This is only a very general rumour I heard recently from a GW employee, don't have any legitimate backing whatsoever but the idea seems plausible and is quite interesting.

The ork warboss will receive a stats change to give him the much demanded T5, however the major news is that he will be given a semi-monstrous creature designation. Therfore the warboss choppa will limit possible saves to 6+. I do not know if there are any other changes this is just what I heard and remembered.

If anyone has any specific information confirming or debunking this rumour I'd like to hear it.

I suppose it'll be the same old thing of, why does a gaunt not get any different save, but a striking scorpion will have its save modified. just doesn't seem to make sense...

I still reckon choppas should be a modifier rather than a set save limiter.

I generally agree with you but hey, at least the warboss can deal some more appropriate barely savable damage now. Assuming this rumour is true mind you. (Thats really harsh to Termies though, 2+ to 6+... Ouch)

I suppose in that case they'd be better off with their invulnerable save!

Its is harsh - I remember that story about the Space Wolves Terminator getting stood on by a Titan and living through it... These new warbosses must be the business!

Sure the Choppa thing makes sense; A Marine or Terminator (or anything else in heavy armor) is a bigger, less agile target and so is a bigger risk when fighting Choppas then a Guardsman or a Gaunt is. The Marine is still more resiliant in this situation (4+ > 5
+), but since he can't dodge as well as smaller, lighter targets, his armour gets cut down to represent that his armor can only help him so much against such a big weapon. The Guardsmen and Gaunts are more numerous and have better ability to dodge with lighter armor, so they wont suffer a penalty that will make them needlessly suffer more.

With Warbosses being considerably stronger than the average Ork, it makes sense that his choppa would be more dangerous because he can swing that thing a lot faster and with more punch, almost like a power weapon. I just hope they don't make it the same cost as a normal choppa. Warbosses with the current choppa are bad enough. :ninja:

You just presented the issue at hand all over again.
a Warboss is considerably faster than other orks...Meaning that the bonus "agility" of the tyranid/less bulky unit is of absolutely NO advantage..Especially when considering slower units.....It should be a modifier, I don't see how a faster ORK can have no affect on a slower iguard.

Well, think about it, armor save = armor save, not a dodge save(they DO exist... in the form of an invul.) Saying the tyranid's armor save is composed of its ability to dodge out of the way isn't correct, its how tough its carapace is.

Personally, I think instead of reducing armor to a specific target, it should give modifiers like fantasy. Perhaps, something like -2(or -3) to armor, but doesn't ever negate armor. Meaning, your 6+ is still a 6+(its already horrible, there's not much to chop through) but a marine, going to a 5+ or 6+ would really, really be painful. AND it would still let termies retain SOME of that bulky awesomeness that makes them the terrors of the battlefield.

I say just have choppas give a strength bonus like in WHFB, as Terminators are walking tanks, an axe blade would be of little worry to them. But yeah, a slight boost to the Warboss sounds fair, T5 suits such a large beastly creature. :yes:

Well, you got me there. It does seem like Terminators should be able to do a little better against Orks. As it stands, Ork players laugh when they see Terminators. Assualt cannons wipe that smile off of their face, but only until they get to charge and make you scoop your Teminators up and into the box.

A -1 to armour would alright I guess, but it still seems like its penalizing lighter armoured troops too much when they are fragile enough as it is. The whole idea is that armour can only pretect so much against a blow from a heavy weapon like a choppa and if Marine armour is cut down, Guardsmen plating would be like wet paper to a choppa.

It's true that armour saves are generally supposed to account for actual armor protection, but I think a certain level of abstract thinking is required in this case. Guardsmen aren't gonna stand there flat footed and take a blow on their armour plating when a rabid greenskin is swinging around his meat cleaver like a maniac. Even more for Tyranids who are likely to thrash around and recieve glancing instead of direct hits on their chitin armour.

Regardless of fluff explanation, we players just have to accept the black and white of the codex and do what it says whether it makes sense or not. Yes a Warboss' choppa should be stronger, but does it really need to be? Warbosses are hard enough to deal with as it is, let alone toughness 5 with an uberchoppa.

Orks have been ignored for so long, I say they deserve some love. But of course this change will probably get an appropriate poitns cost.

I suppose it'll be the same old thing of, why does a gaunt not get any different save, but a striking scorpion will have its save modified. just doesn't seem to make sense...

I still reckon choppas should be a modifier rather than a set save limiter.

modifier idea is reasonable, yet the designers are trying to steer clear from that WHFB feel.

i always thought of it as, well, a choppa gives you half a chance to live, or die. its more about your half chance, rather than the roll of 3+, 4+, 5+ etc.

a choppa swings, it will either take your head from your shoulders, or not.
either your armour will clang like hitting a streetlight with a cricketbat, or give way to the enormous pressure of the blades' dead weight. 1/2 1/2. 4+. thats how i imagine it:)

i think a -1 save modifier would be alot more fluffy and practical for heavy close combat weapons in general. compare a chainsword to a choppa. they have about the same volume and mass (i think?). on top of that, the chainsword has spinning blades all over it.

all of that, and the chainsword does not modify saves like a choppa, which happens just to be a half sharp hunk of metal on a stick. even nemesis force weapons, which grant 2+ strength and are WAY bigger than choppas don't modify saves. Honestly, at the very most, a -1 save modifier for the choppa.

about the warboss T5, i don't think it would work. doesn't he already have S5 and 4 wounds? thats significantly better than a marine commander. If you really want to give make him more durable, i would say either give up the S5 in exchange for T5, or give him feel no pain.

40K doesn't have ASM (armour save modifiers) in it anymore so it would take a miracle for GW to write a rule that does use ASM.

6+ might as well make it a power weapon, so that may be what GW are aiming for (without it *actually* being a power weapon).

They should just bring back the big choppa. That was a power weapon :D

Of course, Warbosses and Nobz with power weapons on the charge is probably the scariest thing ever created (how many intiative what attacks?!). I think bringing back the big choppa and giving it a save limiter of 6+ as opposed to 4+ would be just fine. I'm sure I suggested this a while back... meh

Could we move on from this whole modifier discussion?

W40k has eschewed modifiers (with very few, specific exceptions) since moving to 3rd ed.
2nd ed. was full of modifiers (for pretty much anything) and it slowed the game down horribly.

Therefore most rules use alternatives to modifiers (cover saves are a great example). Same thing for choppa. I certainly hope it will never be a modifier. A modifier may make more sense and be more fluffy, but it would take us one step closer from slow games in which you have to remember all possible modifiers for this or that situation.

The other reason why orks limit saves is because they really do not need to modify opponents' armor saves to kick their behinds (Guardians, IG, even gaunts). However, they had a really hard time against power armors. Hence that rule (as explained by Andy Chambers in the Ork codex designer's notes).

It's true that armour saves are generally supposed to account for actual armor protection, but I think a certain level of abstract thinking is required in this case. Guardsmen aren't gonna stand there flat footed and take a blow on their armour plating when a rabid greenskin is swinging around his meat cleaver like a maniac. Even more for Tyranids who are likely to thrash around and recieve glancing instead of direct hits on their chitin armour.

i think the dodging/thrashing/parrying all goes down in the to hit roll, with ws vs ws being the representation. so once the enemy bypasses your chance to avoid the hit, it comes down to your armor being able to take it, ie the armor save.

the explenation i'd give though is that instead of choppas cutting through armor, in the case of thicker armor they may act like maces and simply knock the sense out of the man inside the armor, where as if they're hittin 4+ armor or 5+ armor, they act as regular axes that can just cleave some armor.

I believe all of the complaints with the way choppas work is just with the 2+ armour saves. No one really complains that it shouldn't change power armour to 4+, its just way too effective against terminators. The problem should have been solved when they addressed the many complaints about terminators in general. No one (or very few) was using termies much so their answer was to give them a 5+ inv save. How many of us have rolled a fist full of 1s when making their terminator saves? I've seen 5 hormagaunts kill off 4 termies in one round due to bad luck. It is just so unrealistic. I think the 5+inv answer is still a little weak. I would have suggested terminator armour be a 3+ save just like power armour but with a reroll for failed saves. It would only slightly give a bonus. The save would go from its current 83% to 89% but be a little more forgiving of those "oh crap! look at all the 1s" moments. Choppas would modify it as normal to 4+ but the reroll would still be there resulting in 75% saves as opposed to the current 50%. Power weapons would still only allow the 5+ inv.

The one thing that makes me fine with choppas is the fact that if Orks didn't have them, Terminators would pose a big problem to them seeing as they have storm bolter, heavy flamers, and assualt cannons, the three Marine weapons that kill Orks the most. Without the 4+ choppas, Orks would have to send more boyz to nuetralize them for sure, while taking the massive fire that Terminators put out (as usual), and then would still need enough guys left to compete with the Marines.

I really like the way INQ put it... the choppa does just knock the sense out of them, so it makes sense that Terminators get dragged down in close combat with Orks just like everyone else. Imagine yourself in a big tin can in the middle of a brawling Ork hoarde... Not a comforting thought that despite all your armour, you're powerless to stom the huge butcher knives hitting all over you. Truthfully, with all the blows Terminators take from Orks, it sorta makes sense that Orks all hopped up on Waaagh can pound their way through.

All that choppas stuff aside though, I have a feeling that the Ork codex will be just as balanced as all the 4th edition codexes we've seen so far, and that they will end up having that "zomg broken" feel to them at first, untill people start to realize their weaknesses. I still have trust in GW when it comes to codexes, even though Dark Angels 'dex has shaken that trust a little.

The choppa rule only exists as a balancing tool versus marines.

Otherwise marines would simply sledgehammer their way through anything the orks lob at them (imagine what would happen if assault termies didn't fear large ork mobs).

Truthfully, with all the blows Terminators take from Orks, it sorta makes sense that Orks all hopped up on Waaagh can pound their way through.

This is true, shame S3 really doesn't convey the real strength orks have, but game balance is paramount.

I really like the way INQ put it... the choppa does just knock the sense out of them, so it makes sense that Terminators get dragged down in close combat with Orks just like everyone else. Imagine yourself in a big tin can in the middle of a brawling Ork hoarde... Not a comforting thought that despite all your armour, you're powerless to stop the huge butcher knives hitting all over you. .

...as the anti tank Krak missiles hit you between the eyes and bounce off harmlessly. There is just no fluff explanation for the way choppas work. I find it hard to believe that choppas hit harder than a Krak missile, or even have more pentrating power than a chainsword for that matter, yet the Krak missile has very little effect. Its just a rule. They aren't going to change the way choppas work so we will just have to live with it. It is actually the only rule that I completely disagree with and our gaming group house rule is -1 to all armour 3+ or better. I play orks by the way so I'm no SM apologist.

(no offense intended to anyone, just speaking my mind)

I think this thread might have wandered a bit.

The reason choppas work better against heavier armour is because orks believe that they will. They think to themselves "he thinks he is so fancy with his big suit of armour, im gonna smash him good with me mighty choppa!!", whereas when they just see a normal guardsmen etc with a flak jacket, they are confident that they will be able to kill them anyway, without the benefit of a big CC wep. Everyone knows ork technology only works because they believe it to work, therefore when they fight things with armour they believe that it is inferior to good old ork brutality.

I hope i made this point clear, kinda hard to convey it thou. Same with any ork weps or armour, like super stick bombs, they are just a bundle of normal stickbombs glued together, but because the ork believes they are more powerful, they are in game terms.

Thanks
Zezza

Thats a good point! I hadn't thought of that. The whole Ork psychic thing which makes them better than they actually are...

Still, I don't know whether the rule actually represents this very well. I know where you are coming from though.

I don't play 40K anymore, but I thought I'd just add that is seems the problem of the choppa is that players are trying to tie the rule into the fluff, which in most cases doesn't work.

Really, I just wanted to comment on this statement:

Could we move on from this whole modifier discussion?

W40k has eschewed modifiers (with very few, specific exceptions) since moving to 3rd ed.
2nd ed. was full of modifiers (for pretty much anything) and it slowed the game down horribly.

No doubt. 2d edition battles took so long because each modifyer was unique. I remember a bolter having a -1 to hit at close range (1-12") but a +1 to hit at long range (13-24") whereas a pistol had a +2 to close range, and a -2 to long.
Also for saves, all the modifyers were different.

Fantasy has a good implementation on save modifyers because it's streamlined. Move = -1 to hit, long range = -1 to hit, etc.
Str 3 = -0 to armor save, Str 4 = -1, Str 5 = -2, etc.
With special rules interjected here and there to make exceptional weapons stand out (black powder weapons are Str (-1 armor) with Armor Piercing (additional -1 to armor) to represent it's a bullet rather than a crossbow bolt.

That's what 40K should strive to do. Maybe in an advanced ruleset, so the newbie kids could still play easy mode.

why not just make it rending ?

Rending would be too powerful. An entire army that has access to rending with each model having 4 attacks on the charge? That would be insane.

Some I think(or at least hope) Adeptjosh was joking..
you WERE joking right?
I Think Choppas are just fine as they are, a Warboss, and just the Warboss and/or big Meks, should have access to power weapon though, or even just a burna..
As burnas count as power weapons if they aren't fired as a flamer that turn, he could use that..
Seems a lot less cool though

Personally, I think that they should just make some kind of power weapon, that only th warboss can use, I mean come on...EVERY OTHER RACE has one...you think that the warboss (w/first pick of the stuff) would eventually pick up one from a dead marine or something...

And aboot the terminator querie, I think that people should give orks a break. They are hard to play, and they need some kind of advantage... I mean, come on, your termies can just paste them all over the walls before they get there. And when they do ge there are like 5, maybe 7 left...

Orks are people too...sorta...


-The God of all Machines

Tau dont have access to power weapons.. Except 1 special Character..
Strenght 5 power weapon with 5+ attacks on the charge would be nice

Yes ... I was joking, rending would be sick for all ork boys. What if the humble choppa worked like the nemisis force weapon of the grey knights, and it gained special powers in the hands of the nobz.
on a related topic, I don't think the actuall stat lines need to change for all the orks , but the warboss either needs a T increase or gets to be immune to insta-kills ( either in special power or wargear ). I sincerly believe the ork profile is fine but the special rules are rather weak.
What If all orks get F.N.P. ? It would definatly help out the fluff side.