I was at Games Workshop today and managed to sneak a peek at the new edition of Codex: Dark Angels, as well as having some amusing chats with the staff, who hadn't heard that horrible joke about the Dark Angels' "shameful secret". Since this is my first ever rumours topic, please feel free to correct me on anything that I probably shouldn't be posting at the moment and I will edit it as swiftly as I am able.

Now then, what rumours I can confirm, I will. The original rumours thread can be found here (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-previews/86067-latest-dark-angels-rumour-round-up.html#post847569).

Codex Organisation
The layout is exactly the same as the Eldar codex with fluff kept separate from rules in order to make things a bit clearer. There is a wealth of information regarding the history of the Chapter, combat doctrine, and famous engagements, as well as separate pages dedicated to the Ravenwing and Deathwing and even a section on the six most well-known Dark Angels successor chapters, colour schemes, and a history of each. I wasn't able to determine whether the three new chapters mentioned were actually Unforgiven or if it was just a typo on the part of Jervis and the gang.

Special Rules
The combat squads rule is confirmed. Squads are purchased in increments of 5 with a Veteran Sergeant, and special weapons can be divided amongst squads. Stubborn, Intractable, and Hunt the Fallen are nowhere to be found though this is not to say that the Fallen are irrelevant in the new rules. All other rules from the standard Space Marine codex apply. All power-armoured Marines are equipped with Bolt Pistols, Frag Grenades, and Krak Grenades in addition to their other equipment. Ravenwing jink save has been revoked.

[Addendum: It is not known whether Marines can be split into two combat squads and mounted in a Drop Pod, as this is decided during the deployment phase. However, if this is possible, Dark Angels Drop Pod armies will become even more brutal and flexible than normal.]

Special Characters
As Brimstone has mentioned over at the Warseer forums, little as actually changed about the Dark Angels special characters, except that the Masters of the Ravenwing and Deathwing are named and given their own detailed backgrounds. See the Dark Angels Rumour Round-up for more details; it is more or less on the mark. Particularly of note is Sammael's Imperial Jetbike, which is armed with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter, a twin-linked Assault Cannon, and a Plasma Cannon which can all be fired at once. He can, if he wishes, use his Land Speeder, which features the upgraded Shield of Night. Little has changed for Ezekiel, except that he now possesses the new Dark Angels Librarian powers.

Standard HQ
The Dark Angels are, sadly, restricted to Company Masters and Epistolary Librarians while only the higher tier Chaplains hold the title of Interrogator-Chaplain. I didn't get a very good look at the benefits that an Interrogator-Chaplain might confer but they most certainly benefit from the Honour of the Chapter and Litanies of Hate special rules that all other Chaplains get. The base cost of these characters has also increased due to the extra gear they get by default. Company Masters are equipped by default with a Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Frag & Krak Grenades, Terminator Honours, and an Iron Halo while Librarians receive the Force Barrier and Hellfire (or Mindworm) psychic powers. They can replace or upgrade their equipment as the situation dictates, similar to the Farseer and Autarch from the recent Eldar codex.

Elites
Little has changed in this regard. Choices are still Deathwing Terminators, Company Veterans, and Dark Angels Scouts. Veterans and Scouts have the Combat Squad rule. I could not confirm the Deathwing's heavy weapon allotment.

Troops
Tactical Marines, plus the respective standard squads for Ravenwing and Deathwing. Tactical Marines benefit from the Combat Squads rule and are lead by a Veteran Sergeant by default.

Fast Attack
See Brimstone's comments on Fast Attack.

Heavy Support
See Brimstone's comments on Heavy Support. Rules clarifications from the latest Space Marine FAQ have been included (so Drop Pods do count as being immobilised when they land and cannot be repaired). Most vehicle costs remain the same.

So, there you have it. The Codex also includes pictures of the new models, most of which have already been leaked or seen on the Games Workshop website, and it is rumoured that the Dark Angels will play a starring role in the next Dark Stars campaign.

EDIT:

Addendum: NiteRabbit's Tactical/Fluffy Comments
Based on my impressions, the Dark Angels are very much still a codex chapter. The key difference lies, as it always has, in the fluff and in the variant armies that can be made using the Dark Angels army list. The Combat Squads rule makes the Dark Angels unique in a way that Stubborn and Intractable did not and emphasises the solitary and secretive nature of the Chapter rather than their unwillingness to retreat, even when faced with overwhelming odds. Their combat doctrine places more value on grand strategy, with lots of units acting independently and to be effective, Dark Angels players will now need to make a lot of decisions regarding coordination and target-picking, as individual combat squads will get blown out of the water. Having said this, it is still perfectly viable to play 10-man Tactical Squads but this does not necessarily utilise the Dark Angels to their full potential as an army.

The nature of the Combat Squad rule is such that it presents an interesting question for dedicated transports. On one hand, the transport is dedicated to the unit entry and can carry a certain amount of models, but with the Combat Squads rule, you can split an individual squad into two independent scoring units. Conventional wisdom says that because the rules specify models rather than units, you can mount two Combat Squads in a Rhino or Drop Pod, but it is equally possible that one squad may have to walk if you choose to deploy them separately. If you can mount two Combat Squads in a transport, players used to using mechanised infantry will have an interesting time with this list.

The Deathwing plays similar to the way it did in the previous edition, and the Ravenwing has been made a lot more viable as an army with the addition of Ravenwing Combat Squads. While still a challenging army, the amount of Land Speeder Tornados operating independently gives the Ravenwing the potential to be one of the harshest armies in the game to date and will chew through light infantry like a hot knife through butter. Admittedly this is balanced by the fact that they have little in the way of anti-tank options, but Ravenwing Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas certainly count for something.

Awesome news!

I'm definitely picking up this codex.

Hooray!

Even better news. I am picking up the codex too!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I struggle a bit with the different language, but I can't completely understand the Combat Squads rules. Does it mean that I can take a 10man tac-squad and split it into 2 units of five ? I can't really see the benefit, maybe I'm missing something from the translation ç___ç As far as I can understand (I'm probably wrong), that ability seems like this: " Hey ,look at my troops! I could have taken 2 units of 5 Space Marines, with a plasma cannon and a plasma rifle in each squad, BUT my special ability allows me to buy a single 10man squad, with a single plasma cannon and a single plasma rifle...and split them in 2 units !!!1!1 " The only benefit I can see is for transports, deepstrikes and drop pods...I hope I misunderstood the rule, could anyone explain it to me pls ? :°(

Cool cool. Think I shall pick it up as well. Yeah, I'm really not getting the combat squad rule at all either. if what was said above by "g3n3s1s" is true, what would the point of that be? Wouldnt it be better by buying two tactical squads or something?

The bonus to the combat squads I can see it that you gain two indipendently moving scoring units, also you can have a little leaneancy with unit coherency. I like these changes alot. I'm definatly picking this codex up, but dammit, I need the WH IG and this now... arge money!

I especially like the deathwing... but I hope the plastic droppondds are comming out so i can do the DW droppod army I wanted to do.... OH DEAR GOD, I hope I can do an all DW army, no info has come out about that!

Is there any info on the Allies rule?

Can Dark Angels now take allies?

g3n3s1s:

DA cannot get a heavy weapon in their tac squads unless they have 10 men in them. This means you can't have two tac squads of 5 with a plasma gun and a plasma cannon in each.

The reason the combat squads rule is so valuable is because it allows your squads to split into twice as many scoring units as they were before. True, both these new squads will be much easier to make un-scoring than the original, but the enemy will have to split his fire more and take more target priority tests.

Furthermore it allows you to split up the heavy weapon and the special weapon in the squad, letting you fire two good weapons at two different targets. This princaple is carried over to the rest of the squad as well. If both pieces of the squad are near a particular target, one half can shoot at it to see if they can take it out, and if they fail the other half can help out. But if they succeed the second half and whatever alternative weapons they may be carrying can find a different target.

All in all, the combat squads just make your army more efficeint, with less wasted shots whilst making it more difficult for your enemy to take you apart.

EDIT: Adrian, I haven't seen any info on the allies rule either, and i'm kinda psyched. Really hoping that I can finally bust out my eversor assasin with my DA.

Yea this is one of those SM chapters i don't like. Like Blood Angles and Black Templars, they will have rules like "Stand on your foot and sing a Gregorian chant on Wednesday, and you get an extra D6 Strength 5 attacks."

New models? Ok.
New Fluff? Ok.
Some variations from normal SM's? Ok.
Doing what they did with Black Templars? No.

The bottom line is, chapter codecies (plural?) should be like "expansion packs" for armies, not completely different with their own weak-fluff cheesy rules.

Were are my Orks GW? Your only a few editions late, so there is no rush, just keep churning out these SM chapters.

Good to see the new codex is out! my DA playing friend will be happy with this. :yes:

The two major advantages of the combat squads has been said.
1. double up on scoring units (great for table quarter and take'n'hold games)
2. doubles the targets the enemy has to shoot at.

Just an FYI, there are rumors that C:SM will get these combat squad rules as well. I see this as balancing the marines, keeping people from doing a minimum 5 man squad and taking a heavy weapony. Now you have to take all 10 marines to get a heavy.
As for tactics you can still have the two squad near each other to support each other. But again, it's two targets for your opponent to shoot at, and two seperate scoring units.

You can put a flamer in the half with the SGT who may have a powerfist. Then the other half is the heavy.

Thanx for all explanations, but the Combat Squads ability doesn't get me excited at all. A standard Ultramarine army can field up to 6 units composed by 5 men each, with a heavy weapon. A Dark Angels army MUST field 10 men in order to get 1 heavy weapon. This means that 2 units of Ultramarines have the chance to be equipped with 2 heavy weapons + plasma\melta rifle, while the same number of Dark Angels marines can only take 1 heavy+1 rifle (the ability of splitting fire at will is nice...but it's exactly the same as shooting with 2 different units). The Squads ability allows them to split...which makes them look like 2 different scoring units, but with fewer special weapons ._. It has some benefits with 4 units of 10 Dark Angels, as it allows to split them in 8 troop units which is a lot of scoring units, but that's more then 50% of the army during a 1500pts game and 5 men units will easily be forced to make some 25% tests. I think it could be nice with Cleanse and Purify + Drop Pods, place a melta and a plasma rifle in a 10 men unit, drop-pod them, shoot at a tank with the melta while rapid-firing some infantry with the plasma. On the whole I don't really like this...maybe after a bit of playtesting I may change my mind, but it's not one of those cool features that turns me on. When I first happened to read the new Eldar Codex I loved some Exarc's powers, the cheapness of War Walkers and when I got home and managed to read it carefully I yelled:"This army is soooooo mine". These new Dark Angels "uber" abilities are kinda boring, compared to others. I hope that Librarians and Heavy Supports will have some nice options\equipments\psyonic powers.
If Dark Angels characteristics will only be:

a) Chance of playing tons of termies (an army of 30 models ? plasma\starcannon\rending joy for the opponent)
b) An army full of Land Speeders (getting pwnt by any S4\S5 weapon)
c) Beeing allowed to split 10 men units in 5 men units, with the loss of heavy\special weapons

then I think I'll paint my marines in a different color ._.

Thanx for all explanations, but the Combat Squads ability doesn't get me excited at all. A standard Ultramarine army can field up to 6 units composed by 5 men each, with a heavy weapon. A Dark Angels army MUST field 10 men in order to get 1 heavy weapon. This means that 2 units of Ultramarines have the chance to be equipped with 2 heavy weapons + plasma\melta rifle, while the same number of Dark Angels marines can only take 1 heavy+1 rifle (the ability of splitting fire at will is nice...but it's exactly the same as shooting with 2 different units). The Squads ability allows them to split...which makes them look like 2 different scoring units, but with fewer special weapons ._. It has some benefits with 4 units of 10 Dark Angels, as it allows to split them in 8 troop units which is a lot of scoring units, but that's more then 50% of the army during a 1500pts game and 5 men units will easily be forced to make some 25% tests. I think it could be nice with Cleanse and Purify + Drop Pods, place a melta and a plasma rifle in a 10 men unit, drop-pod them, shoot at a tank with the melta while rapid-firing some infantry with the plasma. On the whole I don't really like this...maybe after a bit of playtesting I may change my mind, but it's not one of those cool features that turns me on. When I first happened to read the new Eldar Codex I loved some Exarc's powers, the cheapness of War Walkers and when I got home and managed to read it carefully I yelled:"This army is soooooo mine". These new Dark Angels "uber" abilities are kinda boring, compared to others. I hope that Librarians and Heavy Supports will have some nice options\equipments\psyonic powers.
If Dark Angels characteristics will only be:

a) Chance of playing tons of termies (an army of 30 models ? plasma\starcannon\rending joy for the opponent)
b) An army full of Land Speeders (getting pwnt by any S4\S5 weapon)
c) Beeing allowed to split 10 men units in 5 men units, with the loss of heavy\special weapons

then I think I'll paint my marines in a different color ._.

I think the issue is that you're looking at it from a points point of view, allow me to demonstrate the Choices point of view. Let's say we're playing a game where you can only bring 1 HQ and three Troops choices

Now, You made the case of Ultramarines so we'll stick with them. Yes, it will cost the same for both armies to have full squads of ten wiht both a heavy Weapon and a plasma weapon. This is true.

You also point out that the Ultramarines could bring twice as many weapons as the same
amount of points that the Dark Angels bring, again true.

But, from a choice perspective, this is what you get.

3x Tactical Squad (5)
Plasma Gun
LasCannon
300pts

Three Scoring Units? right?

3x Dark Angels Tactical Squad (10)
A)
Veteran
Plasma Gun

B)
Lascannon

xxx number of points (dunno the basic cost of the new DA)

This makes SIX scoring units.

With the same options and choices, Dark Angels have a 2:1 number advantage over the Ultramarines. Also, twice as many scoring units.

Now, this isn't fair as the point numbers are way too unbalanced, but lets now make the points even.

You'll have about six min/maxed UM Tacs, but THREE DA Tacs full kit. Plus, there are now the same number of Scoring units, but FEWER choices on the DA side.

Basically, this allows for tactical flexibility on the DA part. How many times have you been frustrated that you couldn't fit in that last Powerfisted squad for tacs cause you loaded on heavy weapon teams. Its happened several times to me. Now, with both options taking one choice, and operating independently, you can execute grand plans that will confound the opponent.

The same goes for assault marines, have the plasma pistols and Veteran PF go in one direction, and the meltabombs tank hunt. This would take two choices for other codex chapters, but only ONE for DA. You can fit in now those ravenwing bikes and speeders that you've always wanted to.

Tactical flexibility is the name of the Dark Angels game.

It definitely has some tactical uses, maybe I've been a bit too negative. What i meant was that if I take a random Codex from my collection I can find a specific feature\skill\unit that makes me want to play that army. Maybe when I'll have the chance to carefully read the DA codex I'll have the same reaction, but this Combat Squads rule is something which is quite nice gamewise, giving some flexibility and let all units work at 100% efficiency, but it's not so exciting.
Splitting 3 units of Devastators will be nice >_> That would really optimize their shooting phase (though this whole Combat Squad thing makes everything sooo vulnerable...5 men suck)

How does the Combat Squad rule work for for Pod-dropped Command squads ? I'd really like to place Librarian + 10 guys from the Command unit in a drop pod, but maximum size on a pod is 10...is it possibile to use Librarian+9 Marines as Command squad and split them in Librarian+4 and 5?

The Codex features wonderful artwork.

The best description i can come up with is it's a cross between the Eldar and the Tau codex's in layout, in the sense that it's alot of page flipping however there are nice paragraph descriptions on each and every weapon found in the Codex.

The concept of the new whirlwinds aresenal is a nice idea, althought i don't know of any race it would be affective on other than the ORKS.

The Shotgun's stronger, thank goodness, and FREE Krak grenades is a GIGANTIC plus in my book..

I can only hope that this codec is a template for the next C:SM...if so i'm truely glad, if not. Looks like i'll be playing Dark Angels in the near future.

Combat squads have to DEPLOY at the same time but not at the same location..

In other words, if you have a 10 man and want to devide it up into 2 five mans, and they take up and elite spot..

You would pay for 2 pods, Roll for ONE reserve....and scatter for 2 pods anywhere you'd like.

So you can effectively pinch the enemy on a single drop podding.

However you WOULD be paying for 2x the drop pods, and giving even MORE automatic victory points to the opponent.


With combat squads you theoretically with a maxed out army list 40 different units to target not including HQ.

Veterans are a must now, wow are these guys affective..
At Cheaper points than before and automatic terminator honours, with a even stronger sarge...Wow these guys will actually be an effective tide turner instead of a focused group.

I also like the sidearm ability...being able to take a bolter shot when you want instead of HAVING to either shoot or charge with a tac squad....


Dreadnaughts versitility is also a big plus...more weapons is always a good thing...
and cheap rhino's is great.

I think all the subtle changes that took place in this codec are FAN-F'ing tastic..It makes me excited to try them out.

WHOA hang on,

the shotgun is stronger?


They better let everyone have that, not just these silly DA's. Or I, and anyone else with an imperial guard/Ordos army, will be very upset...


As for the combat squad rules, from what you've all described, unless you play a lot of missions where your number of troops choices is heavily limited, then I can't see the benefit (outside of devastator units). Unless it's going to be given to all marine chapters, then it's a bit pointless, as min-maxing will still carry on. and besides, who wants to spend all their points on troops when there's deathwing and fancy whirlwinds to have?

Edit: brain just kicked in. can two combat squads ride in the same transport? because if they can, THEN they will be more than worth it.

In other words, if you have a 10 man and want to devide it up into 2 five mans, and they take up and elite spot..

You would pay for 2 pods, Roll for ONE reserve....and scatter for 2 pods anywhere you'd like.



this definitely suck...I hoped that 10 men could get off the pod, splitting their fire and playing like 2 different units....sigh

Combat squads have to DEPLOY at the same time but not at the same location..

In other words, if you have a 10 man and want to devide it up into 2 five mans, and they take up and elite spot..

You would pay for 2 pods, Roll for ONE reserve....and scatter for 2 pods anywhere you'd like.

What? I'm not sure that this is what is written in the codex - one of us has probably read it wrong and I certainly hope that it's not me. The way I interpreted the Combat Squads rule is this:

- All Dark Angels squads with the Combat Squad rule are purchased in units of 5 (Veteran Sergeant and 4 Troopers) or, in the case of Ravenwing Combat Squads, 3 Bikes.

- You then pay the points for an extra unit of 5, all of which count as a single 10-man squad or a 6-man Ravenwing Bike Squad for the purposes of the Force Organisation Chart

- During the Deployment Phase, you can decide whether your 10-man unit will set up as a single unit of 10 or two units of 5 and you can arrange your troops in whatever way you choose, allocate special weapons, heavy weapons, and the Veteran Sergeant. Each separate squad will be a scoring unit and worth victory points.

- Regarding transports, it says they "may carry up to X Space Marines", which, to me, implies that it can carry two separate squads, irrespective of size, as long as they number X Space Marines in total. The problem with the rule is when the transport is dedicated to that one particular squad. The decision to split your forces into combat squads is made at deployment. Therefore, is the transport dedicated to the unit entry as a whole, or to one of the Marine squads? The difference being whether or not they both get to mount up or whether one of them has to walk. Personally, I hope it's the former.

One more thing: why would combat squads take up an Elite slot?

"Hey,I'm a Dark Angels player!Look at my unique uber l33t feature! I can spend more then 200 points for a 10 men unit, give them a Drop-pod and only 5 of them will actually be able to get inside the pod!Hooray!"

Come on,it can't be like that, it would be just ridiculous ._. 2 pods for a single unit... .___.

"Hey,I'm a Dark Angels player!Look at my unique uber l33t feature! I can spend more then 200 points for a 10 men unit, give them a Drop-pod and only 5 of them will actually be able to get inside the pod!Hooray!"

Come on,it can't be like that, it would be just ridiculous ._. 2 pods for a single unit... .___.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm trying to prepare for exactly the kind of tack that rules lawyers might try to take. I just hope that it doesn't come to that.

wow i read through the codex yesterday and i have to say they look pretty dam good i like the idea of combat squads and the ability to purchase addons and stuff i also love the librarian psychic powers ^_^.

What? I'm not sure that this is what is written in the codex - one of us has probably read it wrong and I certainly hope that it's not me. The way I interpreted the Combat Squads rule is this:

- All Dark Angels squads with the Combat Squad rule are purchased in units of 5 (Veteran Sergeant and 4 Troopers) or, in the case of Ravenwing Combat Squads, 3 Bikes.

- You then pay the points for an extra unit of 5, all of which count as a single 10-man squad or a 6-man Ravenwing Bike Squad for the purposes of the Force Organisation Chart

- During the Deployment Phase, you can decide whether your 10-man unit will set up as a single unit of 10 or two units of 5 and you can arrange your troops in whatever way you choose, allocate special weapons, heavy weapons, and the Veteran Sergeant. Each separate squad will be a scoring unit and worth victory points.

- Regarding transports, it says they "may carry up to X Space Marines", which, to me, implies that it can carry two separate squads, irrespective of size, as long as they number X Space Marines in total. The problem with the rule is when the transport is dedicated to that one particular squad. The decision to split your forces into combat squads is made at deployment. Therefore, is the transport dedicated to the unit entry as a whole, or to one of the Marine squads? The difference being whether or not they both get to mount up or whether one of them has to walk. Personally, I hope it's the former.

One more thing: why would combat squads take up an Elite slot?

I'm sorry...I must have read his question wrong..

I was thinking he wanted to drop pod the 10 man squad already split..

IE. a 5 man landing here and a 5 man landing here..

There is no rules saying you HAVE to of course, i was just giving the stipulations on having to.

You're right, he can drop all 10 in one pod...and split the fire upon landing...

Considering the pod comes in in the movement phase, and the moement phase doesn't end as soom as the pod is dropped..Splitting the unit/disbanding a unit has never counted as a move..so aslong as it's made apparent/said..it's 100% legal..


and the Shotgun is now as strong as a bolter... gets to shoot twice and still has no AP

Edit....

combat squads wouldn't..unless they were an elite choice to begin with..

a 10 man vet squad split into 2 five man vet squads..takes up 1 elite choice for instance.


PS.....

Oh my god....I just can't get over the vet squads..the more i read the more i want.

If this is correct it will see the end of me collecting Dark Angels, the new Codex seems completely inflexible and totaly fluff non-sensical.

Cheerio to the Unforgiven.

actually

all these lists and changes..promote the dark angels shooty nature 2 fold.

not to mention their Deathwing can now give lysander and his goons a run for their money..

and the Raven wing is filled with nice surprises..

I mean how can you argue with a master of Ravenwing that asside from his rear armor.....has the same AV as a land raider

actually

all these lists and changes..promote the dark angels shooty nature 2 fold.

a) No they don't.
b) What shooty nature? a DA company has as many Assault Marines as an 'Codex' one, plus Terminators/Bikes are hardly ranged units in fluff.

not to mention their Deathwing can now give lysander and his goons a run for their money..

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but I heard a nasty rumour of no Veteran Skills (DA are newbs...) and a reduced Heavy Weapon allotment. Roll on the Lysanderwing.

and the Raven wing is filled with nice surprises..

Such as less flexible squad sizes? certainly the more for one FOC is nice, but hardly neccesary for most.

I mean how can you argue with a master of Ravenwing that asside from his rear armor.....has the same AV as a land raider

I hate special characters, especialy strange rules interpretations of them. Without knowing more about his rules/points cost I can't be as judgemental as I'd like but he's not high on my list of priorities.

a) No they don't.
b) What shooty nature? a DA company has as many Assault Marines as an 'Codex' one, plus Terminators/Bikes are hardly ranged units in fluff.

Perfect..because this allows for a shooty army, a assaulty armor and a counter assaulty army..

The entire concept of Combat squads is extremely fluffy..
they are the Asartes, they are the elite of the elite, they should be able to function in their own smaller units in order to achieve the main goal..after all they are the scalpel of the imperium right?

They still have all their rules pertaining to the fallen ETC ETC ETC, so that fits the fluff.

and you have to remember, this Codec should be laying the foundation for the next C:SM



Forgive me if i'm wrong, but I heard a nasty rumour of no Veteran Skills (DA are newbs...) and a reduced Heavy Weapon allotment. Roll on the Lysanderwing.
1- they are reduced in heavy weapons..
yes 1 Assault cannon per 5, however cyclones are cheaper.
Not to mention, now your terminator squads are 1 unit..

They arn't "assault terminators" and "terminators"

You can have an Assault cannon, a Sarge, a term with a pair of lightning claws, one with a hammer and storm bolter...

2- half of your deathwing squads(rounding up) can be deep striken first turn without rolling.

3- there were quite a few more rules i failed to commit to memory, but like so many other topics..i'll get back on it tomorrow after i read the dex once more.

4- in terms of the veterskillz, are you sure there arn't veterskillz..Not to mention Veterans cost a hellova lot less than they did in C:SM
by a LONG shot


Such as less flexible squad sizes? certainly the more for one FOC is nice, but hardly neccesary for most.
Less flexible squad sizes...Like the attached speeder you can add to your squad..or the attack bike you can add..which function as their own independant unit in the squad...meaning your what.....5-6(forgot #) bikes 1 attack bike and 1 speeder...broken apart can fire at 4 targets per turn....I think that's VERY flexible


I hate special characters, especialy strange rules interpretations of them. Without knowing more about his rules/points cost I can't be as judgemental as I'd like but he's not high on my list of priorities.His rules are along the lines of on a speeder he has twin linked HB's and twin linked AC...He has a land raiders fron and side armor...Speeders rear

on his jetbike a plasma cannon and a bunch of other goodies..

You're right, he can drop all 10 in one pod...and split the fire upon landing...

Considering the pod comes in in the movement phase, and the moement phase doesn't end as soom as the pod is dropped..Splitting the unit/disbanding a unit has never counted as a move..so aslong as it's made apparent/said..it's 100% legal..


So it's legal to place 10 Dark Angels inside a pod and split them after they disembark? Nice >_>


Oh my god....I just can't get over the vet squads..the more i read the more i want.

Dropping 2 small units of veterans can be really annoying for the opponent, but they need some upgrades in order to be deadly, and this makes them expensive. Expensive 5 men units can be dangerous for both players, but I must admit that 5 melee oriented+ 5 shooty oriented veterans getting off a single pod and playing independently definitely have a tough impact.

I'd really like to drop 3\4 units, Librarian+ Command Squad,Veterans and 1 or 2 other support units, after splitting they become 6\8 indipendent units and it will be hard to handle them all, especially if the Librarian can use Fear of Darkness twice.

So it's legal to place 10 Dark Angels inside a pod and split them after they disembark? Nice >_>



Dropping 2 small units of veterans can be really annoying for the opponent, but they need some upgrades in order to be deadly, and this makes them expensive. Expensive 5 men units can be dangerous for both players, but I must admit that 5 melee oriented+ 5 shooty oriented veterans getting off a single pod and playing independently definitely have a tough impact.

I'd really like to drop 3\4 units, Librarian+ Command Squad,Veterans and 1 or 2 other support units, after splitting they become 6\8 indipendent units and it will be hard to handle them all, especially if the Librarian can use Fear of Darkness twice.

Yes..the vets DO become costly, don't get me wrong..

but vets ALL come with Term honours automaticly figured in
so all normal vets get 2...the sarg gets 3...

The way the weapons can be handed out means you can have a heavy weapons man, AND a full on assault man..just like they used to as you said.

The fact is in a maxed out force org chart..

HQ asside..there is a potential to have 30 targets....

12 Troop targets
6 elite
6 fast
6 heavy


PS. I just remember, assault marines..can lose their jump pack...but they remain the same cost...but can now be deep striken in.

PS. I just remember, assault marines..can lose their jump pack...but they remain the same cost...but can now be deep striken in.

Assault Marines may remove their Jump Packs and Deep Strike (if they are still wearing them) in Codex: Space Marines as well, so this feature isn't new. If they choose to remove their Jump Packs, they will cost the same as a Tactical Marine but be equipped with a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword rather than just a Bolter. I imagine Dark Angels Assault Marines will still retain their Frag and Krak Grenades.

Perfect..because this allows for a shooty army, a assaulty armor and a counter assaulty army..

So they don't 'promote the DA shooty nature 2 fold'.

The entire concept of Combat squads is extremely fluffy..
they are the Asartes, they are the elite of the elite, they should be able to function in their own smaller units in order to achieve the main goal..after all they are the scalpel of the imperium right?

Indeed, so deeply fluffy that the 'Codex' chapters out there that DA are meant to largely resemble do not use it? SM function in small units anyway, that's why you're outnumbered 3/1 against most armies.

and you have to remember, this Codec should be laying the foundation for the next C:SM

Which, as C:SM came out so recently speaks volumes for GW's foresight. C:SM isn't sheduled for ages and is one of the newest out there.

1- they are reduced in heavy weapons..
yes 1 Assault cannon per 5, however cyclones are cheaper.
Not to mention, now your terminator squads are 1 unit..

They arn't "assault terminators" and "terminators"

You can have an Assault cannon, a Sarge, a term with a pair of lightning claws, one with a hammer and storm bolter...

I'm aware of much of this, however mixing Terminator types in a Squads seems to be of very limited utility for most purposes simply making them unfocused.

2- half of your deathwing squads(rounding up) can be deep striken first turn without rolling.

Unthrilling, so you can use the vague mysteries of teleport technology to deploy willy-nilly, or alternatively deploy close to your DZ with Tele-Homers-pointless.

4- in terms of the veterskillz, are you sure there arn't veterskillz..Not to mention Veterans cost a hellova lot less than they did in C:SM
by a LONG shot

Fair enough, but where do these Veterans come from in the background?the first company is the Veterans and they're all in TDA.

Less flexible squad sizes...Like the attached speeder you can add to your squad..or the attack bike you can add..which function as their own independant unit in the squad...meaning your what.....5-6(forgot #) bikes 1 attack bike and 1 speeder...broken apart can fire at 4 targets per turn....I think that's VERY flexible

Currently you can get Bikers in squads of 3, 4 or 5 not 3 or 6. As for attaching the LS/AB I play a Battle company with extras, I have the FA slots to spare if I wish.

His rules are along the lines of on a speeder he has twin linked HB's and twin linked AC...He has a land raiders fron and side armor...Speeders rear

I really don't care for SC's and one model does not an army make.

GW inflicted all of these changes simply to justify a £12 codex instead of a £4 short version, I would feel wonderful having bought the new C:SM at £12 only to have to buy another £12 one to continue using my army.

I would say the combat squad rule is not a huge advantage for objective (T&H etc) based missions.

Look at it vs the "standard" marine squad size of 8 (considered to be the best number).

With dark angels you only have to kill 3 marines to reduce one squad from being two scoring units to one.

When you kill five marines from a codex marine squad, you only get the VPs of four (half of the squad) while with the DAs you'll get the VPs of all five.

So while it is a useful rule, I wouldn't say it's a big thing really - it has some drawbacks in terms of keeping your opponent from getting VPs (as well as removing your lascannon or plasma gun, as appropriate).

(And DAs, like black templars, are just "different" from codex marines rather than "better" which I think is a good thing)

So they don't 'promote the DA shooty nature 2 fold'.

Indeed, so deeply fluffy that the 'Codex' chapters out there that DA are meant to largely resemble do not use it? SM function in small units anyway, that's why you're outnumbered 3/1 against most armies.

Which, as C:SM came out so recently speaks volumes for GW's foresight. C:SM isn't sheduled for ages and is one of the newest out there.


I really wouldn't be to sure on that buddy.


I'm aware of much of this, however mixing Terminator types in a Squads seems to be of very limited utility for most purposes simply making them unfocused.
Except for the fact that they can be broken into combat squads right? and since when is a P'fisted terminator unable to hold his own in combat? ontop of that, with the cyclone's being cheaper, that promotes the use of a smaller hand weapon so that the term still could get a +1 CCW bonus.
and i'm sorry..but the lack of heavy weapons does provide this option....

1 Assault cannon and some bolters aren't going to be very "end all beat all"...so when you deep strike them, you have something effective to shoot with when you disembark...and something even more effective to assault with come the next turn...That is assuming you have deep striken in a smart location.


Unthrilling, so you can use the vague mysteries of teleport technology to deploy willy-nilly, or alternatively deploy close to your DZ with Tele-Homers-pointless.
Oh did I mention all bikes come with tele-homers now and the scout rule..

In other words..

Scout rule.....24" move...

turn 1 deep strike at the bikes


Fair enough, but where do these Veterans come from in the background?the first company is the Veterans and they're all in TDA.
I know..doesn't that seem kind of odd?
It seems as if......those veterans were thrown in there just to clarify some veteran rules huh?
Like maybe hammering out some game mechanics for a new codex?


Currently you can get Bikers in squads of 3, 4 or 5 not 3 or 6. As for attaching the LS/AB I play a Battle company with extras, I have the FA slots to spare if I wish.
ok..That's fine..that's YOU...we're talking about the army as a whole, not the army as it applies to your needs.


I really don't care for SC's and one model does not an army make.
Nope, but one model can and does help, talk to chaos people who fancy their demons


GW inflicted all of these changes simply to justify a £12 codex instead of a £4 short version, I would feel wonderful having bought the new C:SM at £12 only to have to buy another £12 one to continue using my army.riiiiiiight

and yeah rork..like most rules though, there has to be both a drawback and an advantage..

a drawback is yes the opponent only has to kill 3 in order to get 1/2 the VP's from a squad, but you can still keep the other half...OR a Devistator squad for instance..

more often than not for me...4 ML's is quite the overkill...

Now that I can split their fire to two targets it's a little more effective..I can pop 2 tanks with one squad per turn as apposed to one.

and I'd personally use the combat squads to simply complement themselves..
a 10 man squad with a melta gun, and a lascannon..the las cannon 5 sit back and shoot at the squad/tank etc the 5 man melta is rushing for.

Yes..the vets DO become costly, don't get me wrong..

but vets ALL come with Term honours automaticly figured in
so all normal vets get 2...the sarg gets 3...

The way the weapons can be handed out means you can have a heavy weapons man, AND a full on assault man..just like they used to as you said.


That should be around 300pts for a 10 men unit, add weapons and a pod...it's more then 350pts x____x That's extremely point sinking >____< Must be dropped with care!

@drifter: all current bikes are not allowed to turbo boost during the Scout movement ,as they must try not to make noise to avoid beeing discovered by the enemy!

That should be around 300pts for a 10 men unit, add weapons and a pod...it's more then 350pts x____x That's extremely point sinking >____< Must be dropped with care!

well from what i remember.....
vets are their standard cost from the C:SM...x10

all including term honors so you don't have to pay for that..
all you have to pay for is the equip you want..which can be costly..let's see....maybe 100 for your close combat crap and ranged stuff..

that's less than 2 ven dreads

well from what i remember.....
vets are their standard cost from the C:SM...x10

all including term honors so you don't have to pay for that..
all you have to pay for is the equip you want..which can be costly..let's see....maybe 100 for your close combat crap and ranged stuff..


same cost as "standard" veterans but term honors included ? o__O sweeet ^______^


Drop-podded Librarian + Command Squad
Drop-podded Veterans
Drop-podded Tac
Drop-podded Tac
Drop-podded Tac

With Cleanse & Purify to max out melta\plasma rifles...maybe 2 units of Veterans if point limit allows. At 1500pts there's still enough room to field several useful things.

As a side note, I acknowledge that the Dark Angels do lose a lot of the flexibility that makes Marines so special in exchange for their advantages and special rules. While I dislike the fact that you cannot help but take squads of 5 or 10, I can live with it and besides; it gives me a reason to take squads of 10 Marines (which is the standard codex-recommended size as seen in Index Astartes). While you get some stuff, you pay for some stuff as well. It's a question of give and take; if you don't like it, play the normal Marine list and you'll still have loads of fun. If you're willing to trade several of the more flexible options (Traits, variable squad sizes, etc.) to have a slightly different play style, then Dark Angels are the army for you.

With Cleanse & Purify to max out melta\plasma rifles...maybe 2 units of Veterans if point limit allows. At 1500pts there's still enough room to field several useful things.

Please note that DA can't take traits from C:SM. I'm not sure if that's what you were refering to or not.

No..but as mentioned..
10 man is the index astartes mentioned preffered number, so in the sense of fluff and considering the DA codex does feature units and unit abilities that seem a little "out of place" in a Dark angels army.....aswell as that, the dark angels codex features a detailed rundown of every space marine weapon aswell as an illustration to go with it along the bottom of the page...It's almost!!! as if the C:DA is a C:SM...with dark angels fluff/spec units added...

and Term honors among squads such as tac squads (don't know if mentioned)..is free/included..

Sarge's are always vet sarges in a squad...


and traits like Cleanse would be quite useful when/if a C:SM revision hits the shelves

Please note that DA can't take traits from C:SM. I'm not sure if that's what you were refering to or not.

i really hoped they could use that trait ! >_< ok, no problem, i'll go with a couple of units with plasma+heavy weapon, and a couple of units with melta+heavy weapon ^____^

got a look at the DA merchandise today, and this is what i have to say

sprues!!!

okay, the sprues are literally 5 times as good as the black templars upgrades. among the highlights are about 6 power swords all with the diamond head visible on the helmeted DA captains sword (including one for a terminator, a mace, a special power fist, four or five chapter specific backpacks, lots of DA symbols including free standing ones, flat ones for vehicles, a tiny walking sword-wielding angel, and ten tiny DA insignia with only one wing for attaching to the corners of shoulder pads. DA themed panels for lots of vehicles (like kneepads for dreadnoughts,) and convo kits for tornadoes and typhoons. i should mention that you get two assault cannons in the kit, good for either one master of the ravenwing speeder or two tornadoes. also there is a storm bolter with a bayonet and a gilded anddecorated assault cannon, and a pair of hardcore terminator legs. there is no plastic part for making autocannon armed marines. there are around ten heads, with hoods, templar esque sharp noses, and wing swords, as well as a plastic techmarine head (with this head and some mech adept parts from the vehicles sprues, it will be easy to convert plastic techmarines, the reason for which will become evident...

so all this, lots of eronneous gear like censers, alternate webbing and bolt pistol holsters, dark angels themed bolters, and other random gear, and cloaks. the cloaks come attached to a pair of legs and a torso back, so that the fronts are interchangeable (which means a whole army of cloaked marines can have unique looks.) the sprues are a solid investment for anyone, and present literally limitless opportunities.

tactical squads

i can only add that tactical squads have compulsory veteran sergeants, and they have free power weapons. also, DA marines get their bolt pistols etc. entirely FREE.

Techmarines

instead of the traditional 'takes up an elite slot' way of fielding techmarines, a techmarine may be fielded for each vehicle, without taking up an elites slot. also, they have complementary artificer armour.

Transports and other vehicles

the drop pod is in fact a good bit more expensive, but has an additional special rule i did not investigate

Dreads are more expensive for a reason i didnt quite work out, but i think they do have access to plasma cannons

the razorback and rhino are MONUMENTALLY CHEAP, and some with complimentary smoke launchers + searchlight

the land raider crusader has also has a points drop and does not have the extra armour upgrade standard

characters

Sammael, master of the ravenwing - the bike is equipped with a twin linked storm bolter, and a plasma cannon. it gives sammael an adamantine mantle. he carries a master crafted power weapon (i may be wrong.) he can alternatively be modelled in a land speeder which has its armour values buffed up. imagine the biggest number you can think of (im not sure i can give stats away,) and that land speeder is equipped with twin linked assault cannons and heavy bolters. in his latter incarnation he is pictured in the DA book, converted from plastic.

Belial, master of the deathwing - equipped with a sword and a storm bolter. didnt interest me much, sorry all you deathwing fans

azrael - has the chapter banner attached to his back (similar to other chapter banners.) all his wargear is named. current model still in use, with a revamped backpack.

ezekiel - mind worm. period. fearless models are not immune to this power, but =I= lords and marneus are. it kills immediately. the fluff is that he developed the ability for assisting with interrogation, to rip a mans will from his mind.

scouts

are elites. shotguns have better strength, which now makes them a viable alternative to boltguns.

terminators

can mix and match assault and tactical. in my view, this justifies and makes up for the one heavy weapon. but rrealistically i think people who complain because they cant min/max on terminator heavy weapons should re-think what theyre saying. as far as fluff is concerned, in any chapter, ten terminators would have 0-2 heavy weapons between them. same in dark angels, and the logical progression is that half the squad gets half the resources. not to mention the moral and sporting matter.

my thoughts on combat squads

i've heard two general complaints about combat squads - firstly, they restrict flexibility as far as number are concerned, and secondly that they reduce the special and heavy weapons: marine ratio.

now firstly, combat squads is not an adjustment focused on making the DA army more powerful, its too powerful as is. its designed to add flavour, thought, and (what should be) most importantly, correlation between background and rules. the only reason reason these rules werent in the space marines codex is because firstly, not all chapters being represented by that codex are as adherent to the codex astartes and the DA are, and secondly, because they hadnt thought up the damn thing.

as far as im concerned having ultramarines and imperial fist (and so on) armies full of 6 and 8 man squads, despite the logical or tactical benefit, isnt true to the fluff, neither is preffering 2 tooled up five man squads to a single tooled up ten man squad, just because you get more tools. so i think combats restricting people from doing these things is a very decent, fair and solid move by GW, and the fact that it makes the army slightly harder to use only helps too.

and also, the other thing that is cool about combat squads, and i shouldnt even need to explain it, is assault squads.

my thoughts on how unbelievably overpowered this list is

im very serious. the more 5 man squads DA players take, the more free power weapons they get. and therell be alot. therell be alot of cheap rhino rushing armies. therell be a lot of troops-heavy armies, and the troops really do hurt. even when you try to balance a DA list by taking more troops, you just maximise the free gear you get. This is literally the worst list i have ever seen. it is so grossly terifying, no-one will play anything else. GW makes these potentially dangerous armies, and expects no-one to do wrong with them. the exact opposite will happen.


Need i mention the fact that the combat squads rule, the new prices and rules for vehicles, techmarines, veterans, characters and probably other stuff that hasnt hit us yet, makes every other SM publication look dumbly out of date?

tactical squads

i can only add that tactical squads have compulsory veteran sergeants, and they have free power weapons. also, DA marines get their bolt pistols etc. entirely FREE.


This is the first time I read about free power weapon o_o lol XD very nice


Transports and other vehicles

the drop pod is in fact a good bit more expensive, but has an additional special rule i did not investigate

Dreads are more expensive for a reason i didnt quite work out, but i think they do have access to plasma cannons

the razorback and rhino are MONUMENTALLY CHEAP, and some with complimentary smoke launchers + searchlight

the land raider crusader has also has a points drop and does not have the extra armour upgrade standard


Expensive drop pods are annoying >___< I was planning to playe 5 or maybe even 6 >_<
Same goes for Dreads, since I wanted to drop at least one ç_ç
Quite happy about razorback\rhino cheapness, but they cost a lot of cash x___x And it also depends how cheap (pointswise) they are!
The only thing you didn't mention is the Whirlwind, did he get a huge point cost reduction or is it quite the same a standard Space Marines one ?


scouts

are elites. shotguns have better strength, which now makes them a viable alternative to boltguns.


Too bad they're elite ç_ç

Wow hadn't heard about the free power weapon on the Vet SGT. That's very interesting. Great info here guys, thanks.

I was wondering if it would be OK for someone to post the total final cost of a unit for me? I'm wanting to build a Ravenwing army, and I want to know how many of the boxes I need to buy. I know we can't post individual costs of stuff, but if someone could post the total cost of the unit, and not get in trouble, I would appreciate it.

I want to know how much a full bike squad of all 6 bikes, the attack bike, and adding the land speeder with assault cannon would come to. No further upgrades, just all fully fleshed out bike squadron.
Thanks.

As a new player who began with DA about 8 months ago I'm not exactly thrilled about having to redo my just finished models with pistols and krak and frag grenades. Would the best way to do it be a holster and then one of each grenade on their belt? I can't seem to see any of the DA preview pictures showing how they do it.

As a new player who began with DA about 8 months ago I'm not exactly thrilled about having to redo my just finished models with pistols and krak and frag grenades. Would the best way to do it be a holster and then one of each grenade on their belt? I can't seem to see any of the DA preview pictures showing how they do it.

I would be fairly relaxed about all of that, if it's in the baseline codex but not on the model few people have a problem with it.

And although the B.P, Frags and Kraks are free (and i'm surprised by that) they're often of limited utility.

I got a chance to look at the Codex for myself today, and must confess to warming to them slightly. I'd have to look carefully at army selection but can actualy see myself using them.

If you're willing to trade several of the more flexible options (Traits, variable squad sizes, etc.) to have a slightly different play style, then Dark Angels are the army for you.
Well, they used to be the army for some people, including myself, until all these BS changes came down the line. That is why people have such problems with it. I know a dude that, no kidding, has 40 immaculate DW Terminators.....he bought all the Cannons from Battle Wagon bits and everything.....now they threw him a bone with the 1st round teleport but pretty much junked the rest of the army. For some people that played DA for their style of play, its hard when the style of play is changed out from under you.....
For me, it is no biggy. I'll still DP 5 squads of Marines.

:((I have no idea what he means by..the More 5 man's he takes the more power weapons he gets?

for your troop choice, you could only get a max of 6 free power weapons out of your 6 5 man squads...And I really don't recall power weapons being free...

Transports and other vehicles

the drop pod is in fact a good bit more expensive, but has an additional special rule i did not investigate

Dreads are more expensive for a reason i didnt quite work out, but i think they do have access to plasma cannons

the razorback and rhino are MONUMENTALLY CHEAP, and some with complimentary smoke launchers + searchlight



Drop pods yes, are more expensive..A Good +

dreads..more expensive because their standard armament is either
Assault cannon/ twin linked Autocannon and Multi Melta (maybe TLHB..not sure)
No they still don't have plasma cannon upgrades..but they do get TLLC as usual....

Their extra armor costs more than it used to aswell..

Razorbacks are cheaper.....WITHOUT extra armor...
WITH extra armor..they cost just as much...(maybe a tad more...) and yes....vehicles all get searchlights and smoke standard..

for your troop choice, you could only get a max of 6 free power weapons out of your 6 5 man squads...And I really don't recall power weapons being free...


I got a look at the codex this evening. Power weapons for veteran sergeants (which they do get as default) are an upgrade and cost the same as they do for any other marine sergeant.

And mysteriously, lascannon sponsons for predators are ferociously expensive. Hey, whatever. I'm not going to buy a DA army :tongue:.

Well, they used to be the army for some people, including myself, until all these BS changes came down the line. That is why people have such problems with it. I know a dude that, no kidding, has 40 immaculate DW Terminators.....he bought all the Cannons from Battle Wagon bits and everything.....now they threw him a bone with the 1st round teleport but pretty much junked the rest of the army. For some people that played DA for their style of play, its hard when the style of play is changed out from under you.....

I know how this feels, although probably not quite as bad as your friend.

I've got about 4000 points of dark angels (under the current old codex) just sitting around at home, I haven't touched them for a year simply because the new codex was coming out and I feared many changes would render new conversions useless.

For example, it annoys me that assault marines can't take flamers (I only took flamers in my assault squads, not plasma pistols). I cant remember, but I think my assault sergeant with thunderhammer/storm shield might be useless too.

After reading the new codex, however, I think I like the direction its taking. Sure, i'll have to scrap a few older models, but my god, the RAVENWING! I'll finally be using all those attack bikes/landspeeders i've got lying around unpainted. I'm going to be concentratiing on just on the fast dudes in black at first, I think.

well im back after having a look at the DA codex and im well inspired by it.

Im liking the new successor chapters for the Dark Angels
Im looking at those angels of corruption (i think) the silver power armour and red robed ones, im loving that colour scheme.

What im wondering is how many robes are in the DA sprue. Im just thinking that if thiers only a few robes in there then the silver power armour is just going to make them look more like Silver Skulls or something.

There are 10 robes in the box. If you look at the big army box they used those robes for some veterans and the devastators, actually they're a sprue on their own and you can use them as you wish.

well im back after having a look at the DA codex and im well inspired by it.

Im liking the new successor chapters for the Dark Angels
Im looking at those angels of corruption (i think) the silver power armour and red robed ones, im loving that colour scheme.

What im wondering is how many robes are in the DA sprue. Im just thinking that if thiers only a few robes in there then the silver power armour is just going to make them look more like Silver Skulls or something.

I like the added information about the Dark Angels successor chapters as well, though I was slightly confused when the codex said that they were Unforgiven (can someone confirm this for me?). However, I have always liked the colour scheme for the Angels of Redemption (half Deathwing, half Dark Angels) and this is probably going to be the scheme for my Marines.

The Dark Angels and their successors have always been considered the unforgiven. The new codex mentions that they still maintain strong ties with the Dark Angels.

I like the added information about the Dark Angels successor chapters as well, though I was slightly confused when the codex said that they were Unforgiven (can someone confirm this for me?). However, I have always liked the colour scheme for the Angels of Redemption (half Deathwing, half Dark Angels) and this is probably going to be the scheme for my Marines.

This is a reference to the Dark Angels past, they First and Second founding are referred to as the unforgiven, as they are the ones most closely tied to the "Fall" (so to speak). Each chapter maintains very strong ties to each other and all take equal part in the hunt for the Fallen.

So.. We are going to have a maximum of one tornado in a LS squadron. Elite scouts. Smoke launchers and searchlights on every vehicle. Extra armour for 15pts. Max. 5 termies, with one heavy weapon. Am i the only one who is thinking about changing army?

Those are not the only changes. You can't make an educated decision with only partial info. I'll admit, from everything I've read, DW is going to be more of a finesse army, and be challenging to play. But it should be for what it is, though. And that's only if you go purely DW, and don't use any other DA units, which is possible now. Also, the extra armor might be more expensive, but the rhinos and razorbacks cost less initially, and that's with the searchlight and smoke.

If you play DA or any of the specialist armies, and really enjoy the army and playing it, get the codex, read through it, and try it. If it sucks, then change, but give it a chance. Keep in mind there are some very strong rumors all over that some of these changes are going to be in a Space Marine redux codex. For example 1HW in termi squads, combat squad rules for power armor marines. This would mean no more min/max marine unit of 5 with 1 heavy. :)

This is a reference to the Dark Angels past, they First and Second founding are referred to as the unforgiven, as they are the ones most closely tied to the "Fall" (so to speak). Each chapter maintains very strong ties to each other and all take equal part in the hunt for the Fallen.

So the three new ones are Second Founding as well? This is news to me - I thought that the Dark Angels only had 3 Second Founding successors, hence my confusion.

So the three new ones are Second Founding as well? This is news to me - I thought that the Dark Angels only had 3 Second Founding successors, hence my confusion.

I am wondering if they are going to rewrite the fluff to open it up to have more Successors being Unforgiven then just the four.

Per old fluff there are only Three Chapters in the Second Founding and they plus the Dark Angels make up the Unforgiven as stated in the SM Codex.

So.. We are going to have a maximum of one tornado in a LS squadron. Elite scouts. Smoke launchers and searchlights on every vehicle. Extra armour for 15pts. Max. 5 termies, with one heavy weapon. Am i the only one who is thinking about changing army?

Where's your sense of adventure? Dark Angels still have a lot going for them - you just have to adapt to a different style of play.

Incidentally, I took another look at the new Combat Squad rule and have now concluded that Dark Angels Drop Pod armies are going to be just about the same as standard Marine ones - no more and no less. Still, it's great fun to use with Rhinos and other dedicated transports. I think I might also invest in a Land Raider Crusader to carry my assault units into Close Combat. Who knows? It could be fun.

Where's your sense of adventure? Dark Angels still have a lot going for them - you just have to adapt to a different style of play.

Ya, playing horde with the emperors finest. Thanks but no.

i think the models that i've seen look realy awesome. and the fact that almost all of them are plastic is great.

but the thing that i think it werid is the fact that they've taken away the special rules that made dark angels well... special... now they just seem like a normal space marine chapter running around in robes.

Normal sm armies at least can have 3 ls tornados in a squad...

I think they are special, at least until the new sm codex comes out. But where imho the sm troops needed a slight nerf, and the vehicles, especially the dreadnaught a huge upgrade, they nerfed the vehicles, and made infantry even better. (+ the infantry transport. Oh. :w00t:)

The dreadnaught (venerable for tank killing) was bad enough for about 170 points, now you wont be able to give him tank hunter skill, the extra armor will be +15pts, you have to buy searchlight + smoke launchers and the base dreadnaught will too, be more expensive. I'd rather take a land raider for that cost. That stands for predator as well.

Ya, playing horde with the emperors finest. Thanks but no.

Huh? The pontential for core terminators or bikes is a horde? The composition of DAs isn't that drastically different to normal marines, after all (compared to black templars).

Huh? The pontential for core terminators or bikes is a horde? The composition of DAs isn't that drastically different to normal marines, after all (compared to black templars).

Read my post above yours please. I mean that they made vehicles even worse, and infantry even better.
Terminators, bikes and landspeeders got nerfed too.

I mean that they made vehicles even worse, and infantry even better.

Sounds suspiciously like a trade-off to me ;).

But whatever floats your boat, my good man. You want to play Green Marines, that's your choice.

Just read this:
http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/space-marines/88893-meat-metal.html

After that, which do you think should have been upgraded to make it balanced: Meat or Metal?

Just read this:
http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/space-marines/88893-meat-metal.html

After that, which do you think should have been upgraded to make it balanced: Meat or Metal?

Neither, particularly. I've seen enough marine armies over the years to know that some people prefer a lot of men, while some prefer a lot of vehicles (with good results).

It wouldn't surprise me if they made the blood angels the "tank" marine army (with their supercharged engines, baal preds etc), so I hope you've got some red paint handy ;).

Red Paint makes tanks go faster! :tongue:

All jokes aside now, Dark Angels are still perfectly capable of playing loads of vehicles with their Ravenwing variant, and most tanks are no more expensive than they were in the original Space Marine Codex. If you take a look at the points cost for upgrades and then look at how much a similarly upgraded tank would cost in the original Space Marine codex, you'd find that they've only gotten marginally more expensive or stayed the same. It looks a bit silly when you first start out but you eventually get used to it. As for me, I'm really more inclined to try a mechanised Rhino force to bust through enemy lines and spew death in all directions, followed up by a secondary assault in which teleporting Terminators feature prominently.

I finally managed to find a new DA Codex to read :w00t:

Here are my impressions, some thoughts may have been already written, but in Italy the Codex arrived later and I also had connetion problems ç___ç

QG

Just like Eldar Codex, I don't like the low amount of upgrades. It's :"Take either the HQ as you read it, or give him Termi Armor"....I don't like this attitude very much, what I like from HQs is their chance to be completely customized depending on the army.
Librarians' powers are everything but exciting. The once-per-turn save is a nice bonus since it can be used in the opponent's turn. Mind Worm is ridiculous compared to Eldar's Mind War, and the flamethrower template with random S and AV is...uhm...a bit random! >_> Moreover there's only 1 Librarian available, with low leadership....(unless you take Ezekiel ,who's cool but costs quite a lot). I don't like this section very much >_<

Elites

Veterans are the only unit that can be taken in numbers between 5 and 10 (while other units have a mandatory 5 OR 10 size). They can have 3 Power Fists\Lightning Claws +___+ It becomes a quite expensive unit but they'll crush anything.
Dreads cost a lot >_<

Troops

The only troops choice is the Tac-squad. Some poeple on this forum wrote:"Omg the sergeant comes with free Termie Honors!!1!11!!"....no ._. A 10 men unit of Dark Angels cost EXACTLY the same as a 10 men unit+Sergeant with Termie Honors from the C:SM....the main difference is the equipment of the troops. Some things come for free, some cost a bit more, some are cheaper.

Fast

Land Speeders cost a lot of points...maybe I missed some special rules, but the cost increase seems really huge and I haven't found its reason. Assault Squads cost a little more in terms of equipment ç_ç

Heavy

Predators are cheap! VERY cheap. I wished theres was a point cost reduction for Whirlwinds 'cause I love them, but now Preds cost a little more then Whirls, and they all come with some extra equipment.

Transports:

Omg they're cheap +____+ Drop pods had a terrible cost increase, but Rhinos and Razorback had their point cost reduced by 30% circa, smoke launchers included!


The Codex is pretty balanced, some things disappointed me though. I was willing to play a Librarian, but their powers are not something that may have a huge impact on the game, apart from the random power (if you get lucky you can have a fire template able to instakill MEQs on a 2+ with no saves...but you may also wound them on a 6 and allow saves). I wished they could use standard C:SM powers. Some points increases seem pointless, I'll have to read the book more carefully.
Squad rules are nice. I was willing to play a 10 men Devastators unit and split them, but their point cost is nearly the same as 3 Vehicles, and they can't have Tank Hunters or be taken as Elite. It's a big bonus for Tac-Squads since 5 men with the heavy weapon can be left shooting while 5 men with sergeant and power fist can ride a rhino. Assault squads become very effective too.

But...

If you play e C:SM with some traits, you'll be able to play a nearly ideantical army, plus skills such as Tank Hunters, Furious Charge etc etc.
Think of a DA list similar to this:

Chaplain
Tac Squad of 10, split in 5+5, heavy weapon + fist
Tac Squad of 10, split in 5+5, heavy weapon + fist
Assault Squad of 10, 5+5, Power fist
Assault squad of 10, 5+5, Power fist
Veteran unit of 8, 3 power fists on a rhino
Predator
Whirlwind

This is approximately 1500pts. The same list for a C:SM army can be played with a couple of additional traits, and all assault squads would get Furious Charge, Veterans would loose some power fists but get Furious Charge, Tac-Squads would be exactly the same, Vehicles would loose some additional equipments.
The DA list get some benefits, such as the bolter pistol allowing to shoot before charge,or the triple power fists for the veterans etc etc, but a standard meat-heavy list is not extremely different compared to C:SM, while Black Templars\ Blood Angels all have deep differences.

I think this Codex lacks some charisma. I mean, most armies have a unit\hq that everyone loves. "HHAHAHA PREPARE TO FACE MY DAEMON PRINCE OF DOOOM !!!" , "Now you'll be crushed by my Death Company, for the Glory of the Emperor!", "My 10 Harlequins are noy going to charge you 500pts HQ units, do I have to roll the dices or will you remove your unit already?". A DAs player wil have to say:"Prepare to face my Combat Squads rule!!1!!12" unless he plays a Deathwing\Ravenwing army ._. Deathwing is funny, low model count but deep striking termies on turn1 is a nice trick >_> Ravenwing is a scary army, sooo much mobility, good firepower, tons of bikes (which means high R and good assault\fire) and should also be cheap money-wise.
The Ravenwing box will be a special edition that won't last much, I suggest to go to your locale game store and ask if they have enough for everyone, you may miss it!

you can't leave out that your entire veteran squad has a base 2 attacks. right?

so 3 powerfists with bolt pistols...
that's 9 fist attacks.....

plus the sarge's power weapon...there's another 3 that deny saves...

Now let's just hope I don't let you get the charge on me..

I can't remember if they have a sergeant. They're definitely an extremely powerful unit, but expensive and a bit slow >___< A rhino\Razorback isa mandatory,and this raises their cost even more. Three power fists, rhino etc etc will be nearly 300pts x___x

I recently saw my friends codex. I didn't have much time to look through it, so I was moslty paying attention to the RW stuff to see what it would cost me to do my idea for an army.

But what I did see seemed pretty balanced, and yet gave the army a bit of a different feel. I still think they changed the feel and difference of DA a lot from what it was. It seems they didn't want force people into doing the thing DA were "meant" to be, but rather changed points costs to encourage it. For example plasmaconnons and missle launchers are cheaper on things then trying to use the old lascannon. Full 10 man squads using combat squad rules, cheaper veterans with more options etc. I think the new way of fielding a DW and RW army, being able to have other units, is choice. Makes those armies more flexable and fluffy.

As for my RW army idea I figured out I can do this for 1740

MotRW
Chaplain with jump pack

x3 6 bikes with SGT, x1 plasmagun, x1 attackbike /w multimelta, x1 speeder

10 assault marines with SGT using powerfist.

you can't leave out that your entire veteran squad has a base 2 attacks. right?

so 3 powerfists with bolt pistols...
that's 9 fist attacks.....

plus the sarge's power weapon...there's another 3 that deny saves...

Now let's just hope I don't let you get the charge on me..

Actually only 3, including the sergeant, can have powerfists. But then another 2 can have plasma pistols, and all can have combat shields. Throw them in a rhino along with 5 or so tactical squads and you have a lot of rhinos moving up. Likely a second turn charge.

Hey there guys, long time Dark Angels player here. I'm going to tell you now: DO NOT BUY THIS CODEX; THE DARK ANGELS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED!! I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I am so upset with the new book, I can't even find the words to describe it. I purchased my book no more than 2 hours ago, and I am very upset with it. I got a Space Marine codex with rules that disallow me to do what I used to be able to. I can only have ONE, ONE assault cannon on my landspeeder squads. I don't get a jinx save anymore. I can't be stubborn. I can't make my HQ's very unique, with only 3 different setups. No more company standards. The only pluses I saw were the Vet squad, which I would have to say rocks, and the new Master of the Ravenwing...a 14 front and side armored Landspeeder...beautiful. Oh, and the ability to split up a 10 man squad. So, five amazing things about MY army that I loved, all taken away from me. Replaced with some things that are nice, but in NO way make me want to continue playing this army. It deeply saddens me to see my beautiful angels go to the dumps, to get the living crap beaten out of them. Games Workshop, it is time to start making this a game, not a way to make millions more because I have to buy new models and completely re-make my army, which isn't going to happen. I only hope they don't screw up the Space Wolves, because they are my other army. DO NOT PLAY THE DARK ANGELS. THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A SPACE MARINE ARMY WITH A FEW LITTLE FANCY THINGS ADDED, BUT BASICALLY STRIPPED OF EVERYTHING THAT MADE THEM UNIQUE. I am selling of the angels...maybe someone will want them, even though they have lost their souls.

EDIT - Just saw this same topic in the SM forum and agree that this dead horse should not be beaten. Disregard my comments.