this more, I'm not liking some things more. No Vet skills is kinda bad. Especially since they give the pistols automaticaly, that just asks to get Furious charge.
Same with assault DW squads, they just need to have furious charge, and shooty assault squads should have tank hunters.

I thin for DW squads it should be either 2 AC, or 1CML. But not only 1 weapon. Even with DW assault, that's only like 3-4 heavies on the table to start, with 5 wounds per. Not so good IMHO.

Didn't realize stubborn meant you still got wounds from loosing combat. I guess fearless is better then. /shrug.

Still don't like static Libys

Didn't realize stubborn meant you still got wounds from loosing combat. I guess fearless is better then. /shrug.

Theres not that much differance to be honest, how often are pinning weapons used? how often can they kill Terminators? how often do the DW fail on Ld 9 with at most -1 for under half strength modifier and an Ordnance Barrage -1 (not many Ords are a threat to DW though).

Additionaly the DW might have had a Grand Master or Chaplain (Ld10/Fearless). I've honestly never had a DW squad pinned and didn't mind a slightly different to the ubiquitous 'Fearless' rule.

To be honest if I had the options to buy Frags/Kraks/B.P's for my Tacs now I wouldnt. Tac's arent for assaulting on the whole and Kraks have to be the most useless waste of explosives designed by the Imperium of Man (Mortar shells included).

All it means to me is more expensive models with pointless skills. If Devastators have to take it all well.....

Deathwing assault + heavy weapon limits + mixed Assault weapons in squads. Looks like GW is telling us how to play Deathwing. Too bad folks have invested so much in all those extra assault cannons already for their 3rd edition Codex deathwing armies. Good way to generate revenue from fans though.

I love the idea of assault teminators, but Deep Strike would still make them sitting ducks after a shooting phase...

Elite Scouts... ever wonder how they know when to have the Ravenwing hunt down fallen? I was mulling over how a super-reclusive, xenophobic chapter would ever gather information... Seems like someone must ferret them out.

Not a fan of the combat squads.

All in all, I'l probably stick with my traited marines unless the Codex differs greatly from the rumors. Maybe one of the Special Characters or Libraian Powers will give us an ability that "makes" the chapter, like "Lysander Wing" is the reason to take Imperial Fists.

Any word on the special items like Blades of Reasoning, Cup of Retribution and Lion Helm? Those were some interesting items, if not a little broken rules wise. :)

I think it will be fun to have my Fallen Angels army all done when this comes out, and everyone out there is playing DA. Although probably buy any special limited army deals to build later on.

sounds very very interested, all these rumors.....I just hope this doesn't turn into another player flood....(like all the BT's that showed up back in the day)


Maybe this will lead to the game being more 40kish as apposed to tourney ish.....

by that I mean maybe this will give people new ways to play marines...instead of a BETTER marine

On devestaors (doent need its own thread)

Info from my ever-reliable ;) source...

The new plastic Devastator sprues contain eight heavy weapons, including two heavy bolters, two missile launchers, two lascannons, one plasma cannon and one multi-melta.

I think this a pretty good thing, even though I collect Templars!



-Doom

Wow that's awesome actually. I like that they will be plastic, but having all those options rocks. That means from just two boxes you can make 3 dev squads. 1 all HB, 1 all ML, and 1 with 2 PC and 2MM.

Wow that's awesome actually. I like that they will be plastic, but having all those options rocks. That means from just two boxes you can make 3 dev squads. 1 all HB, 1 all ML, and 1 with 2 PC and 2MM.

Plus for DA you basicaly get 'split fire' for SW Long Fangs with two squads of 5 each with 2 Heavy Weapons.

Plus for DA you basicaly get 'split fire' for SW Long Fangs with two squads of 5 each with 2 Heavy Weapons.

Which is going to be damned nifty IMO. :yes:

The one thing I really hope they fix in this codex is point values. DA are probably the most expensive SM around, and no one really knows why....

They used to pay more for almost everything, and if the drop pods rumour is true then this problem seems to be carrying onto this codex.

Shame that :(

The only bummer thing about the command squads is you have to take a full 10 man Veteran squad. So basically, most people probably won't be doing that in smaller games under 1500. Veteran squads can be cool and all, and especially in DA I think, but I rarely see people use them. Not to mention they are pricey.

Plus for DA you basicaly get 'split fire' for SW Long Fangs with two squads of 5 each with 2 Heavy Weapons.

Silver Wings,

Can't all Space Marines already do that? I don't have my SM codex on me right now, but I'm pretty sure I can buy 2 devastator squads with 5 marines in each, and upgrade 2 guys in each with Heavy Weapons. What is the difference?

I've been a Space Wolves player since 1992 and I don't care much for Long Fangs. First, you don't get any "meat shields" as every Long Fang but the Pack Leader (Sergeant) has to have a Heavy Weapon. You can split fire, which is cool for a turn or so, but with the very first wounding hit to the pack you have a dilemma in choosing who to remove as a casualty. You can either remove an expensive and important heavy weapon toting Long Fang, or you can remove the expensive Pack Leader and immediately lose the ability to split your fires.

Best regards,

Valerian

Silver Wings,

Can't all Space Marines already do that? I don't have my SM codex on me right now, but I'm pretty sure I can buy 2 devastator squads with 5 marines in each, and upgrade 2 guys in each with Heavy Weapons. What is the difference?


Certainly you can already do that, however I always take a Vindicator and Whirlwind as well as an occasional Devastator Squad. Although if you have free Heavy Slots this isnt much of an improvement for me it's a simple added bonus.

I've played SW with Long Fangs before, they really liked them but then again I didn't find them much of a challenge. I can easily se why they'd be a waste of points.

The difference is, with a split squad, it's only 1 slot on the FOC. So for example, you could have 3 Dev squads of 10 men each. But you split each one up into 5 man, 2 HW squads.

This means there are 6 targets, of 2 heavy weapons each on the table. I agree that a 5 man squad will get eaten up fast from fire. But have 4-6 heavy weapon squads on the table means either the opponent is firing everything at 1 to wipe it out, or splitting their fire, thus making the odds better for you.

Thing is, you can even put the squads, devs or tac, next to each other so they can fire at the same targets. But for your opponent, it's two seperate targets to shoot AND assault.

Certainly you can already do that, however I always take a Vindicator and Whirlwind as well as an occasional Devastator Squad. Although if you have free Heavy Slots this isnt much of an improvement for me it's a simple added bonus.

Okay, that's what I thought. The advantage, then, is the fact that you can save the use of an FOC slot with the new DA method, which certainly is valuable. As G Man points out, you could have several of these 5/2 teams and have several other heavy support choices, which does make for an especially shooty SM force. Add to this the 5/1 team that you can get from splitting a maxed tactical squad means a whole lot of heavy weapons on the table.

I've played SW with Long Fangs before, they really liked them but then again I didn't find them much of a challenge. I can easily se why they'd be a waste of points.[/quote]

Yeah, I've always found them to be a waste, and look elsewhere for anti-armor capability. I am particulary pleased with how well suited the Space Wolves are to the drop pod assault army techinique, and can trade lascannon and missile launchers in a Long Fang pack with more reliable meltaguns and power fists in drop podding Grey Hunter packs.

Best regards,

Valerian

I thought split Tactical squads could only have one special per unit. You can't have a heavy at all unless all 10 are together in one squad. That's not bad though, because that essentially gives a second special, ie plasmagun. So you can have 2 5 man squads with a plasmagun in each. And again, you can have these 2 units stand next to each other, firing 8 bolters and 2 plasmaguns.

Now thinking about it, since each 5 man squad needs a Sgt, you can have 2 powerfists there as well. And since DA will supposedly be able to use BP/CCW as standard, that means two small assault squads with a powerfist in each. yum.

I thought split Tactical squads could only have one special per unit. You can't have a heavy at all unless all 10 are together in one squad.

That's what I was getting at, but might not have been clear. In addition to splitting those Dev Squads as we discussed, you could get several full size (10 man) Tactical Squads, each with a Special and a Heavy Weapon, split them in half, and augment your 5/2 Dev Combat Squads with the 5/1 Tactical Support Squads. The other half of the Tactical Squad would get the Vet Sergeant with PF, and the Special Weapon and move forward to engage (if appropriate based on the mission, etc.).

The Tactical Squad portion is nothing new, and standard SM can already do that just by getting a bunch of small squads and giving each a lascannon. The new part is the large number (up to 6) of little fire support teams that you can make with your Heavy Support slots if you choose to. Combining the two means a whole lot of heavy weapon goodness spread throughout the Dark Angel army.

Regards,

Valerian

I thought of something. I wonder if you can make one half of the squad, 5 guys, use BP/CCW and the other half of the squad use bolters. This could make for some interesting fire support/combat support combos.

Run the 5 with BP/CCW and powerfist, next to or in front of, the other 5 with bolters and powerfist. I see some potential for some fun army combos, that people are not used to dealing with. :ninja:

I dont think the new Tactical layout will be quite as good as you suggest GMan.

You have to buy a full Tac Squad to get a single heavy weapon and although the choice is divided into two you still only get 1 Sgt, 1 Special and 1 Heavy. You may want to run the Vet Sgts half at the enemy, but 5 strong it's not much of a Powerfist screen.

Trying to go shooty-Tacticals means buying 10 man squads for a Special and Heavy, not that great an advantage.

This whole system is GW's way of stopping min-maxing.

This whole system is GW's way of stopping min-maxing.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head there, and the change to Tacticals will prevent this. However, the change to Devastators will actually allow a new breed of min-maxing, whereby multiple 5/2 support squads could be taken with other Heavy Support choices.

I honestly don't mind this adjustment, however, as the min-maxing opportunity really didn't appeal to me, and didn't fit into my notion of what SM forces are intended to look like (based on my interpretation of the fluff anyway).

Valerian

I somewhat like the idea, but the more I think about it the less and less I like it. Being forced to take the 10 man squad just to get the heavy weapon is asinine. I run with 7 or 8 man squads, allowing me to take 6 missile launcher or what ever heavy weapon I want. If I needed to cut a little to make points, I can reduce the number of bolters in the squad, and still have the ML and even a melta gun in each squad.

It seems like GW wants to force DA players to play with 10 man squads and use the split squad rule, because who is going to take a squad without a heavy in it. (Be it there are instances when a heavy is not needed, in general most to all players will take the heavy weapon 99% of the time.) I do not like being told how I should play my army. (Side note – in my drop pod infantry army I do not have heavy weapons with in my squads, so I would not need 10 men to get the metal gun).

The ability to split the squad is neat, and should only be allowed if you take a full 10 man squad. But the rule about taking 10 men just for the heavy weapon is idiotic, this rule is a detractor and detrimental to any DA force. What happens when you are playing a1500 pt game and the force you want to run is at 1515 or 1520. If you have already removed all the unnecessary war gear, where do you take the last 20 or so points from? The old response would be to remove one man from your Tactical Squad; this new rule would FORCE you to have a 9 man squad loosing your ability to take a heavy, weakening your force.

I always wonder who is making decisions at GW. If any one finds out please do not tell me, for it would slowly destroy my will to live.

The ability to split the squad is neat, and should only be allowed if you take a full 10 man squad. But the rule about taking 10 men just for the heavy weapon is idiotic, this rule is a detractor and detrimental to any DA force. What happens when you are playing a1500 pt game and the force you want to run is at 1515 or 1520. If you have already removed all the unnecessary war gear, where do you take the last 20 or so points from? The old response would be to remove one man from your Tactical Squad; this new rule would FORCE you to have a 9 man squad loosing your ability to take a heavy, weakening your force.


Darkomis,

As I understand it, I don't think you can take a 9 man squad anymore; its either 5 or 10, with nothing in between. Therefore, to get under your points ceiling you'll have to cut out something other than a Tactical Marine (at least now you won't have to lose that heavy weapon, maybe).

One drawback I see to this is if you wanted to run a drop pod army and planned on joining your Independent Character to a 9 man Tactical Squad; that wouldn't be allowed anymore. Now I think you'd pretty much have to just get him a Command Squad to come down with, even if you didn't want to do that.

Valerian

So, am I the only one who cares about Ravenwing anymore?

So, some of my thoughts about Ravenwing, for those who care:

-Army box: Cool, Good way to get a good deal on bikes and stuff. They always have a good deal in boxes, if you need what's in them. And with ravenwing, since you pretty much have 3 units to use, You will probably need what's in the box. Sounds like a good deal.

-Attack Squadrons: Neat idea, interested to see how it play out. Just like the combat squad thing, it could really change up the game, if you use 3 troop slots, and have 9 scoring units... interesting.

-Landspeeder Squadron: 5 speeders, one of which can be tornado, and one can be typhoon? I don't see these being played... maybe a group of two speeders, a tornado and a typhoon, or something like that. Not big thoug. I see most speeders being played in the attack squadrons which sounds fun to me.

-Jetbike HQ: I think one word sums this up: RAD.

-Army Colors: Are they going to give us an alternate scheme besides black? I mean, don't get me wrong, the army looks fearsome, but I'm not all that hot for the color black - I mean, my Eldar are Orange, my Guard is brown and grey, my kroot are green, my grey knights are silver, my tyranids are purple.... I like my colors. I'll see what I can squeeze out. I think this is just a personal issue...

-Popularity: This is also a personal issue.... Do you guys think a lot of peeps are going to start playing Ravenwing? I mean, part of the reason I play them is because nobody else does... like my kroot. If a whole bunch of retarded little kids start playing Ravenwing, and loosing a whole bunch with them, nobody will repsect them anymore, like they do now.... I hope that GW makes them elusive like they are now....

Just my thoughts...

as the the rest of the RUMORS...

I like it. Gives it a good, fluffy feeling. The only thing I don't like, is that my local gaming club doesn't allow special characters, so I can't try out any of the cool HQ's :-(

The 5/10 Tacs make almost no sense fluffwise either.

DA Battle and Reserve companies follow the Codex Astartes. If that's the case then why are they so radicaly different from other Chapters in Squad formation and deployment?

Valerian, my understanding is that you cant attach an IC to a squad and have them Drop Pod together as they are separate shoice slots.

I'm with Jhagadurn on most of his RW points 5 strong LS squadrons of mixed types? no chance. As for attaching/detaching lots of things to a Bike Squadron meh. You'll probably only get a normal LS and in a RW army you ought to have slots for AB's anyway.

The 5/10 Tacs make almost no sense fluffwise either.

DA Battle and Reserve companies follow the Codex Astartes. If that's the case then why are they so radicaly different from other Chapters in Squad formation and deployment?

SW, My assumption is that this will be changed for the other chapters in a future revision of Codex SM, so the DA won't end up being so radically different after all. Also, IIRC, this was pretty much how it worked in 2nd edition where Tactical Squads were always 10 strong, then the Combat Squad idea came out, which allowed you to break your Tactical Squad in half.


Valerian, my understanding is that you can't attach an IC to a squad and have them Drop Pod together as they are separate shoice slots.

Not anymore; the updated BGB FAQ clarified this:

"If the Reserves rules are used, you must roll separately for all Force Organisation chart selections at the start of the turn (including rolling separately for Independent Characters and non-dedicated transports). Once you worked out which units are available in that turn, you are allowed to combine them in any legal way. For example, if an independent character, a squad and a nondedicated transport all become available at the beginning of turn 3, you could deploy them all separately as normal, or the character could join the unit and then the unit could enter the battlefield embarked on the transport, as long as they fit inside it. Or any other legal combination."

So, the IC can still join prior to deployment via Drop Pod, as long as both roll to come onto the board at the same time. If you were only going to send one unit via drop pod, then this wouldn't be very reliable, but with most drop pod assaults, folks send down as much as you can in them. All you have to do is take all of your squads at a maximum of 9 strong in order to ensure there is room for your character. However, the 10/5 standard means no room for the boss.


I'm with Jhagadurn on most of his RW points 5 strong LS squadrons of mixed types?

Yes, that is unfortunately lame.

Valerian

Only 1 Sgt for a unit? Well that does suck. I forget, but if you take 10 and get the heavy, can you still split it, putting a special in half and the heavy in the other half? Even though it's not ideal, I can still see potential with this setup.
10 man marine unit.
5 with BP/CCW and powerfist and meltagun
5 with bolters and heavy weapon.
Run them close together, supporting each other as much as possible. Remembering that they are all fearless so no one is running anywhere or pinned.

It is a strange configuration, 5 or 10 no less no more. But I have to say I like the heavy weapon limitation. Maybe Dark does 7-8 man units with a heavy. But I have seen a lot of armies in tournies that are only 5 with a heavy and a powerfist. Total min/max the choices, then use elites and fast for their large number squads. Just lame, and as someone pointed, against the Astartes.

Ravenwing armies are just way stylish. They are rare, but I think the army deal will only make them slightly more popular. Just keep in mind, like most new armies, there is a surge of new players out there, but then it dies down. Especially in the case of hard to play armies like the BT, and more so RW. RW is and expensive army $$ wise, and tricky to play. But I think these new rules will keep them unique and special as they are meant to be. I like the attack bike for a landspeeder squadron. That's a lot of shooting on the table that can move fast.

SW, My assumption is that this will be changed for the other chapters in a future revision of Codex SM, so the DA won't end up being so radically different after all. Also, IIRC, this was pretty much how it worked in 2nd edition where Tactical Squads were always 10 strong, then the Combat Squad idea came out, which allowed you to break your Tactical Squad in half.

Fair points but this DA codex is looking more like 'Codex: We stuffed up SM here's a better way of doing it'.

Thus things such as:
Min-Maxing
Assault Cannons
Land Speeders
etc

Are removed/changed in an act of GW saying 'we were thick over C:SM' let's take it out on DA and stuff the fluff.

I hadnt seen that FAQ before, is it on the US website? I couldnt find it anywhere on the UK one. It's also nice to see such minor issues printed direct into the rulebook instead of FAQ'ed much later...

Fair points but this DA codex is looking more like 'Codex: We stuffed up SM here's a better way of doing it'.

Thus things such as:
Min-Maxing
Assault Cannons
Land Speeders
etc

Are removed/changed in an act of GW saying 'we were thick over C:SM' let's take it out on DA and stuff the fluff.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they really screwed it up; the 4th edition C:SM is a fine product, and was after all the first codex in the new ruleset. However, I do believe that they've seen some issues after two years worth of play and are using the Codex: Dark Angels as the vehicle to fix issues/adjust the outcomes. As long as these refinements are done with the goal of improvement and game balance, I won't compain.


I hadnt seen that FAQ before, is it on the US website? I couldnt find it anywhere on the UK one. It's also nice to see such minor issues printed direct into the rulebook instead of FAQ'ed much later...

Here is the link to the UK errata in the "Shrine of Knowledge": GW Online : News : Errata (http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/3/) Just scroll down past the Warhammer section to get to the Warhammer 40K section. In addition to the updated BGB FAQ, they updated several others as well, including Tyranids, Black Templars, Space Marines, and Tau (all the previous 4th edition codices).

Best regards,

Valerian

Yep, Im somewhat sketchy on the whole thing as well. Mainly because I have so bloody many dark angels that Changing them would be a moot point, and well, kinda stupid to do codex marines, since I have a pretty sizable deathwing army.

I just really hope they don't screw the pooch on all of this.

I mean the squad changes, well... ok I'll deal with that. Although 1 Heavy weapon per squad sucks, I never really relied on too much else for my tacs but the emperors divine instrument of gluteal smackdowncery, The bolter. spliting the squad into 2 semi autonomous units not constrained by cohesion? I think its awesome. I have always been a maneuver-oriented player, as I believe proper tactical movement wins more battles then raw firepower any day of the week.

Terminators? I scared. I mean I love my deathwing. but really, taking the other HW away from the terminators is a bit on the crippling side. Maybe not to everyone, but seriously that, in combination with the squad size rules applying to deathwing I think will seriously re-define deathwing play for a while. Really puts a crimp in a few of my standard deathwing loadouts. Makes the LRC additional transport capacity essentially useless. and as I like to load that mother up with a chaplain and assault terminators, ooh. now I can put 5 in there. Whee. Real Intimidation there, hell even if that unit never made it into assault the pure terror it inspired kept opponents from ignoring it. Now.. well gone. Although the ability to mix assault terminators, and standard is nifty keen and all, I really dont see it as useful, to any major extent, as our anti-vehicle capabilities are cut in half outside assault range. and the only things we could take to improve that capability is a pricy land raider.

Special Characters? Well I have always loved the Master of the Ravenwing. Cool model, cool abilities. If they change the raven sword, frankly I'll be bummed even if they give him AV 14. Veteran Sgt Naaman is pretty much assuradly gone. Which sucks. Neat character. Hopefully the remainders get a bit more uber, as frankly I'm not impressed as of yet.

I'm pretty irritable about the scouts as well. I mean really we now only have 1 troop choice, that can be bought in pretty inflexible 5-10 man blocks. Scouts are now elites, which sucks for me personally as I have a pretty substantial collection of scouts as I based one iteration of my DA army on a light infantry force (all scouts and fast attack)

Speaking of fast attack, I'm hoping that they dont completely bohica the Ravenwing, as I have plenty of land speeder tornadoes, but apparently they are minimizing all of the possible assault cannons I can take. I guess there are more available if you have a shiny blue suit. the shiny green ones get things that overheat. (sigh)

Frankly I'm holding my breath on the future of this codex. hopefully, the balances that offset some of the COUGHNERFSCOUGH "downgrades" will manifest soon.

I mean the squad changes, well... ok I'll deal with that. Although 1 Heavy weapon per squad sucks, I never really relied on too much else for my tacs but the emperors divine instrument of gluteal smackdowncery, The bolter. spliting the squad into 2 semi autonomous units not constrained by cohesion? I think its awesome. I have always been a maneuver-oriented player, as I believe proper tactical movement wins more battles then raw firepower any day of the week.

I agree with you I feel the same way and the ability to split units will also provide you with more scoring units meaning that your opponants will have to be more carefull with regards to what they fire at.

Terminators? I scared. I mean I love my deathwing. but really, taking the other HW away from the terminators is a bit on the crippling side. Maybe not to everyone, but seriously that, in combination with the squad size rules applying to deathwing I think will seriously re-define deathwing play for a while. Really puts a crimp in a few of my standard deathwing loadouts. Makes the LRC additional transport capacity essentially useless. and as I like to load that mother up with a chaplain and assault terminators, ooh. now I can put 5 in there. Whee. Real Intimidation there, hell even if that unit never made it into assault the pure terror it inspired kept opponents from ignoring it. Now.. well gone. Although the ability to mix assault terminators, and standard is nifty keen and all, I really dont see it as useful, to any major extent, as our anti-vehicle capabilities are cut in half outside assault range. and the only things we could take to improve that capability is a pricy land raider.

This will be a problem for deathwing players on the whole as DW generally does not allow for many characters owing to the cost of the units themselves.
Again the ability to mix weapons is no biggie either as most players prefer to keep their terminator in a particular tactical role anyway.


I'm pretty irritable about the scouts as well. I mean really we now only have 1 troop choice, that can be bought in pretty inflexible 5-10 man blocks. Scouts are now elites, which sucks for me personally as I have a pretty substantial collection of scouts as I based one iteration of my DA army on a light infantry force (all scouts and fast attack)

I can see where GW are coming from in doing this as they want to portray Dark Angels as a firepower army that stands back and blasts the enemy with firepower before counter attacking rather than getting up close to them with infiltrators and assualting.
But I do sympathise with you.

I can see where GW are coming from in doing this as they want to portray Dark Angels as a firepower army that stands back and blasts the enemy with firepower before counter attacking rather than getting up close to them with infiltrators and assualting.
But I do sympathise with you.

My problem is that unless they are essentially re-writing a lot of the pre-existing fluff, the DA weren't just "Plasma-happy-sit-back-and-shoot-the-crap-out-of-everything" though. there was a lot more to it and me personally but standing back and shooting is one of the provinces of the imperial guard, the necessities of proper military strategy prohibit a combined arms force from being presumed as capable of more then a simple firing line. Not to mention the very background of the DA describe the overwhelming attention to strategic matters, so I guess things are just confusing at this present point.

That really sucks about your scouts. I had intended to make a mostly scout DA army, but I guess not now. Although the thought of 2, 10 man scouts squads with all shotguns and a powerfist sounds fun. :w00t: Better stated Eldar guardians with a powerfist.

I'm not sure I understand the changes behind the DW. That seriously limits the fire power of a DW army. If you take dreads, that's an elite slot. And I agree, 5 man units kind of makes teh LRC not worth the points. But with only 5 man units and 1 heavy each, you need some ranged fire power somewhere.

My only thought about the mixed units is that the intention would be, a heavy weapon, and the other 4 would assault termi. It seems with only 5 max, that's really the option. You DS in shoot the heavy, hope you last a round, then run up to get into assault where you tear things up and can't get shot at anymore. But now your heavy is also useless. Dunno seems like they gimped it. I still think they should should make it something like this.

with only 5 termi, can only have 1 heavy, if you have a full 10 you can get 2 heavy. But need the full 10, sort of like the tactical squads.

That really sucks about your scouts. I had intended to make a mostly scout DA army, but I guess not now. Although the thought of 2, 10 man scouts squads with all shotguns and a powerfist sounds fun. :w00t: Better stated Eldar guardians with a powerfist.

I'm not sure I understand the changes behind the DW. That seriously limits the fire power of a DW army. If you take dreads, that's an elite slot. And I agree, 5 man units kind of makes teh LRC not worth the points. But with only 5 man units and 1 heavy each, you need some ranged fire power somewhere.

My only thought about the mixed units is that the intention would be, a heavy weapon, and the other 4 would assault termi. It seems with only 5 max, that's really the option. You DS in shoot the heavy, hope you last a round, then run up to get into assault where you tear things up and can't get shot at anymore. But now your heavy is also useless. Dunno seems like they gimped it. I still think they should should make it something like this.

with only 5 termi, can only have 1 heavy, if you have a full 10 you can get 2 heavy. But need the full 10, sort of like the tactical squads.

Well if you do things the way you suggested, with 1 heavy and the rest assault (in reference to Terminators) You are virtually nullifying one of the primary adavantages of a deathwing, Overwhelming firepower, currently DW are masters of the 24" killzone, the Storm Bolter in combination with the assault cannon virtually assures tons of fire on whatever unit you aim it at. if you set it up with 1 heavy and all assault weapons, you fire your AC, HF or CML, kill up to 4-5 targets (if you really luck out) and then sit there and take the incoming fire. the assault terminators are just providing 40+ point targets and when you do finally get to charge with them they dont have the benefits of furious charge anymore. I mean as far as anti-armor goes you can take dreads or LR's but I mean really, those are major fire magnets in their own right, and often easier to take out then a squad or two of terminators due to the "Lucky shot" syndrome.

My problem is that unless they are essentially re-writing a lot of the pre-existing fluff, the DA weren't just "Plasma-happy-sit-back-and-shoot-the-crap-out-of-everything" though. there was a lot more to it and me personally but standing back and shooting is one of the provinces of the imperial guard, the necessities of proper military strategy prohibit a combined arms force from being presumed as capable of more then a simple firing line. Not to mention the very background of the DA describe the overwhelming attention to strategic matters, so I guess things are just confusing at this present point.

That is true, the extra heavy weapon really does make all the difference. However you are correct when you say that there is a lot to be clarrified at yet. We had a similar issue with the Black Templars with several rumours proving to be false. We will know more as we get closer to the release date. :)

Very true Uber, that rule just seems to not make sence for DW let alone termies in general.

So any rumors about the contents of the RW army box? Supposedly there will be one in conjunction with the DA box, but have not heard anything about the contents.

HQ
Grandmaster – Azarael
- Wargear – Same as previous but with some amendments.
Belial – Master of the Deathwing
Sammael – Master of the Ravenwing
- Wargear Jetbike (armed with TL-Storm Bolters & under slung Plasma Cannon) and other stuff
- May switch to his Land Speeder in which case he now counts as a vehicle and wargear Shield of night now provides AV14 front and sides.
- If Sammael is included in a army one attack squadron may be upgraded to a Ravenwing command squad (Ravenwing standard bearer and Apothecary).Whether he's on his jetbike or in his Land Speeder, that Sammael just seems like he's going to be cool as hell. A Land Speeder with the same AV as a Land Raider?!? As expensive as it is to buy all the models, a Ravenwing Army looks pretty appealing, doesn't it?


Company Master (Master of the 3rd, 4th and 5th companies)
- May take a five man command squad but doesn’t have to join them.
Dark Angels Command squads (max 5 models) are a HQ choice but do not take up a HQ slot you can take one for IC but they do not automatically form a retinue and may separate.
- Fearless
- May only take a Company Champion Upgrade if a Company Master is part of the armyI think that's interesting that the Character doesn't have to join the Command Squad. It seems, well, rather odd. I'm not compaining, however, as this can only increase their flexibility. Also, now the IC can take a jump pack and go off and join an Assault Squad, while the Command Squad does some other task (even better would be allowing the Command Squad to upgrade to jump packs if the IC does, then they could all bound off together, but oh well).




Elites
Deathwing Terminator squad
- Squad Size is five models (no more/no less).
- All members of the Deathwing are fearless
- Only one heavy weapon per squad (One assault cannon, one Cyclone launcher or one heavy flamer).
- Squad can include a mixture of standard and close combat terminators.
- Uses special rule ‘Deathwing Assault’ up to 50% of terminator squads may deepstrike in the first turn without having to roll for deepstrike.
- Terminators are cheaper than the old Dark Angel codex but more expensive than Codex Space Marine TerminatorsThe squad size is going to hurt here more than for most squads, I think. The limitation to only one heavy weapon per squad is going to hurt a lot, and I think is the biggest disappointment here. However, I suppose with fewer Heavy Weapons, you can just buy a couple extra Marines/Terminators with the points saved. I don't think the opportunity to mix standard and close combat terminators is all that useful. The Space Wolves ability to mix and match weapons on Terminators is much more handy (Terminator with Assault Cannon and Lightning Claw, yes please!). The Deathwing Assault rule, however, is great, and might help offset some of the other issues.


Company Veterans squad
- Base of five models and up to an additional five (although a max. squad of ten is needed to use the rule ‘combat squads’).
- Can take a mixture of weaponry (combi-weapons, storm bolters, special and heavy weapons).It looks like the Veteran Squads will get even more selections than they currently do, which is pretty cool. It should be fairly easy to tailor this unit to fill any niches or gaps in the army list. Additionally, I think this unit will/can have a lot of character, without being unbalanced.


Techmarines
- Counts as elites but does not use an Elite slot in the FoC.
- One Techmarine may be taken for each non transport vehicle included in an army.Depending on their points cost, this could be very interesting. I frankly hate how Techmarines have changed over the years. But this looks like a change in the right direction, if they aren't still inordinately expensive. Additionally, consider the impact of having a Tech with Signum attached to all of those Dark Angel 5/2 Devastator Squads and getting to reroll missed attacks. That will increase the effectiveness exponentially, and further supports the "shootiness" of the army. It will also help prevent some of the overheats from those Plasma Cannon that the DA are so fond of.


Dark Angels Scout Squad
- Base is five marines and veteran sgt.
- May include a further five scouts.
- Armed with Krak, Frag and bolt pistol and one of the following as standard – Bolter, Shotgun or Close Combat weapon.
- Shotgun is now S4.
- Rest of options similar to scout squads.This I really like as well, as it forces Space Marines to base the army on the good old Tactical Marine, rather than having an army of Scouts (certain Blood Angels players are particularly bad about that).


Fast Attack
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
- Base of three bikes (may add another three to a maximum of six.
- All Ravenwing bikes are fearless.
- All Ravenwing bikes (including attack bikes) come with teleport homers and Scout USR as standard
- Two bikes may take a special weapon (flamer, melta or plasma at a points cost).
- Attack bike can be added as standard
- If squadron consists of maximum bikes (six) then a land speeder Tornado may be added.
- Squadron is deployed at the same time but may be separated into four scoring units (2x3 bikes, 1 x attack bike and 1 x land speeder Tornado).This looks pretty good. By allowing the squadron to be split you can get a whole lot more Fast Attack out of your otherwise limited FA FOC slots.


Ravenwing Support Squadron
- Base is one land speeder.
- May include up to four more land speeders, one may be a Tornado and one more a Typhoon.This I wouldn't go for, however. I would prefer to be able to stick with a single type (LST), rather than having a mixed capabilities squadron.


Heavy Support
Devastators
- May use ‘combat’ squads rule allowing squad to be split into 2x5 marines; this allows you to split out heavy weapons into two units.As discussed earlier, this could be really good, as you could have several small teams with 2 Heavy Weapons in each (allowing you to target more units/vehicles in a turn) without burning up all of you Heavy Support FOC slots.


Vehicle information
Vehicles come with searchlights and smoke launchers as standard equipment.
Drop pods are more expensive all other vehicles remain at the same price or are cheaper.
Whirlwinds have an option for incendiary Castellan missiles that remove cover saves.
Dreadnoughts may take a Plasma cannon or Twin-linked Autocannon.This is all quite reasonable, especially the decreased price for most vehicles, as they are somewhat less effective than they used to be (IMHO). As long as the hike for drop pods isn't too much, then that is probably fair, as they are very useful, and have a lot of value to an offensive army.


General Information
All Dark Angels wearing power armoured come with krak, frag and bolt pistols as standard
All Dark Angels squads are led by veteran sergeants.
No veteran skills available to Dark Angels.This all seems fair, and I like the idea of every marine coming with a "standard package" of power armor, bolt pistol, frag, and krak grenades.


Miniature Information
Dark Angels upgrade sprue (similar to the Black Templars one but of better quality), icons for vehicle upgrades (no separate door sets). Including Deathwing parts and robed bodies.
Plastic Devastators and potentially a plastic Drop pod maybe released alongside the codex.I like the all plastic devastators, and other rumours that claim the boxed set will have several additional plastic weapons (for options) is good news. The plastic Drop Pod would be great, too. I'm still not sure about every single model in the Dark Angels wearing robes, though. I kind of liked it when only the Veterans (Sergeants and above having been inducted into the Death Wing) wore the robes. We'll see though, I might change my mind after I see a few painted armies.


Well, this is just my take on a few things,

Valerian

Those are some good arguements there Valerian. My main bugbear though would be with the deathwing loosing the extra hevy weapon.
However I think this is because of the Deathwing Assualt rule, as two units of terminators turning up behind your opponants army and unleashing a hail of storm bolters followed by four assault cannons or four cyclone missiles into the enemy would be devestating especially in a tank killer role. :O

500th post WOOT!!!!! :w00t:.

I like the changes. It brings back a more old school (read: 2nd edition) feeling to the marines
I always play my 'trait' chapter marines in squads of 10 except for the devastators.
It is more rigid, but it seems correct. Remember to shed a tear for the poor guard player whose army makeup is very rigid.
anyway, the new Devastator rules more than make up for the lack of max min tactical squads
Heres hoping for cheap plastic drop pods..

Miniature Information

Several new HQ models including two new captains (already seen) along with remakes of named characters.
Dark Angels upgrade sprue (similar to the Black Templars one but of better quality), icons for vehicle upgrades (no separate door sets). Including Deathwing parts and robed bodies.
New Ravenwing sprue (including parts for the MotRW landspeeder)
New Land Speeder sprue including parts for Tornado and Typhoon.
2 army deals will be available - 1 Ravenwing and 1 normal Dark Angels
New model for Cypher.
Cypher is getting a new model. The new model of Cypher is confirmed, due for a late release. The model is in a pose crossed between the Emperor's champion and the LOTR Witch King. I hope you get what I mean. He is looking slightly downwards, and is armed with a very nice sword and some pistol I didn't recognise. (source Destris)
Plastic Devastators and potentially a plastic Drop pod maybe released alongside the codex.[/quote]
Okay, this is good.

HQ
not fussed about Azzie

Belial & Sammael, I know about Master of the Raenwing, but whether his stats are different is a mystery to me. Same with everythig on Belial, so care factor on these 3 is nil.

5-man Command squad is cool, people rarely take more than 5 anyway. So stop your griping about being robbed of what you never use.

Zeke... What's Mindworm?

Cool, so the Librarians can't choose to have different powers? Cool, I hope they're balanced for whinging's sake.

Chaplains are no different imo. Interrogator Chaplains do what special thing?

I like the way the Command squad is made. Makes a bit of flavour and possibly taking of something OTHER than Chaplains & Librarians.

Elites
5 man Termie squads aren't bad. Again, rare is the DA player with more than 5 men in a Termie squad. Added bonus for non-da players: Expect a lot of Assault Cannons to go on eBay. Added bonus for DA players, no buying 2 Termie box sets for your minimal sized squads, one box is good for all. Stop whining and think of the IRL price you will save.
Higher price is good, Fearless & the ability to have Assault Cannon with Chainfist & 4 Lightning Claw Termies merits a few extra pts.

Vets... well well... They exist too. I like this Storm Bolter & Combat Shields pic I see. No problem with taking them I think, if they can't take skills, it's a bit off, but the sheer versetility of them (compared to the tac squads & vanilla Vets) is ridiculously good.

Techmarines not taking a FoC slot? Holy guacamole! And since we Marine players like our Speeders & Whirlwinds, we can take quite a few, methinks.

Scouts as elites is nice. After all, they wouldn't be rife within the higher-up battalions, would they? And sn s4 Shottie is nice, but still bad.

Troops
Tactical squads look cool, they prohibit the boring, cut & paste min-max style the DA love to dryhump in just about every list. You actually must take 10 men, shock horror. BUT then you can still split them off into one min-max squad & a general 5-man team to make some priority checks. So the DA tactic of the century is in fact NOT gone, but you have to work for it, no 90pt tac squads except if you like Plasma or Melta.

The alternative choices look about right. No Ravenwing armies, or Deathwing armies, but you can take a mix. Brilliant.
... although that won't stop purists making the usual 50,000,000,000 "Ohnoes! My ravenwingnanomachines!" Threads like with Ulthwé.

Fast Attack
Assault squads are standard, but with split squads. Cool beans.

Ravenwing squadron. Oh. My. God.
6 bikes, Attack bike, LST... Motherlode!
So, there's 2 squads of bikers running around blasting things to shreds, an Attack bike adding support, and an LST. You still get your LST you moochers, so stop whining, now you're given an incentive to actually make fluffier Ravenwing lists. And this is dangerous because if you take the MotRw you can have 6 lone LSTs... maybe 9?

This 5 Speeder squad is, just... wow. that's 15 HB shots as standard, and upgradable to one of the specialty branches. No pure LST squadrons, but who cares? Upgrade your 1st Speeder to have a Multi-melta & give an LST to the squad and ta-daaa.

Heavy Support
full-size Long fang squads... awesome, and the new box set is a ripper, with the 2 ML, 2 HB, 2 LC, & 1 PC\1MM combo. If it still costs the same I'll cream.
Your Devs are kickass, you can effectively split fire, and you only pay 30pts more for an extra 2 ablative wounds for your typical 4ML combo. You do have some already, too. Just take 2 Tactical squad box sets, which is a good idea anyway.

Vehicle information
Do the vehicles have to pay for the extra kit? If so, then cool, if not, then WOW!

Drop pods cost more? What, a whole 40pts? Ohnoes! Your other stuff is cheaper, I'm sure a bunch of price cuts will heal your broken hearts, for balanced, non-drop-pod-addicted armies.

No cover save Castellans? That's rad.

And Dreads are cool. Now with more weapons, but will we ever see a non-forgeworld Dread AC or PC? A bit annoying IRL.

General Information
Wow, frag, Krak, & Pistols! I assume Bolters are there too, they just aren't Marines otherwise. So that means a Tac squad that moves can still shoot and assault. Congrats GW, you made a demon.

Vet sarges as standard? We do that already, unless you pay for it, the only ones that suffer are the min-max squ-- oh yeah, they're DEAD! No problems on that front.

Oh, so the 3 banners of no spectacular difference make slightly less difference again? Jeez, well, we're gonna be strained to make new tactics now. After all, we now have no reason to take a banner any more...
Not like only ~6% of SM players take a banner in their command squad anyway.

No skills is a bit bitchy, but it's all good. Termies still deepstrike & your bikers are now scouts, not to mention the sheer number of squds...

The new Eldar Codex format, it's my only gripe with the update. That was annoying with the constant flit-flitting between both entries in the same codex to see what everything actually does THEN costs.

Combat squads if filth, nice work, GW!

Jink save gone? Hmmm...
Hyper-expensive bikes which only have a 6+ inv save if they move 24" is AMAZING considering the vanilla ones only get the Turbo-boosting 3+ saves... Whatever will the turbo-boosting DA bikes do withput that 6+ instead of a 3+? Oh yeah, you're all f*cked now. This will be ANOTHER cause for wailing and gnashing of teeth though it's nothing at all.

Stubborn & Intractable were bad. Don't get pinned, and not being able to move 18& of the time... Damn, I miss that. BRING BACK STUBBORN & INTRACTIBLE! FEARLESS IS CRAP!!

So the CHAOS dude isn't in a LOYAL codex? Who knew?
And no Mortis? Yeah, cool. Not like people who don't fork out >$50 for Imperial Armour to read one entry that we can't use in tourneys are common at all, no.

Miniature Information
Cool new HQs, the stance of the Masters are crap, the models are REALLY good otherwise, but with their new level of skill, you think they'd be able to make ore dynamic stances? Ah, cest la vie.

DA upgrade sprue? Awesome, I'll be onto that.
Sounds like we're getting a good deal here.

Ravenwing sprue means we can just buy our normal bikes & Speeders. Ravenwing bikes were pretty cheesey.

2 army deals will be available - 1 Ravenwing and 1 normal Dark Angels... wow, not suckering us for cash at all, eh?

And the Cypher model has no rules, what do we do with him? :P
I suppose we throw him at the enemy player when they're winning using actual skill in tactics (beardy) & unit selections (CHEESE!).
But he may as well have a nice sword, it's Lion's right?

Plastic devs already existed, unless you're on about the actual lascannons & stuff being Plastic I give approximately 0.0000000018% of a crap.

Though the Drop pods not costing $137.5-$187.5... EACH! Just because they come from Forgeworld will be cool. If they cost more than $55 I'm gonna kill something though.




All in all. The DA have gotten good. For all those who felt the need to resist change, the soap company called, they want their boxes back.