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G'day my fine lords and ladies; I hereby present this thread to you all for use in the playing of Beasts of Chaos. This is to be used in whatever way you all seem fit but the idea I have behind this is...
A tactica type thing. All generals are welcome to post here any tips, tactics, unit break downs, do and don't of the armies, army themes, colour schemes, conversions and all list break downs (note - not army lists but maybe a skeleton list used to build off etc)
Well that's the idea, I hope it works. I will be watching these and any abuse of thread or things I decide that are not to be in here will be deleted without warning.
Can someone help me get a decent idea of how to fight a dwarf army with an only beastman army. Here is what I typically use with my beastmen army.Originally Posted by King Ulrik Flamebeard
2 or 3 beast herds (about 20 models in each)
1 unit of chaos hounds (cuz I only have 5 for now)
2 units of 8-10 minotaurs
1 unit of 5 dragon ogres
1 unit of 8-10 centigors
2-4 tuskgor chariots
What typically happens is the dwarf artillary decimates all my chariots and severly hurts my bigger units. The dwarf cross bowmen shoot at a beast herd that doesn't do very much. My ambushing units try to take out the artillary, but by the time I get into close combat my main fighting units are hurt fairly badly so I can't do as much damage as I should. I only want to use the units in the beasts of chaos book, so please don't suggest I start using furies or other chaos units.
if you really want answers post it in the beast of choas army list section
Greetings and happy new year gamers,
I'm new to WHFB and I collect Hordes of Chaos but I'm also expanding into Beast of Chaos my army is going to be largly undivided but I wanted to know I just bought my first beast heard and is it better to go with the 2 hand weapons for the gors or should I go with the hand weapon and the shield?
two hand weapons is the best way to go the shields probably aren't going to help anyway
And even then, the Shields are overpriced by a point. Not that it matters too much, dual-wielding would probably be better anyway. (Now, if you houserule it so that taking a Shield also means free Light Armour (and the Gor would be correctly costed, then), THAT is another matter entirely...)
Use Light, Beasts, Metal instead of Heavens
NecroLords: Use at least one Death Mage
Brets: Use Peasants&Damsels
Skaven: Don't use Skryre SAD
I'm making this thread to discuss the rare choices available to a beasts of chaos list.
While core and special choices can vary greatly, depending upon your general be it beast, mortal, daemonic, or doombull, the rare choices remain constant.
Please comment or criticize as you will; while I am a veteran 40K player, I have only returned to fantasy recently after a long hiatus, so I obviously will make some mistakes.
Too expensive to be a line breaker (unless you design your entire list around them), and liable to draw a lot of missle fire, dragon ogres remain one of the faster and certainly one of the most durable of the beast units.
I think that are best suited to being placed along a flank, using their greater speed(comparable to other beast units) to get into position for devestating flank charges when the enemy is tied up fighting your other larger units.
Upgrades: I'd always give these guys light armour. They cost so much already, the few points for the armour seem like a pitance and in combination with their scaly skin save, at least they can have some decent protection from light missle(arrows, slings, sharp stuff) fire and a halfway decent save in hth provided they aren't fighting folks with great weapons.
An extra hand weapon or great weapons? Well, the great weapon is nice if you think you might be fighting a lot of chariots since it will raise their strength to 7.
But for the most part I think it is overkill and you'll be better served with an extra attack on initiative.
Models: Unfortunately for my part at least, I've yet to find a dragon ogre model that I really liked the look of, although I can say that I like the lower body parts of the 'old' dragon ogre models better than the new. But its the upper body parts that always lose my attention.
In part this is perhaps because the model designers were too focused upon the 'ogre' part of the creatures name and use a face and torso belonging on one of the old blocky 'football holligan' ogres. Personally I'd like a more repitilian and sinuous upper body and face. Perhaps a decent convesrion could be possible, I don't know.
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
A bigger, badder dragon ogre who causes terror. How can you go wrong? Well, the big price tag and the extra slot taken up by the shaggoth give a small clue.
Once again though, I'd tend to use him as a flanker rather than taking enemy regiments head on. Get a nice big unit of beasts up front holding the line and the shaggoth slaughtering rank and file from the side.
As always be wary of missle fire, although the higher toughness and better save counteract the 'large target' disadvantage. Be especially wary of war machines like cannons and use terrain to shield your advance when possible.
Much of what I've already said concerning weapon choices for the dragon ogres, applies here. Always upgrade to light armour, and only equip the great weapon if you plan to go monster or chariot hunting, otherwise take your 2nd hand weapon and go slaughter rank and file.
One interesting thing about the shagooth is the option to upgrade to a shaggoth champion. On the surface this seems great, as you now have a general for your beasts list with a Ld of 9 and whos statline puts pretty much every other general to shame.
However, lets look at the downsides.
No magic items whatsoever. On any character and especially your general this is a big ouch.
Counts as a lord and a rare choice. This isn't such a big deal, as you were going to buy a general anyway and with the points your spending on the shaggoth you'll probably have to forgo taking at least one rare choice anyways.
No brayhorn. This is the biggie and a disadvantage you'll face if you take a doombull, mortal or daemonic general. No brayhorn means no ambush and you'll have lost one of the great things about the BoC list.
This isn't the end of the world, but it certainly requires a change in both army composition and tactics. Since you can't count on ambushing units coming from behind, you'll have to build your army for either speed or durability, preferably both.
As these marks can only go on the shaggoth champion we have to consider them from the point of view of your army general.
Khorne: Frenzy, free dispel at a fairly high point cost considering the potential disadvantages of frenzy. I'd only take it if you plan to build your entire BoC list around khorne.
Nurgle: An extra wound for a very high cost. Worth it? Again, only if you plan to build a nurgle based BoC list.
Slannesh: Always strikes first. Wow. Give this guy the great weapon, send him after the biggest baddest monster on the enemy side and let him go. Alternatively, give him two hand weapons and this and slaughter ALL rank and file. Very, very much worth it.
Tzeentch: High point cost to become a Lvl2 tzeentch spell caster. Personally I'd take it for the destructive potential of a Shaggoth with Orange Fire in play.(Reroll all hits, wounds and saves.)
You can't be certain to get that spell though and as always magic is iffy. Also the only way to give a shaggoth a ward save, through Yellow Fire. Worth it? Perhaps, but you had better buy more shamans or tzeentch champions to get magical superiority to enable you to get those spells off.
Models: I like the present shaggoth model much more than the dragon ogres, but still feel that some converting would be in order. Not much present choice in the model line obviously.
Giants appear in many other lists, so I can speed through a bit to focus on how it works in a BoC list.
Having a model with Ld 10 and stubborn, and ignore little un panic. in a BoC list is an absolute miracle. Finally you have a unit that won't bail when the going gets tough.
For this reason alone I am going to go against my earlier inclinations to use it as a flank unit. March the giant right up the middle. It won't break and can hold the line long enough for your ambushing units to arrive and flank or rear charge whatever unit he is holding up. Any use of his funky giant attacks is strictly gravy at this point.
Unless he gets killed by warmachine or missle fire on the way in. There's not much you can do about either being both large and not overwhelmingly fast. Still, beyond the use of terrain, there's something you can do.
Take two giants.
Yep, get called a cheese monkey, spend a lot of points and use up two rare choices.
But in your defense, BoC isn't that overpowering of a list to begin with, the rest of your army is relatively cheap so you can bulk up on beasts and seriously two giants is twice as cool as one. You can say they are brothers and have all sorts of 'witty' giant banter thrown back and forth between the two.
Upgrade(s) Well there's only one:mutant monstrousity. The scaly save won't protect you from war machines and its defense against even little missle fire is minimal. However, you get two advantages from spending the points here.
One you can model you giant up even wackier than usual, and on all the body mass of a giant, thats pretty nuts.
Two, you can now deliberately fall on your opponents units if you roll well. Is this a good thing? Well, the falling attack is onw of the most deadly attacks the giant can have provided you fall the right way, and this allows you to. However, you're taking an exta wound every time you do so.
Worth it? Maybe, but just barely. Personally I'd only buy it if you are really into the modelling factor.
Models: A fair selection, with even more coming out soon with conversion opportunites galore.
Spawn of Chaos
The BoC version of an unbreakable unit with the advantage of being pretty dangerous in HtH provided they aren't fighting folks with Str 5 or better.
With their random movement, taking them anywhere other than straight up the center is a gamble, and due to their durability to standard missle fire, this is probably where they should go. Just try to use them to tie up huge blocks and avoid folks with great weapons or lances(unless you get to charge them--unusual) and you should do fine.
Nurgle: Lots of poisioned attacks plus you're now free to make your spawn model even more disgusting for a moderate price. Worth it? I'd say so, but then you're spawn should be going after higher toughness enemies to get the most use out of this and this can be dangerous.
Slaanesh: Extra movement. Buy it. Buy it now. Probably the best upgrade since it negates one of the main weaknesses of the unit.
Khorne: Str 5 attacks. Perfect for chopping through heavy infantry and medium cavalry. Probably worth the points.
Tzeenth: Breath weapon. Interesting in that there is very little ranged weapon potential in a BoC list. Worth it? Random movement and a low str on the breath weapon lead me to want to say no, but it might come in handy as a 'secret weapon.'
Models: There are a number out there, but this is one model that you'd probably be better off making on your own due to the model cost and the amount you're going to field.
With chaos spawn I'd say, if you're going to take one, take four instead in a similar fashion to the way I recommended taking two chaos giants if you were going to take one. One spawn simply isn't going to make it to hth and do what you want of it. Obviously you're not going to able to take both, so you've got to consider whether spawn or gaints are your thing.
Dogs of War
Take a wacky mercenary unit to suplement your BoC list. There are some suggestions in the codex as to what units might join a BoC force, but I'm going to wait until I read more about all of them before giving you my two cents on them.
EDIT: Thread now stuck by request.
I use lots of Chaos monsters regularly, and I have to agree with most of what you say. There are, of course a couple of points I'd like to add;Apart from monsters and chariots, which aren't all that common, the main reason for taking great weapons is to deal with knights. Now since most knights are only toughness 3 or 4, you don't need the great weapon for the strength. What you do need it for is knocking down that ludicrous armour save a peg or four.Originally Posted by Grey
With many chaos great weapon users having a boosted strength of 6 or 7, that's -3 or -4 to a knight's save, bringing it down to a more sensible 5 or 6+ (occasionally 4+). This results in many more dead knights! Because most fights against knights are resolved in the first round of combat with them, the fact that great weapons force you to strike last doesn't really make any difference. Either you'll get charged by the knights and strike last (and probably lose the combat), or you'll charge and strike first.
Of course, as you said Grey, if you aren't going to be facing any of these sorts of enemies and instead are taking on hordes of lightly armoured enemies (goblins, skaven, empire infantry) then two hand weapons is a much more efficient choice.Not sure about this one, I guess it could be useful, but because the spawn has a random number of attacks I can't see most players getting more than half a dozen poison hits during the game (unless they're rather lucky).Originally Posted by GreyAgreed, by far the best upgrade for spawns. I just wish I could use it in my Tzeentch horde...Originally Posted by GreyPretty good for the few points it costs. Always worth taking when you have some points spare (which doesn't happen often in Khorne armies, lets be honest!)Originally Posted by GreyForget it, this is most certainly the worst upgrade of all. I think Great Tzeentch should smite whoever came up with this! I have tested this upgrade extensively against many different enemies before reaching the conclusion that it's crap.Originally Posted by Grey
For the flame breath attack to do any real damage, the situation must meet certain criteria; the target must be of low toughness and have little or no armour (i.e. not dwarfs!), be a large block of troops and be at just the right range to get maximum coverage from the flame template. This doesnâ€™t happen often anyway and usually only once a game before the Spawn gets into combat and either stays there or dies.
Of course, even if you do get a decent shot off against the right sort of target, half the hits won't wound and a few of those will probably get saved. It could at least've been an attack that allows no armour saves or something, as it is in fact, magical fire!...
Last edited by DavidWC09; December 9th, 2006 at 06:15. Reason: for indexing
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Fluff Master Clan initiate.
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New 40K missions here.
the tzeencth breath weapon i have found to be very effective at clearing skirms and light cav although as you said it only works in some situations, like yourself i play tzeencth and the upgrade is better than no upgrade. i also fine that once you have displayed the big template it soaks up alot of magic and missiles while my other units like my bestigor and minotaurs get into combat without to many loses.
'work to live do not live to work'
not deliberately bumping this or anything, but shouldnt this be stickied?
I really can't think of anything witty to say.