Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I have never defeated VC (not many other armies either) and wondered if I could get some advice? Here is my army (beginning).
-Lord at Pegasus 266
-Wyrmlance, Gromril Great helmet, gauntlet of duel, grail wow, virtue of dicipline, shield
-Twilight banner, grail wow, warhorse
-Damsel lvl2 160
-horse, chalice, scroll
-Damsel lvl2 150
-horse, potion, scroll
-3x3 Pegasus Knights w musican 525
-5 grailknights full commanded 245
-warbanner (and here I add my BS
-15 skirmishing bowmen 105
-5 Errants full c. 141
-Errantry banner (and here I add one Damsel)
-6 Errants full c 141
-5 Knights of the realm full c. 144
(here I add my second Damsel)
This is my 2 k list..
Please help me just a little bit, some advice of what I should do with the army is all I need
How much can you change your list, and what sort of VC list are you facing? Your army looks very small.
If you can't change it, get two of your units to charge each VC unit, it will need two of them to break them. Get the pegasus knights into flanks and march blocking, they should also be good for taking out corpse carts. Use the lord to kill wraiths and maybe varghulf.
If you can change it, you need bigger units. 6 just isn't enough in a lance to take out undead units. I would drop two of the pegasus units and increase the last one to 4 models as well. Get your lord on just a horse and put him in a unit to support them. You would want most of your units to be 9 models total (leave the grails at 6 though, not in lance formation), so 8+character or 9. You will still need combined charges as well, either pair up a 6 strong unit with a 9 and charge them together, or use your smaller units to move onto the flanks. Combined charges and hitting the flanks is the way to beat them, small units will do nothing against the undead.
Kill the pegasus - as skirmishers they don't negate rank bonus, so you're throwing away 575 pts (including Lord's mount) to get a +2 res from a rear. No vampire will be stupid enough to run around in the open with them, so don't bother.
The lances are too small - 9 is a decent size. Maybe make one lance of 10 with your Lord and BSB in it to make a great big rack off hardcore unit.
I also suggest you don't put Damsels in units - I've never found this works well at all. It severely cuts out their line of sight and forces them into the battle - you don't want your knights to be rear charged with her in the middle of the back rank, you'd just be throwing away points.
Skirmishers, in my opinion at least, aren't worth the points except in larger games. You have thirty inches of range, you don't need to get closer - that alone would make a vampire wary of running around in the open.
Really need to see the VC list for anything more, but hope that helps.
I played against VC yesterday, and he used an army almost like this:
-Vampire lord Lvl 3
Skull staff, helm of commandmen, master of the black arch, forbitten lore, master of ghoul
-Vampire dread knight
Ghoul kin, book of arkhon
-Necromancer at corpse cart, unholy lodestone
1 spell “van helse”, black perriat, power stone
-Wight Lord BSB
Skeletal steed, lance, shield, heavy armor, drakenhoss “hasselhoss” banner or something…
The rest: 3 units of around 20 ghouls (more when he raised…), 6 dire wolf, 8 black knight, 1 Black coach…
Massacred after three roundsL
My biggest problems: First, I’m not always the one who charges, because he moves his round, then charges me with his “van helse” a lot of times. And, when I have charged him (even with 2 units), after combat resolution, he has 4 ghouls left, next round 25… second problem is my leadership and the feartests…
I am planning to remove 2 peg knights units, the skirmishers, some more, and just add a lot of errants (they do not have to take feartests when they charge), and I have to make my Lord better… Is trebuchet good to use?
Thank you for your advice, hope you can give me moreJ
Could just me, but I really don't like your character set ups. It seems to me that the Lord is trying to be a little bit of everything, and specialization/focus is better. I'd say pick a role, duelist, unit breaker or dragonslayer and stick to it. Against VCs, a unit breaker would probably be best. There are lots of ways to do this and I"m not sure which would be best against VCs.
The Damsels are too expensive and probably not doing too much. I'd replace the potion with another dispel scroll and drop both lvl 2 upgrades. I'd keep them on horses, as they take the place of a knight in the middle of the lance (cheaper because a horse for the damsel is less than half the points of a knight and you're taking the damsel any ways) and add MR to the unit.
BSB is fine, although consider dropping the twilight banner and giving him a magical weapon (sword of might is my favorite) + virtue of duty.
It also seems to me that you shouldn't be having problems with fear tests. You have 2 units of Knights Errant (Immune to Psych on the charge) and a unit of Grail knights.
I think you could feasibly do well with the 9 Pegasus Knights, however, you have to be very careful about where you use them. They should always be getting the charge, as they are the fastest thing in both armies, but you have to use them in support of your knight lances. Probably best just to drop them, but keep one unit around and maybe boost it to 4 or 5 models.
As for the skirmishers, I'd keep them around, but maybe drop them to 10. Don't expect them to kill much, but expect them to sacrifice their lives for the greater good...
Well the big advantage I see with skirmishing bowmen is that they won't take up anywhere near as much room in your deployment zone and they are much more manouvrable if it is needed such as when units/combats block LoS. So I would definitely keep them as skirmishers since it costs hardly any points anyway, and perhaps even increase the unit size to 20. S3 bows don't do a lot but when there is a big mass of them, they will kill a few and force the VC player to waste a spell bringing the unit you shoot back to full strength, or even killing wolves.Originally Posted by TakaetunSo you are having trouble dealing with all his magic. The only thing you can really do about that is increase your magic resistance. Also use your pegasus knights to kill the necromancer on corpse cart, he is quite vulnerable. Then when it comes to the important phases, you really need to prioritise what you try to dispel and ignore the rest. Look at which of his units could be danced into combat, and save a couple of dice to stop that. If you have whittled a unit down to nothing, make sure you have dice to stop that unit being resurrected too much and let other invocations go. It can be very tough to get through VC magic phases though.Originally Posted by bornhald
If you're relying on 20 bowshots, hitting about 1/3 of the time and wounding 1/2 or less, before saves, to do some damage to undead, you're in a lot of trouble. With a 3+(?) spell to raise more dead, you've wasted a hundred and fifty or so points to that end.
I also have never found that lances of Knights three wide take up much room either...
You should have four dice - don't waste them stopping him raise a few more skeletons, they'll just end up crumbling back during combat res. Save them fore the danse.
Try impaling his Vampire on the charge - a Lance of nine should be able to get four knights and horses onto him on the charge, which will hurt, even if you lose the lance. It'd be worth it to put a couple wounds on him, it'll change his entire game, even if it only buys you a couple turns grace from magic while he heals himself (they can still do that, can't they?).
It is 4+ to raise more, and never underestimate a couple of kills per turn. This could get rid of a rank bonus, and/or it could get rid of their outnumber bonus which very significantly means you won't be automatically fleeing if you lose combat or fail fear checks. And at the very least it makes him waste a dice to bring the unit back to full strength. Yes, I say waste. Most VC players like their units to be whole, if he is using a dice (with a 50% chance it will fail and he needs a second dice) to raise 1-3 core troops, it means there is less Dance coming your way, less Gaze coming your way, and less raising on other stuff. Let it go, and save your dice for other things.Originally Posted by Takaetun
Then take a Trebuchet - or at the very least, don't make them skirmishing. For extra points, you trade -1 to hit for long range for -1 to hit for moving. A trebuchet will hit more, kill more and my GOD will it freak your opponent out.
Or trade those 150 points for a throwaway unit of six knights who will almost certainly do more damage than those skirmishers, and are much more maneuverable than your normal lances.
Firstly I am not a Bret player so forgive any stupid comments here but I have a lot of experience with various VC builds.
You're problem seems to be in a nutshell that the VC army can take a charge from two of your lances. The solution is to make the lances better at combat res.
I think the unit of Grail knights is too bigger points sink. I know that they are awesome but they are very expensive compared with a normal knight and this might be contributing to the lack of hitting power in the rest of the army.
Keep the pegasus knights - there is nothing that scares the VC more than being outmanuvered and these guys do it really well. Use one unit to hunt the necromancer and the other two to threaten the flanks of the ghoul units. As you are flying cav this will give you the all important breaking ranks with three of them (unit strength six.)
In terms of the fight, prioritise your attacks - it is worth sending two lances of knights with the sole objective of killing the vampire lord. especially as he has no armour save! with him out of the way the game is pretty much yours. Coul you give your lord the gauntlet of challenge and the virtue of being good in challenges and then just charge the vampire's unit with him, and assassinate the vampire?
Watch out for the wights, they can hurt your knights - but not much else in this army can from the look of it! Invest in a lance of chaps with a BSB in and the virtue of duty plus war banner - the static 7 combat res will make block of undead crumble.
You can probably ignore the coach - it won't do much damage to the knights on the charge cos of your saves, and then it is rubbish.
Hope this helps.
Arms are an instrument of evil, No measure for thoughtful men until there fail all other choice but sad acceptance of it.
Sun-Tse : The art of war