Theory about the 2 lost primarchs & Leman Russ. Searching for Citations! Please Help! - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Theory about the 2 lost primarchs & Leman Russ. Searching for Citations! Please Help!

    Hello All,

    A) I don't know if this is the right place to be posting this, I chose literature b/c the theory I'm about to post comes from a select few lines of a select few Black Library books, and I'm trying to pin them down. If this is in the wrong place, apologies, please direct me to the right place.

    Also, this "theory" of mine may have been discussed in greater depth elsewhere, but my main purpose here is to try and pin down the lines / pages / chapters / books providing such evidence, which is why I think this is the place to do it. Plus, since switching to an e-reader, it's hard to get an exact page number down... maybe Chapter, Paragraph, Line is the way to do it if you too use an e-reader.

    C) This concerns the 2 "lost" primarchs, which, some have told me, it's awkwardly taboo to even discuss among fans with absurd theories, as GW / BL tends to make it seem that way in their literature / fluff... but I'm going to do it anyways b/c this is a forum and these are the types of places where fans can post what appears to be completely non-sensical b.s. and have other fans agree or call them crazy... so here goes!

    Theory: The 2 "lost" primarchs were executed personally by Leman Russ for this or that offense... dunno why they were killed, for now I'm just arguing that they were, and that Leman Russ swung the axe.

    Over a couple of years of reading BL lit I've come across more than one line that has suggested this possibility, and would greatly appreciate anyone helping to pin down those lines and books, as I can't quite clearly remember where I read them all, and will probably be pretty vague in my estimation of where I found such passages.

    Reasoning: Across several different books, I have come across a number of isolated passages / lines that suggest the following. Whatever happened to the lost 2 primarchs, the Ultramarines numbers swelled after each incident, suggesting that the 2nd and 11th legions' marines became 13th legion marines following the official "loss" of their primarchs. Whether this is b/c 2+11 = 13 I dunno, maybe they just wanted a simple explanation as to why Guilliman's legion was so damn big. (book / chapter / page citation needed - this may have been in an audio book) Additionally, Primarch Leman Russ and the Space Wolves have been sent to punish other Primarchs before, namely (or rather, not namely) the 2 unknown primarchs.

    I believe it was in HH Prospero Burns, during the Council of Nikaea scene somewhere, it is postulated that each primarch was designed with a specific purpose, and that Leman Russ' role, and thus the role of his legion, was that of executioner. (chapter / page citation needed)

    Elsewhere I have come across small lines suggesting that when a Chapter / Legion / Primarch is to be punished it is the Space Wolves whose job it is to perform this duty. I believe twice in the books I've read within the last year I've come across such lines... very isolated and very obscure... I believe one specifically went like "Have the Wolves been mobilized?!" in response to someone discussing a Chapter or space marine force going rogue / rebel / chaos... and someone being (book / chapter / page citation needed)
    - specifically I managed to find one of those lines I'm thinking of:
    - Outcast Dead, Chapter 9, "It means that the Wolves will be loosed again." implying that the Space Wolves have performed this duty before.


    GW / BL has made it appear that the reason Leman Russ tried to kill (/sorta-kinda actually did kill) Magnus was that the Emperor sent him to Prospero to bring him to Terra, and Horus manipulated Leman Russ' hatred of Magnus and sorcery to convince him Magnus should be killed. It always puzzled me that when the Emperor says one thing and Horus another that Leman Russ was a little too willing to act upon the Warmaster's word... then again, if this was a duty he'd performed twice before that might explain it a bit more. (this is based on the general fluff we've all been reading for years)

    In another novel there was a line, and I cannot remember if this was in Thousand Sons or First Heretic (or elsewhere), that Leman Russ' was quoted by another as having said something along the lines of "they had lost two brothers already, perhaps this third one can be saved..." or something to that effect - it may have been in regards to the punishment of Lorgar at Monarchia in First Heretic or towards Magnus prior to the Council of Nikaea, I can't recall which. (chapter / page citation needed)

    So that's all the evidence / reasoning I can recall having come across, and as I said, I really don't remember where most of it's from - below I have a list of all the books and such that I've read in the past couple years where I believe they would've made such references.

    - Thousand Sons
    - Prospero Burns
    - Battle of the Fang
    - First Heretic
    - Outcast Dead
    - The Lightening Tower (audio book, discuss the two lost primarchs briefly)
    - Age of Darkness
    - Battle for the Abyss

    Now I haven't read any of the M41 Space Wolf novels, but I suspect they'd remain generally light on the subject, as well as the M41 short story collections. If anyone whose read the above recognizes the passages I've outlined, and knows where in which books they are I'd greatly appreciate it - if you wish to discuss the theory, or if you know where the theory has been discussed before in detail, feel free to do so as well, though this might not be the proper forum for it - as I said, priority: page numbers / chapters / books.

    Thanks!


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  3. #2
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    Firstly, this might actually have been better in General Discussion or something - if only because the Books and Literature section isn't terribly well frequented at times. You can always message a mod if you want it moved, but it's probably fine here.

    Secondly, because I happen to have a copy of Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons, I may be able to help with some of the references.

    Thirdly, massive spoiler warning? I'll try and be vague but if you haven't read the books you may want to steer clear of this topic!

    Prospero Burns;
    Chapter 8, page 243 - A discussion about the purpose of the Sixth Legion. No specific mention of this role being applied to other Primarchs, though.
    Chapter 10, page 320 - Leman Russ revealing his role may be to take up arms against another Primarch. No real detail of whether he's done it before, though.

    Chapter 12, page 382 to 389 - A somewhat lengthy passage where Leman Russ attempts to convince Magnus to surrender. There might not be anything useful for your theory in this one, though, as there doesn't seem to be any hint of Russ being sent against any Primarch in the past.

    Chapter 14, page 429 - An interesting comment on this page. In relation to the conflict between the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons, someone remarks 'a precedent has been set'. To me that implies legions fighting one another hasn't happened before - but I guess that says nothing of a Primarch executing another of his kind.

    I think I've spent enough time going through Prospero Burns - I might flick through A Thousand Sons later, and come back if I have anything useful.

    To be honest, though, there's a much greater conspiracy hinted at (or perhaps even directly revealed?) in Prospero Burns. I can't talk about this without spoilers, I don't think, so I'm going to try and grey it out (Highlight to read)

    In that section in chapter 14, something calling itself the Primordial Annihilator seems to claim credit not just for turning the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons, but for the entire Horus Heresy. It also implies such a plan has been a long time in the making - even going so far back, perhaps, to the original formation, scattering, and perhaps execution of two Primarchs? Doesn't really contribute much to your Leman Russ theory but, I guess I'm just saying the reasons for the missing/executed Primarchs may have something to do with this Annihilator creature.

    End spoilers, and end post I guess seeing as I'm out of ideas and helpfulness for the moment...
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    Thanks Deadstar! And good point - I didn't even think to check if I'd included any spoiler alerts! Upon review it doesn't seem as if anything I included wasn't pretty much already known based on GW fluff alone, and I really just tried to be as specific as possible with my quotes so as not to ruin the context of the passage.

    If I do eventually require more help gathering my citations I may well consider posting in General Discussions, I mostly just didn't know where to put this at all and didn't want a mod telling me I was in the completely wrong area / deleting it right away.

    For your Chapter 14 passage I think it still might fit, the idea that legions haven't battled one another might serve to indicate why the "Ultramarines' numbers swelled"... god I wish I could remember where I came across that little tidbit.

    And the PA that you spoke of in your greyed out area is discussed in Legion as well, if they ever go back to it, it might serve to help / hurt / have nothing to do with my theory, but good lookin out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schizm86 View Post
    And the PA that you spoke of in your greyed out area is discussed in Legion as well, if they ever go back to it, it might serve to help / hurt / have nothing to do with my theory, but good looking out.
    I'm not sure it matters all that much in respect to your theory - it would just give a reason (or additional reason, perhaps) for the Primarchs to have been killed, if that makes sense.
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    Additionally - most recent piece of evidence I've read I just last night came across in Know No Fear... which btw is Abnett's best work to date... started a little slow, but picked up about a third of the way through and is blowing my f-ing mind! Ok - so SPOILER ALERT... a tiny one, but as this is the most recent HH book I really don't want to ruin any single one facet of the book for those who've not yet gotten to it. See greyed out area below for the next piece of evidence as to the above theory.

    This book uses it's own labeling structure for chapters etc - which I'll follow since I use an e-reader and have no idea what page this exists on in the physical copy:

    SYSTEM//KILL
    Chapter 3
    [mark: 01.57.42]
    - about 2-4 pages in - see greyed out area below if you'd like see the quote / don't care about having an amazing book spoiled for you even in a tiny respect

    In the conversation between Guilliman and Lorgar, Guillman begins to howl curses at Lorgar and says "Our father should have left you out in the snow at birth. He should have fed you to Russ. You worm. You maggot." - another incredibly suggestive line that when a primarch goes wrong... Russ is the final solution.

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