If rumors are true, then all DA marines will come with bolt pistols as standard. If so, will captains/masters still be able to select 2 weapons, 1 one handed and 1 two handed? So my master with PW and SB should get and additional attack from the pistol even if he fires the SB before charging, correct?

Secondly, if my plasma gun wielding marine is also equipped with a bolt pistol, can I elect to fire the pistol and not risk overheating to kill a grot?

If rumors are true, then all DA marines will come with bolt pistols as standard. If so, will captains/masters still be able to select 2 weapons, 1 one handed and 1 two handed? So my master with PW and SB should get and additional attack from the pistol even if he fires the SB before charging, correct?

Secondly, if my plasma gun wielding marine is also equipped with a bolt pistol, can I elect to fire the pistol and not risk overheating to kill a grot?

First question:
No, as one of the weapons would replace his bolt pistol. Models can ONLY have 2 weapons (1 two handed, and 1 to 2 one handed, depending if you have the two handed or not), nomatter what. There are only a few exceptions to this rule (An eldar... something)

Second question:
Correct, he may choose to fire EITHER weapon in his shooting phase, but not both.

There are only a few exceptions to this rule (An eldar... something)
Yep, that's what he's talking about... the new eldar codex flew in the face of the standard codex ruling of not being able to load up on different weapons, so it's not impossible that the DA codex will follow suit and allow models to switch between their regular weapons and their bolt pistol when shooting. The rule you are quoting is not in the BGB, it's just printed in every codex except the eldar one.

Bit early to be arguing about the mechanics until the codex is released, anyway!

Not all codices restrict characters to two weapons. The SM codex for instance permits you to select two from the armory. So for instance if you are equipping a Chaplain or Librarian who comes with a weapon to begin with you could conceivably have 3 weapons on the model.

Actually, supposedly, Dark Angels characters will be able to have the 2 selected weapons AND the bolt pistol. Azrael, at least, because GW wants to give the chapter masters 6 attacks (on the charge) and everyone else 5 (supposedly characters with 3 or more base attacks will not be able to take terminator honours).

But yes, Dark Angels tactical marines will all have bolt pistols + their other weapon. This is GW's way of making DA less shooty based (well, actually more assault based). So if they want to assault, instead of skipping the shooting phase because of rapid fire denying you a charge, they can fire their bolt pistols and charge. That's three S4 attacks from everyone.

Actually it's 2, 1 for each marine and 1 for the charge, none of them have an extra ccw so they don't get the extra attack for having 2 ccw.

Actually it's 2, 1 for each marine and 1 for the charge, none of them have an extra ccw so they don't get the extra attack for having 2 ccw.

I believe he was including the single pistol shot before charging.

What the free pistol implies is that if your tactical marines are about to get assaulted, you can choose to fire the pistols and charge yourself instead. Even with out the extra attack (pistol + CCW) this has some good advantages.

1. you gain a +1 attack for charging.
2. you deny the enemy the +1 attack for charging
3. you deny the enemy any other charging bonuses, ie furious assault.

I don't know why people just don't wait for the codex and it read it then :book:.

The idea about Dark Angels getting the bolt pistols gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand, Dark Angels are known for that badass image of them on the move with nothing but a bolt pistol, firing away, but giving it to them seems to contradict their old story of them holding their ground stubbornly as they fire. With the whole counter charge thing, it seems like they'd end up behaving like insane Space Wolves instead of stubborn, immovable Dark Angels.

I'm not sure where it says that the Dark Angels were primarily a shooting-oriented army, just that they were stubborn, which means that they lend themselves more easily to being a shooting-oriented army. I prefer this move, to be honest, as it makes them slightly more flexible and, if the new Combat Squad rules are true, they are going to have a lot of unique flavour as it is.

That's just right.

The Dark Angels aren't a shooty army, their skills and rules lend themselves to make good shooty lists.

You see, the Dark Angels are still Space Marines, so they have the skill and the strength just like a Blood Angel. But, they just tend to make better shooty lists with stubborn and Intractable. I could if I wanted, write an Assaulty Dark Angels list, and it would do fairly well.

Just remember people, Dark Angels are Space Marines, NOT Tau.

GW wanted to get rid of the image of the Shooty Dark Angels, and I'm quite glad for that. [/rant]

I didn't wan't to imply that Dark Angels are supposed to be bad at close combat. Indeed, they are Marines and so are just as good at it as the other Chapters, but if you look at thinkgs like the Mortis dreadnought, the plasma weapon theme, and Cypher, a former member of the legion, it implies that shooting (specifically mid range fire fights), was their trademark.

Likewise, chapters like Black Templars and Blood Angels can shoot just as well as other Marines, but they still have rules like Kill Them All, Righteous Zeal, and Black Rage, so shooting (or at least traditional shooting) isn't really their trademark.

Yes, it is better for them from a rules standpoint and gives them flexibility, but it takes away some flavor if they start to behave so agressively.

I can imagine that the new force organisation for Dark Angels will be fairly Codex but their approach to Close Combat and the like will be similar to that of the Space Wolves. They won't be frenzied berserkers, like the Blood Angels and Black Templars, but will adopt a more controlled style of fighting (believe it or not, the Space Wolves actually do this) and they certainly compete fiercely with the Wolves in terms of willpower and courage, hence their Stubbornness. There will, of course, be subtle differences; the Dark Angels will probably be more cold in terms of their rage, becoming implacable instruments of vengeance that are as unstoppable as they are terrifying. That is what it means to be a Dark Angels Space Marine, in my opinion - it doesn't matter whether they're shooting or assaulting, as long as they are implacable, which is why Intractable was such a hindrance.

Man free pistols along with the bolters... Can anyone say Rhino Rush!?

Seriously with pistols, DA becomes a pretty nasty close up assault unit oriented army if they wanted to be.

Still, I can't wait to see some in action.

I definitely like most rumoured news about Dark Angels, but I'm overall disappointed by their role change. The old Codex allow good shooting lists with nice counterattack abilities. Following the rumours, it seems like they'll become a good offensive\cc oriented army, with a good amount of covering fire. I like the balance between shooting phase and cc,but: Ultramarines : balanced \ Black Templars : cc oriented \ Blood Angels: cc oriented \ Space Wolves : cc oriented . I'd have definitely prefered a shootier list, to give SM players a good shooting option apart from Honor you Wargear -> 3xDevastators with ML.

These rules are far from rumored. I've read each and every one of these from the codex for myself..

This allows them to carry a Bolt pistol..so they can counter charge...

but in the spirit of dark angels..they will have their plasma cannon and plasma rifles and sit and shoot from 24" away..until opportunity strikes where the Space marine superior tactics will come into play and they would shoulder their weapons and take the fight to the xeno scum.

These rules are f'in fantastic...
and the fact that all space marine commanders will have an invulnerable save of some sort..makes them all much better for clost combat..

The Commander comes with a Iron halo standard..

The Chaplain has his rosarius

and the Librarian can now take a Psychic test to save a wound..

Fluffwise the Dark Angels aren't really long ranged fighters. They are tactical masterminds and the new rules relfect that. In any situation they will never be caught off gaurd. I can't wait to see it in action.

Ultimately it will end up being a little gimmick they have, since I don't forsee them tearing up the likes of Tyranids and Orks in close combat. A round of bolt pistol fire helps, but it's not going to break the game for them. They still won't have the bonus for having a close combat weapon.

They could have given them something a little more exciting, like being able to shoot opponents that charge them. You know, that old image of Space Marines standing on a mountain of corpses, surrounded by aliens, back to back, firing untill the last man goes down.

And if they're such Tactical masterminds, why no Veteran Skills? Why no abilities like Preferred Enemy Xenos, to reflect their hatred of aliens? Mortis Dreadnoughts?

Ultimately it will end up being a little gimmick they have, since I don't forsee them tearing up the likes of Tyranids and Orks in close combat. A round of bolt pistol fire helps, but it's not going to break the game for them. They still won't have the bonus for having a close combat weapon.

They could have given them something a little more exciting, like being able to shoot opponents that charge them. You know, that old image of Space Marines standing on a mountain of corpses, surrounded by aliens, back to back, firing untill the last man goes down.

And if they're such Tactical masterminds, why no Veteran Skills? Why no abilities like Preferred Enemy Xenos, to reflect their hatred of aliens? Mortis Dreadnoughts?

Because Veterans are cheaper and dominate without their Veteran skills...

They really DON'T Need their "furious charge" or "tank Hunters" anymore..because kitted as they can be..they really..just DON'T need it...

Preffered xenos...might be nice..but not necessary seeing as how alot of armies don't have it to begin with.

and the Mortis dread you know aswell as I would be the center of a cheeze army..

2x dreads with 4 plas/cannons that can't overheat and can shoot on the move?

The whole Bolt Pistol thing confuses me somewhat, because it could have easily been solved with a DA specific rule like "Bolter Drill" or something that allows them to fire once on the charge with their bolters.

I suppose the GW headshed found a way to accomplish the same game effect without introducing a new rule, but it sure creates a lot of other questions (or so it seems).

I don't exactly know what character the new rules bring out of the DA. As it appears to me, they're more vanilla than ever. They celebrate their vanillaness. I could build the same army with UM's. What makes it worthy of a codex, other than the fluff? I mean, it would have been cool to see a comprehensive Xeno rule where they get to use it against ANY alien race, but that would have made them quite close-combat oriented, most likely. Since their fluff has mostly been "stand your ground" and "mow them down with plasma and the holy bolter", I would have expected something like they get to ignore the "get's hot" rule for their plasma weapons, or some such thing.

They've always had high-cost characters, so that's really no change. Only now they seem to be more capable.

Overall, I'm disappointed with the Codex. I don't think GW really knew what to do with them, other than what was already there. It seems like they tried to take them in a different direction anyway, and ended up with "blah" instead.

I'll get more milage from my basic codex. Too bad, I really like the Deathwing...