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Sorry, not my usual catchy title, but I feel it gets the point across. I really do need help from you guys. Anyways lets get straight to brass tacs shall we?
My list looks like this. Roughly between 1000 to 1300 pts. anything that can take a command group has a full command. Wargor naked, lv. 2 Shaman w lore of beasts and a power stone, 10 man Herd, 2 tuskgor chariots, 10 hounds, 20 Bestigors, 3 Minotaurs w/ great weapons, Razorgor, and sometimes a spawn or two.
My setup looks like this. Bestigors w/ wargor in middle and beast herd w/ shaman next to them. A unit of 10 hounds on either side of them and the 3 minos somewhere inbetween. The chariots go on the far flanks and the Razorgor and spawns if any accompany them.
I tend to deploy my Bestigors in front of my enemies hardest unit and use the shaman to cast Bears anger on my stock Wargor using this as one of my hammer units. My other hammer unit is my minotaurs wich I toss at my opponents seacond deadliest unit. I use my hounds for screening and my chariots for both flanking and helping chase down units by joining combats with my ranked units.
There are 3 things that mainly keep killing me.
Number one by far is that I can't pass a bloody leadership test. I simply can't do anything with an army that wont do what I want it to do. Doo doo
Number two is lack of potency. Maybe I'm mismatching my combats but I can't seem to just punch through and decicively win combats, even when it seems like I should. My units(even my hammers) either bounce off the enemy or get stopped and eventually grounded down. What gives? I thought the Beastmen were supposed to be close combat.. well... Beasts!
Number three is shooting. Between the damned elves, and the damned dwarves, and the damned skaven I can't even make it into a damned combat much less win if I make it with what little I have. My Minotaurs, like all good apex predators, are the first to go. Then the rest of my army only needs minimal fire before panic spreads through my ranks faster than the clap in 'Nam.
And thats pretty much all that there is to it. There you have it. I'm seriously at my wits end here. I'm sure there is an actual metric buttload of stuff I'm doing wrong here begining with army selection all the way through deployment strategy and tactics. And that is why I'm beseeching your help. What should I do LO? what should I do?
" Are you gonna bark all day little doggy,
or are you gonna bite? "
1. Your wargor should at least have heavy armor, a great weapon, and the Ramhorn Helm. If you can afford it, give him the Gnarled Hide gift.
2. I'd give your bray-shaman the Hagtree Fetish, instead of the power stone.
3. You should at least have Gor units about 15 models strong, though I prefer 20 models. Take two such units to be your two troop choices. Small units of 10 just get blasted through.
4. Either split your hound unit, or add another, to screen both your chariots and minotaurs from missile fire.
5. At your current point level, I'd cut down your bestigor unit to 15 or down to 10, then stick it between two units of Gors.
6. I'd rise your minotaur unit to 4, and at least give them a standard. Including a musician will help them rally.
7. I wouldn't use a single Razorgor, though that's just me.
8. You can never go wrong with spawn
#1 - I'd stick a BSB in your force. Keeping your units within range of your general/BSB will do wonders for your leadership.
#2 - Your units are rather small, so upping their numbers will help greatly. Also keep them close to your general, it will help with those primal fury rolls.
#3 - Use ambushing units/ungor raiders/harpies against 'shooty' forces. It's hard for an archer to fire while being torn apart by a harpy ;D
All in all, it's rather not a bad list. Just change a few thing here and there, and tailor your force against the opponents you'll be facing.
Hope I helped
Last edited by MaleOpener; February 28th, 2010 at 03:19. Reason: small changes
Winning games off warhammer depends big time on your enemy's list and how well you've kitted your own list to counter his. Try to figure out what kills you and remove those weaknesses from your list. Like Maleopener said, take harpies against cannon/boltthrowers (non dwarven) or try to ambush them with minimal units (10 man strong, no command let alone perhaps a single musiscian)
Give your General some armour! LD is very important in this army, so try to keep that source of high LD for your army alive.
Bestigors really aren't that good in units of 20. I'm sure you already noticed they die pretty fast, and there always strike last doesn't really help. Try to split the unit up in 2 x 10 groups. I use mine in 2X6 ranked unit, only for flanking. Everytime they kill at least 4 rank and file enemy's with there hatred str 6 attacks. Don't give them a banner if you use them in small setups. If they die, the enemy gains 100 VP. If you don't give them a banner, they can still steal enemy banners, but the enemy will never get 100 VP for these.
Also invest some points in raiders or dogs. If you are playing a combat army, you will need to bait enemys. Small units of 5 raiders, or dogs are great for this. Gors won't really win combats on there own so try to lure enemy's to a poisition where you can multi charge or flank charge them.
Hope this helps a bit. Good luck!
I think your spending too much pts on your bray, in low pt games 1 wizard will never get a spell off and only useful for dispel. I use Bestigors to basically shield a Bestlord or wargor, other than that they suck. If i field a solo squad of Besti's I march em right up to my enemies face and try to get a good charge off.
I find giving minotaurs a Gorbull and trollhide armour really helps.
Plus giving a Wargor the Gnarled Hide, Enchanted Shield and a Ramhorn with heavy armour will own in challenges and catch ppl off guard. I would try and max the number of heros we get since ours are pretty cheap, and have some decent stats. Plus giving each squad a 1 higher LD really helps!
In terms of anti shooting, Raiders, Ungors as human shields. Stick anything in front of your good units to stop the bombardment. I have found so far that worthless Pumbagor sucks and i hardly ever field it.
Stop fielding full commands, every flag is 100pts and Foe renders etc are XX pts of waste for 1 attack. I would just give units a musician, and i hardly ever do that.
In low pt games, warhounds r worthless since most people wont be marching and you dont need to capture table edges with them. If keeping them, get them to 5 each.
I can make you a basic list i use if you still need questions or post your army and ill give better feedback.
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
Wouldn't removing banners affect his ability to win combat? I could understand if the goal was to use supporting units to flank, but with horde armies where you are outnumbered, getting at flanks becomes difficult. How does one make up for losing the banner when combat is an issue even with the banner?
I agree with making Bestigors smaller. With greatweapons and on the charge, they should be able to win combat, especially on the flank. Also you will benefit from the use of flying skirmishers against shooting units. Mobility always add options to an army.
Last edited by Ebon Hand; March 3rd, 2010 at 19:23.
"Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the conquest of it." -Anon
Every captured banner is 100 VP for your opponents, does matter the flag or squad. Example: Your enemy runs through Ungors, killing a squad around 50-70pts, then capturing the flag is an extra 100pts. You have given them more pts in flags the guys.
My advice i see is either a sqaud is designed to run through your opponent, huge(20+)man squads, or a squad has really good saves and decent LD. These are the only reason you should field a banner. Crappy Beastmen with 7 Ld, no saves, and low combat potential is what your opponent is looking for when he see's your army.
I only give Flags to Mino's with a hero, or my Generals Squad.
To reply to Ebon Hand question about banners, 1 extra combat boost isnt going to win you a combat with Beastmen. You need to hit them hard and gain flanks to gain your extra CR. Most of the time in Fantasy, there is no fair battle, its heavy tipped to one sides favor because you have spent the time to get it like that. Thats what the game is about, out maneuvering your opponent and trying to control 2/3 other phases. Since low pt game magic is not really a threat, Control Movement and Close Combat and you win.
MY Point, 1 CR from a banner isnt worth 100pts, if your losing combat by 1 pt and its killing you, then you need to rethink the way you play and learn to get the numbers and wounds to be on your side.
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
I'd have to agree with some of the above posts. A lot of the beastmen lists I've seen have contained 0 banners. Too often, they are a liability. Not to mention, if you plan on doing any baiting on fleeing they are next to worthless since you drop them when you flee for the first time. If you're going to continue to field Gors in blocks of 10, you should consider dropping the Bestigors so you can add MORE of those Gor units. With more of them, you can pick and choose your combats a little better.
There was one post two that talked about the value of 1 level 2 caster. Think of it like this. Your opponent gets 2 dispel dice base. Lets say they take no magic defence at that size game. If you take 1 lvl 2 caster you have 4 dice to their 2 dispel. So (on average, I know this is a gross approximation) your first two dice are wasted "powering through" their two dispel dice. You have effectively 2 dice to cast with. If you take 2 level 2's, now you have 4 "effective" power dice. That's why a lot of lists have scroll caddies (a level 1 caster with 2 dispel scrolls). Magic at low levels is hardly worth taking. You either need to overwhelm the magic defences, or leave it at home.
I think you may have lost to my Skaven once or twice, and if you're the person I think you are head over to http://subpargentlemen.com and sign up for the forums there. We have some Warhammer discussions on there and I think one of the Beasts players may start coming to the TM on Sundays. He might be able to help you out.
Much obliged guys, I appreaciate all the feed back. Rest assured that I am soaking up all this tactica like a large and very beastlike sponge. I'll lose the banners and reconsider the magic, but why the bad press on the Bestigors? I rekoned they were good fighters and thus worth taking plenty of. BTW, what is a pumbagor?
Also, to warlord Krittik, I have no Idea who you are, so just keep your doomwheel away from Kraagtar and his Beasts, kapich ?
" Are you gonna bark all day little doggy,
or are you gonna bite? "