Warhammer Armies: Beastmen (BoC 6.5)

[Phoenix]

Beasts got really screwed over by the introduction of 7th ed, the poor effort put into their FAQ by GW, and the separation of Chaos. SO im finally doing something i've been wanting to do for quite a while... re-write the book myself! (Before GW get their grubby herohammer paws on it and ruin it for everyone )

Baiscally im going through the current army book and typing it up in MS Word, making edits as i go, as i see fit. The general idea is that someone who has never played with Beasts before, but who has played lots of warhammer, would be able to pick up my version of the BoC book and look through it, without knowing it wasn't written by GW. So far i think im doing ok

Now looking for list makers, rewarded with Rep!

Edit: ok, to anyone who followed my link to get here, firstly thanks! Im going make a quick list providing shortcuts to the key parts of this thread:

This post: initial plan overview and ideas (also see following few posts)

New unit idea: Huntgors

Brayhorns a great idea, difficult to get right without input so left out for now.

Centigor Lord (Centi version of doombull)

Flicking through the whole thread shouldn't take long if you have time, and may spark some genius ideas

Summary of all changes so far




My initial thoughts when this project began:

So far i have done a 1st draft of Heroes and Core units. To summarise the changes:

BeastLord: Added Chaos Armour for +9pts as an equipment option.

Great Bray Shaman: -

DoomBull: Bloodkine may change later when i come to special rules


Wargor: Added Chaos Armour for +6pts as an equipment option.

Bray Shaman: -


Beast Herds:
Ungor Ld dropped to 5.

Bestigor Herd: Im thinking about these guys. Possibly Chaos Armour options to be added, as well as shields. All Bestigor have MoCU, and one unit in the army may be upgraded with a god specific mark.


Tuskgor Chariot: -5pts cost, Ungor WS dropped from 4 to 3 (wtf did GW do here!? zero attention to detail...) When a Character rides in the Chariot, the Ungor is displaced and the Bestigor loses his GW, becoming the Driver

Warhounds: + Fast Cavalry (thoughts needed here please)



Looking ahead:
Dropping Ogres and Trolls from Special, meaning another unit idea here may be nice.

Making Centigor better costed, pts wise.

Maybe add Ogre (HW/S) options for Minotaurs, and possibly some sort of ''trollish'' ugrade, (Nurgle mark?)


Reviewing the Shaggoth. Massively. Small review of Dragon Ogres (T5). Chaos armour options for these guys?


Special rules wise: something to fix our rank problem...



Ofcourse, everyones input is welcome! So please add your thoughts / ideas / etc here.

[frozencore]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

BeastLord: Added Chaos Armour for +9pts as an equipment option.

Great Bray Shaman: -

DoomBull: Bloodkine may change later when i come to special rules


Wargor: Added Chaos Armour for +6pts as an equipment option.

Bray Shaman: -

Makes enough sense adding in the chaos armor. It would be nice if shamans could still take it as well. I hear a centigor hero might be joining the ranks, so you might want to include one of those.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Beast Herds:
Ungor Ld dropped to 5.

Why? They are never alone anyway.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Bestigor Herd: Im thinking about these guys. Possibly Chaos Armour options to be added, as well as shields. All Bestigor have MoCU, and one unit in the army may be upgraded with a god specific mark.

Drop their cost by 1 or 2 and maybe give them an option to become skirmishers for 2 or 3 points.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Tuskgor Chariot: -5pts cost, Ungor WS dropped from 4 to 3 (wtf did GW do here!? zero attention to detail...) When a Character rides in the Chariot, the Ungor is displaced and the Bestigor loses his GW, becoming the Driver

You don't need to lose the GW to become the driver, white lion chariot crew have great weapons.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Warhounds: + Fast Cavalry (thoughts needed here please)

They don't have fast cav in the new warriors of chaos book to my memory, so don't give it to them here.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Dropping Ogres and Trolls from Special, meaning another unit idea here may be nice.

This is expected as they were rarely used before. I still say a 3+ save on a t4 3 wound model is pretty tough, but they got rid of those options in the warrior's book for ogres so oh well. Two different equipment options for Centigor might fill the void a bit. A scout unit might be nice.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Making Centigor better costed, pts wise.

This is where fast Cav should probably go. I think giving them the +1 armor for being mounted but loosing the HW+Shield bonus is fair if there are some consolations. And/Or you could give them the option of barding but loosing fast cav, so they could be a sort of medium Cav with a 3+/4+ Save. Or maybe the have the +1 for mounted but if they take shield they lose fast cav. There are lots of options here for a unit entry with two purposes.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Maybe add Ogre (HW/S) options for Minotaurs, and possibly some sort of ''trollish'' ugrade, (Nurgle mark?)

Trading scaly skin for regen would be expensive if that is the way you want to go.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Reviewing the Shaggoth. Massively. Small review of Dragon Ogres (T5). Chaos armour options for these guys?

To avoid confusion you could copy the new rules in the warriors book.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Special rules wise: something to fix our rank problem...

"Beast herds always form up to get rank bonuses from combats."

[ZombieCancer]

I love the motivation you have phoenix and i agree, ever since 7th ed, i have been playing my VC about 95% of the time, and only really bring my BOC out during a campaign when we need a bad guy.
I like the list you got going and here is my notes and input to your ideas.
*Input- the magic artifacts need to diffidently be improved on as you stated, and i love our wargores having the ability to wear chaos armor. I think bestigors should not have chaos armor or shields because i like the idea of just fagile beasts with some big weapons, however lowering pts by 1 or 2 would be nice. I like the just 1 mark for this unit as apposed to every unit can be marked, because as i said in a previous post, i play my boc with out marking at all.
I would love to see warhounds count as cavlvery and i agree with dropping ogres, however i feel Trolls are, (although i dont field them) a nessisary unit. perhaps if GW gave them some other down fall the stupid would help them out a lot.

*My thoughts- I would love to see a couple things myself for the new BOC codex.
*Ungor unit with bows, or atleast javelins/ slings. I think it would be awesome, a crappy but annoying skirmishing squad with some range.
*A new hero, either a Centigor as some ppl said, or a type of beast that hasnt been released. Fielding either basic warrior or basic mage for both hero and lord gets old.
*Minotaurs get some sort of bonus for charging, either impact hits or AP, what ever it is, Minotaurs are the strength of my army.

*And last, i would like a new type of rare besides what the other chaos already have. My quick ideas are a beast unit that if any LOTR fans, uraki. They have narly armor and 4's for stats. Equipted with bows , GW, and a shield and sword that offers killing blow. I think this unit would be great and if it moved like the rest of the army would be devistating. I based these units after playing woodelfs to be kind of like their rare elf squad thats badass
--if not for them, some kind of badass troll unit that isnt just a waste of points, some kind of cave troll or whatever, big bad troll that kicks some butt.

These are just my ideas and thoughts on what i would like to see GW bring to the boc

[Phoenix]

Ok, im gonna do this a bit at a time... mainly so i don't go off track lol.

Makes enough sense adding in the chaos armor. It would be nice if shamans could still take it as well. I hear a centigor hero might be joining the ranks, so you might want to include one of those.
Im going to look into additional characters once ive done the 1st draft. A centi hero is definitely on the cards (perhaps negating drunken for the unit he joins? )


Why? They are never alone anyway.
It just makes sense lol. No change to points cost, i just think it fits ''fluff'' wise.

Drop their cost by 1 or 2 and maybe give them an option to become skirmishers for 2 or 3 points.
Im going to look at boosting them to ''elite'' troops (like chaos warriors) rather than have more cheap fodder in a beasts army lol.

You don't need to lose the GW to become the driver, white lion chariot crew have great weapons.
Again, a theme thing... i know its not necessary, but drivers tend to have a whip, hence sensibly would miss out on 2HWs. And when did the new HEs ever make any sense?


They don't have fast cav in the new warriors of chaos book to my memory, so don't give it to them here.
Yeah... my inspiration here was one from long ago. Iirc, they used to have ''gain rank bonus'', and this effectively negated their fast cav. In hindsight, i think ill drop this


This is expected as they were rarely used before. I still say a 3+ save on a t4 3 wound model is pretty tough, but they got rid of those options in the warrior's book for ogres so oh well. Two different equipment options for Centigor might fill the void a bit. A scout unit might be nice.
Scouts... hmmmm....


This is where fast Cav should probably go. I think giving them the +1 armor for being mounted but loosing the HW+Shield bonus is fair if there are some consolations. And/Or you could give them the option of barding but loosing fast cav, so they could be a sort of medium Cav with a 3+/4+ Save. Or maybe the have the +1 for mounted but if they take shield they lose fast cav. There are lots of options here for a unit entry with two purposes.
Great ideas Need to find a way to wrap all this up nicely into a base model + options. As they always had that.. was it attack with 2HWs like on foot? rule that they never got to use, may look into that.

Trading scaly skin for regen would be expensive if that is the way you want to go.
I was thinking along the lines of Troll Vomit attacks lol. Although regen is a nice idea. (Aside: as a house rule, my mates and i agree that the 7th ed regen ''save'' is a poor call on GWs part, so we are adopting the old regen rules.)

To avoid confusion you could copy the new rules in the warriors book.
Agreed, but i havent looked into the WoC version yet. SOme more ''beastly'' edits may be required depending on what GW have done.


"Beast herds always form up to get rank bonuses from combats."
Remember that we still must rank up 4 wide? So no ranks against chariots etc. Im considering something like ''beasts player may choose how wide to rank up'', also preventing stupid skirm. on skirm. situations lol. May be a bit powerful though...


Thanks for all the feedback FC!


---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

Originally Posted by ZombieCancer

I love the motivation you have phoenix and i agree, ever since 7th ed, i have been playing my VC about 95% of the time, and only really bring my BOC out during a campaign when we need a bad guy.
I like the list you got going and here is my notes and input to your ideas.
*Input- the magic artifacts need to diffidently be improved on as you stated, and i love our wargores having the ability to wear chaos armor. I think bestigors should not have chaos armor or shields because i like the idea of just fagile beasts with some big weapons, however lowering pts by 1 or 2 would be nice. I like the just 1 mark for this unit as apposed to every unit can be marked, because as i said in a previous post, i play my boc with out marking at all.
I would love to see warhounds count as cavlvery and i agree with dropping ogres, however i feel Trolls are, (although i dont field them) a nessisary unit. perhaps if GW gave them some other down fall the stupid would help them out a lot.

*My thoughts- I would love to see a couple things myself for the new BOC codex.
*Ungor unit with bows, or atleast javelins/ slings. I think it would be awesome, a crappy but annoying skirmishing squad with some range.
*A new hero, either a Centigor as some ppl said, or a type of beast that hasnt been released. Fielding either basic warrior or basic mage for both hero and lord gets old.
*Minotaurs get some sort of bonus for charging, either impact hits or AP, what ever it is, Minotaurs are the strength of my army.

*And last, i would like a new type of rare besides what the other chaos already have. My quick ideas are a beast unit that if any LOTR fans, uraki. They have narly armor and 4's for stats. Equipted with bows , GW, and a shield and sword that offers killing blow. I think this unit would be great and if it moved like the rest of the army would be devistating. I based these units after playing woodelfs to be kind of like their rare elf squad thats badass
--if not for them, some kind of badass troll unit that isnt just a waste of points, some kind of cave troll or whatever, big bad troll that kicks some butt.

These are just my ideas and thoughts on what i would like to see GW bring to the boc

Thanks for your input Building (on the thoughts in my head) on what FC said about a new special unit... im definitely going to look into some sort of special (scouting?) unit with bows or.. something...

I should be able to find a way to make trolls more beastly

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

One thing that has just sprung to mind... How about making Beast Herds a mainstay unit? Like Skaven Clanrats. You must have atleast X Beast herds to be able to include up to X of any unit.

Warhounds could be an exception (as they dont count towards Core) and if you take a Doombull, this rule is removed?

[ZombieCancer]

my only real concern about the beastman as clanrats is i think it could work, but i feel that is more of a skaven thing. If we did choice to have that rule, it be cool to have 1 more core such as the ungor bowmen
*I think the ungors with bows with the scout rule would diffently be the coolest add on
*I feel that Doombull should not force you to take minotaurs as core, and if he keeps this rule i would like to see the words, minotaurs count as core along with the other beast herds. I love my herds and that is the main reason i never field Doombull.

*Besides that everything else looks good so far

[frozencore]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Im going to look at boosting them to ''elite'' troops (like chaos warriors) rather than have more cheap fodder in a beasts army lol.

Hmmm. You could have two different types of units. One of them is bestigors as they are now, but slightly cheaper and with the option for skirmish. I really think this would make people actually take them to fit with the mobility of the rest of the army, yet still allow for the ranked unit if people want to go that way. You could then have an even more elite version that is akin to chosen for warriors, maybe with 2 attacks and chaos armor. The regular bestigors would still be core, but the elite ones could be special or rare depending on how badass they are and what is missing in the force org chart.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Again, a theme thing... i know its not necessary, but drivers tend to have a whip, hence sensibly would miss out on 2HWs. And when did the new HEs ever make any sense?

I see why you want a whip, but it is overly complicated for no reason, and a great weapon is so much better. Besides, the ungor drivers actually have spears, not whips.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Scouts... hmmmm....

Yeah I think scouts would be a big win for beasts, and would fit their sneaky fluff.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Great ideas Need to find a way to wrap all this up nicely into a base model + options. As they always had that.. was it attack with 2HWs like on foot? rule that they never got to use, may look into that.

Yeah they used HW + Shield as if they were on foot(they also could use two hand weapons as if on foot, but didn't have the option for taking a second hand weapon), but a spear as if they were mounted. Pretty pointless as everyone just used the spear on the charge or fled with them if they got charged. I say drop the HW + Shield bonus and give them a +1 for being mounted all the time. As for the equipment options, well, that's going to be a bit more complicated. I would say their current points would be accurate without being too cheap if you gave them the mounted armor bonus and fast cav. +1 point for shields, 2 or 3 for throwing axes (have to check what they cost for marauder horsemen). I am not sure if they should have the option for barding, it would be +2 points and definately make them lose fast cav.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I was thinking along the lines of Troll Vomit attacks lol. Although regen is a nice idea. (Aside: as a house rule, my mates and i agree that the 7th ed regen ''save'' is a poor call on GWs part, so we are adopting the old regen rules.)

I don't think troll vomit would really fit, regen would be better but might cost somthing like 35-45 points. I like the idea of a bull charge sort of mechanic (that zombie said), but seeing as chaos ogres don't have bull charge it might not fly. There was talk about an army-wide rule of every beast unit getting +1S on the charge, but I think that might be way too powerful. Something could be worked out here if you want, but I think minotaurs are pretty good as is. Just drop them in points by 5(maybe?), as that seems to be the trend with monsters (Dragon Ogres, Trolls, and Kroxigor all dropped 5 points if I am remembering correctly). I honestly think they are fine for their points.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Agreed, but i havent looked into the WoC version yet. SOme more ''beastly'' edits may be required depending on what GW have done.

Drop the cost by 5 points, that's all they did I think. They may have also changed the storm rage rule.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Remember that we still must rank up 4 wide? So no ranks against chariots etc. Im considering something like ''beasts player may choose how wide to rank up'', also preventing stupid skirm. on skirm. situations lol. May be a bit powerful though...

Yeah, I remember. I put my response in quotes, because that was supposed to be the sentence for the solution.

"When charging or charged, if the unit would normally form up less than the number required for rank bonus, then it forms up to get rank bonuses from combat."

Beasts are close to my heart, and this is a fun opportunity to take a look at what we could do to make the armybook what we think it should be

[BlackSheep]

I also think scouts would be a wonderful and quite appropriate addition to the BoC. I don't understand why they aren't a part of the current book. Giving them the option for some sort of decent range would be awesome--I.E. Not 6 or 8: something good, like 18-24.

Some sort of save for minotaurs would be good, either heavy armour or LA/SH. Even chaos armour without any other options would be appropriate. They guard piles of treasure, there should be some decent armour somewhere in there!

Harpies! Flying Gor! Something like that.

A new monster, something special like a Chimera or something like a monsters and handlers thing. It would be alot of fun.

I really like the idea of Bestigor with the raiders rule, that's half the reason I played a Morghur army. The idea of Chosen Bestigor also sounds like a great idea.

[Stunted_Merc]

Anyone else think a range unit would be fine, if limited? Hell no Chaos use range weaponry really, don't think the Chaos gods hate shooting (Well Khorne might). The new WoC and DoC books specialize and do something different for their takes on Chaos, why not make the Beastmen more how they are portrayed in the fluff, a Guerrilla style force that hit and runs while attacking from shadows and causing lots of Chaos for Chaos' sake.

I've played BoC on and off since their codex, and I hardly used anything from HoC anyways (A few Deamon units a couple of times, about it). I always wondered why a force that is basically always in the woods, battling the Wood Elves frequently, don't share their move through woods rule. Makes little sense, and GW should remedy it.

For range ideas I was thinking our own version of Waywatchers sorta, only you know, evil and beasty. Make it a Rare choice or something, put 0-1 on them, BS4 and some special ability. Beastmen bows would be nice if they were shorter range but S4, and they could still mix it up close if need be being Beastmen (And against similar sized units). Maybe if marked they get a special ability depending on the god, just throwing ideas out there.

I'd like to see GW get creative though, but I got a feeling Beastmen will again get the Chaos "Hand me downs" in terms of quality and what they can use. Though I had an idea for plastic DO's in the BoC first wave, which will give WoC as well some plastics. A rank rule for the Herds would be nice, though I think an option to either take them as Scouts or a ranked unit could be better, that or a few more ranked infantry forces.

Well that was fun, I'll rant more later.

-K

[Phoenix]

Ok, sorry for going a few days with no update, been busy with work

Heres a rough idea for ''ranged'' (came up with this a few days ago)

Other:
Huntgors – special
(Ungor which have been trained in the art of “stealth’’ )


Huntgor: 12pts/model
M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6

Options:
-Promote one Huntgor to a Foe-Piercer (+1WS, +1BS, +1A, +1Ld) for +20 pts.


Equipment: Hand Weapon, ShortBow.

Special Rules: Raiders, Ambush, Scouts, Treetop Fighters.




Treetop fighters rules, im thinking something along the lines of ''ambush from a forest''


Thoughts?

Im also working on Centigor (at the mo: 15pts/model, with options for Heavy Armour, Light Armour, Shields (losing fast cav for any armour). Throwing Axes, Short bows (what centaur dont have bows!?!?!), 2 Hand weapons, and spears)

Furthermore, im thinking Bestigor, can be Skirmishers OR be armoured etc.

[BlackSheep]

Very cool! I think they would do well with some option for combat equipment. Not neccessarily armour, but a few weapons options would be nice.